Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

My heart tore just a little bit more with every word I read here

But the Buffalo Sabres aren't the Sabers, something I've never been able to find an explanation of.

British spelling wasn't really very common in Canada until the patriotism of the First World War refocused what had been becoming more and more a branch plant of the US on our Britishness.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

My heart tore just a little bit more with every word I read here

As Emerson, Lake and Palmer used to say: C'est la vie!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

But the Buffalo Sabres aren't the Sabers, something I've never been able to find an explanation of.

.

Sabres just looks classier.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

C'est la vie!

Voilà pourquoi je ne m'inquiète jamais trop pour la langue en dépit de la nécessaire adversité. Ça sonne juste et bien. Et puis on a ces obscures intellos cachés à Paris mais toujours au travail, qui s'imposent par leurs modes de pensée et leur influence.

D'autre part, t'auras du mal à le croire toi-même, mais j'ai l'impression que l'accent canadien est en train de se banaliser dans les médias par ici. C'est un fait. Je trouve ça génial, après tout ce que ces cons et ces ploucs de Franchouillards ont pu se moquer...

Il y a une sorte de justice qui dépasse tout. Ça aussi, c'est un fait. J'adore. C'est réjouissant.

[ue]

The only ones I routinely have an issue with are -metre words. I always second guess myself if I spell it -re and usually correct to -er because it looks more natural that way to me. Oddly, I don't have this problem with centre or calibre. I immediately get suspicious if I see a Canadian write those words -er. That being said I didn't even know instalment, with one l was even a thing.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I find most people are pretty good with adding the "u" to words. The -er or -re thing is more challenging to people.

Honestly, I blame auto spell check, including the one used by this forum. You write centre, and it has a red line on it. You write center, and it doesn't. Over time, people get used to it.

I agree. I do think computer technology has worsened the trend. I don't remember if it still does this, but it used to be that Microsoft Office automatically came with English (US) spelling and you'd manually have to switch it to English (Canada). On websites which ask you to select a region/language, often there is more than one English option, but the options are US, UK, and sometimes Australia. Occasionally Canada, but it's an oddity. Most people are likely to pick US simply due to assumed similarity via proximity as well as generally being in the same market region, globally-speaking. Then there's spellcheck, as you say, which underlines things as well. There must be a way to switch it on a browser/phone, but I haven't bothered, like I'm sure most.

In theory, I actually prefer the American spelling of most words. The "Orwellian Nuspeak" remark is apt, but it logically makes more sense as we do say centre more like center than centre. I can completely understand why this is problematic for Quebeckers and thus they use the American spelling. It does look too similar to French. Probably some side-effect of the French conquest hundreds of years ago forever ingraining the superiority of French in English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

The only ones I routinely have an issue with are -metre words. I always second guess myself if I spell it -re and usually correct to -er because it looks more natural that way to me. Oddly, I don't have this problem with centre or calibre. I immediately get suspicious if I see a Canadian write those words -er. That being said I didn't even know instalment, with one l was even a thing.
.

How about manoeuvre/maneuver?

I believe the Canadian English spelling is manoeuvre. That's also the British IIRC.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Voilà pourquoi je ne m'inquiète jamais trop pour la langue en dépit de la nécessaire adversité. Ça sonne juste et bien. Et puis on a ces obscures intellos cachés à Paris mais toujours au travail, qui s'imposent par leurs modes de pensée et leur influence.

D'autre part, t'auras du mal à le croire toi-même, mais j'ai l'impression que l'accent canadien est en train de se banaliser dans les médias par ici. C'est un fait. Je trouve ça génial, après tout ce que ces cons et ces ploucs de Franchouillards ont pu se moquer...

Il y a une sorte de justice qui dépasse tout. Ça aussi, c'est un fait. J'adore. C'est réjouissant.

En fait, j'avais aussi remarqué que les choses évoluaient en ce sens.

Déjà lors de ma dernière visite en France, il y n'y a pas si longtemps, j'ai trouvé qu'on rencontrait bien moins de gens qui faisaient semblant de ne pas nous comprendre. (C'était plus fréquent lors de mes premiers séjours, il y a près de 25 ans.) Même mes enfants lorsqu'ils étaient très jeunes n'avaient aucune difficulté à se faire comprendre en France.

Avec la francophonisation de l'immigration ici, le français québécois se rapproche tranquillement-pas-vite du français plus international. C'est surtout le cas dans les grands centres urbains. Mes enfants ont des amis Sénégalais, Congolais, Haïtiens, Libanais, Algériens, Marocains, et bien sûr Français, Belges, etc.

Toute cette salade a certes une incidence sur notre façon de parler, même si l'accent québécois et les expressions savoureuses sont loin d'être à la veille de disparaître complètement.

Enfin, il me semble que la francophonie est en passe de devenir un genre d'espace commun mondial (à la fois virtuel et réel), au-delà des frontières. On se parle de plus en plus. J'entends une multitude d'accents francophones au quotidien et je ne suis même pas à Montréal. Le même phénomène s'observe aussi au sein des autres "sphères" linguistiques: anglophone, hispanophone, lusophone...

[ue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

How about manoeuvre/maneuver?

I believe the Canadian English spelling is manoeuvre. That's also the British IIRC.

Yeah, if I saw manoeuvre, I'd assume it was a French speaker mixing up spelling. I didn't realize that was accepted in English; it makes zero sense with our grammar. I use maneuver.

I think, at least here, there is strong emphasis on words like colour, cheque, centre, etc in primary school but more sophisticated words aren't really taught the difference and so when they're eventually come across, it's the American way, and people don't even realize there's an alternative.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

En fait, j'avais aussi remarqué que les choses évoluaient en ce sens.

Déjà lors de ma dernière visite en France, il y n'y a pas si longtemps, j'ai trouvé qu'on rencontrait bien moins de gens qui faisaient semblant de ne pas nous comprendre. (C'était plus fréquent lors de mes premiers séjours, il y a près de 25 ans.) Même mes enfants lorsqu'ils étaient très jeunes n'avaient aucune difficulté à se faire comprendre en France.

Avec la francophonisation de l'immigration ici, le français québécois se rapproche tranquillement-pas-vite du français plus international. C'est surtout le cas dans les grands centres urbains. Mes enfants ont des amis Sénégalais, Congolais, Haïtiens, Libanais, Algériens, Marocains, et bien sûr Français, Belges, etc.

Toute cette salade a certes une incidence sur notre façon de parler, même si l'accent québécois et les expressions savoureuses sont loin d'être à la veille de disparaître complètement.

Enfin, il me semble que la francophonie est en passe de devenir un genre d'espace commun mondial (à la fois virtuel et réel), au-delà des frontières. On se parle de plus en plus. J'entends une multitude d'accents francophones au quotidien et je ne suis même pas à Montréal. Le même phénomène s'observe aussi au sein des autres "sphères" linguistiques: anglophone, hispanophone, lusophone...

Translation test time!


Actually, I've also noticed that things are evolving like this.

During my last visit to France, it wasn't that long ago, I found I encountered substantially fewer people who acted as if they didn't understand us. (It was more common during my first trips there, close to 25 years ago). My kids have never had any difficulty being understood in France, even when they were very young.

As more French-speaking immigrants come here, francophone Quebeckers are slowly-but-surely tapping into a more international kind of French. It's definitely the case in the larger urban centres. My kids have friends from Senegal, the Congo, Haiti, Liberia, Algeria, Morocco and of course France and Belgium, etc.

This cornucopia is influencing the way we speak, even if the Quebec accent and the colourful expressions we use are far from disappearing (No Google! I admit defeat with the expression: "à la veille de disparaître complètement").

Finally, it seems to me that the French-speaking world is becoming a type of commons without borders. We speak to each other more and more. I understand all kinds of French accents and I don't even live in Montreal. You see the same phenomenon in other linguistic spheres: English, Spanish, Portuguese...


If I can trouble you or anyone else, how about some corrections?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

J'entends une multitude d'accents francophones au quotidien et je ne suis même pas à Montréal. Le même phénomène s'observe aussi au sein des autres "sphères" linguistiques: anglophone, hispanophone, lusophone...

Originally Posted by rousseau

I understand all kinds of French accents and I don't even live in Montreal. You see the same phenomenon in other linguistic spheres: English, Spanish, Portuguese...

Actually, I'm not so sure about this happening in English. The generalized white American accent of the western US is currently the world's lingua franca via Hollywood and the news media, but otherwise people living wherever they do in the US/Canada or UK/Ireland rather famously (well, famously to people interested in linguistics, anyway) don't understand different accents in English all that well.


• Video Link

It sounds from your description like there's a "coming together" of various French accents in Quebec, but that's not really happening here because currently no large movements of English-speakers to other English-speaking countries or areas are happening.

I'll never forget a while ago encountering a guy from Kentucky who now lives in Stratford. He went to my next-door neighbour's house, found that she wasn't there, saw me working in my garden, and asked if I could let her know that he'd stopped by.

I could barely understand a word he'd said, and thought he was putting on a hillbilly accent due to some kind of inside joke he shared with my neighbour. But he was used to people being taken aback by how he spoke, and repeated what he'd said more slowly and less Kentucky.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

This cornucopia is influencing the way we speak, even if the Quebec accent and the colourful expressions we use are far from disappearing (No Google! I admit defeat with the expression: "à la veille de disparaître complètement").

You actually got the meaning!

"est loin d'être à la veille de disparaître complètement" is a bit convoluted:

"is far from being on the eve of disappearing completely"

basically "not happening anytime soon"

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

. I understand all kinds of French accents and I don't even live in Montreal.?

This I think is the only one where you're a bit off. I meant that I hear different accents all the time, not that I understand them.

"Entendre*" in French is to hear. To understand is "comprendre".

In Spanish, "entender" can mean to understand, though.

You're quite good!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Actually, I'm not so sure about this happening in English. The generalized white American accent of the western US is currently the world's lingua franca via Hollywood and the news media, but otherwise people living wherever they do in the US/Canada or UK/Ireland rather famously (well, famously to people interested in linguistics, anyway) don't understand different accents in English all that well.


• Video Link

I'll never forget a while ago encountering a guy from Kentucky who now lives in Stratford. He went to my next-door neighbour's house, found that she wasn't there, saw me working in my garden, and asked if I could let her know that he'd stopped by.

I could barely understand a word he'd said, and thought he was putting on a hillbilly accent due to some kind of inside joke he shared with my neighbour. But he was used to people being taken aback by how he spoke, and repeated what he'd said more slowly and less Kentucky.

I still think you're a bit further along with mutual comprension than the francophonie is. Canadian French is the "Southern US" or the Glasgow of the francophonie, and we don't have nearly as much media and cultural impact in France as these two accents do in the heartlands of the anglosphere. Although, as mousquet noted, our presence in France and in the francophonie is growing, and we're becoming a permanent fixture of the scenery now.

Regarding that video, it could be that the Scottish guy is letting loose and doesn't care, or it may be that Lily Tomlin is a bit older and not as quick, or even a tad hard of hearing. Some people modify their accents when speaking to people they assume are unitiated, and some don't.

Some people also exaggerate their colloquialisms to prove a point when they're with the uninitiated.

[mousquet]

There are so many awesome subtleties in languages...

In French, "entendre" is like - yeah, ok, I can hear you, right? But, I still got something to say here.

Écouter is fundamentally more caring, literally "listening to [something]".

Comprendre is simply fully understanding, totally appreciating.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

It sounds from your description like there's a "coming together" of various French accents in Quebec, but that's not really happening here because currently no large movements of English-speakers to other English-speaking countries or areas are happening.
.

That's an interesting point. You guys do have a diminishing (my impression) number of European anglophones arriving, and only a smattering of Americans. Then you've got people from Jamaica and some of the West Indies who are anglophones. In my experience African francophones on average are slightly more francophone than people from the Indian subcontinent are anglophone (even though the latter who come to Canada tend to speak English). This is also true for people from North Africa and Lebanon, whose French is often very advanced. (For the Lebanese and other Middle Easterners who are Christian, French is often spoken like a co-first language with Arabic.)

[Acajack]

My kids have a few Facebook friends who live in Europe, and they get a good laugh when the Euros post pictures of themselves and their friends over there comment with "belle gosse"....

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You actually got the meaning!

Whoa, thanks.

Originally Posted by Acajack

"est loin d'être à la veille de disparaître complètement" is a bit convoluted:

"is far from being on the eve of disappearing completely"

basically "not happening anytime soon"

Okay, so maybe "...even if the Quebec accent and the colourful expressions we use are not going to disappear anytime soon."

Originally Posted by Acajack

This I think is the only one where you're a bit off. I meant that I hear different accents all the time, not that I understand them.

"Entendre*" in French is to hear. To understand is "comprendre".

In Spanish, "entender" can mean to understand, though.

You're quite good!

Yep, I hesitated on "entendre" and got it confused with Spanish. And thanks!

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's an interesting point. You guys do have a diminishing (my impression) number of European anglophones arriving, and only a smattering of Americans. Then you've got people from Jamaica and some of the West Indies who are anglophones. In my experience African francophones on average are slightly more francophone than people from the Indian subcontinent are anglophone (even though the latter who come to Canada tend to speak English). This is also true for people from North Africa and Lebanon, whose French is often very advanced. (For the Lebanese and other Middle Easterners who are Christian, French is often spoken like a co-first language with Arabic.)

It would be interesting to get a French/Francophone analogue to the following cities, either in Canada or the rest of the world:

Anglosphere Tier 1: English is the official language. The vast majority of residents speak English at home. You cannot get by without speaking English.
e.g. most small towns in English Canada.

Anglosphere Tier 2: English is the official/de facto language, and the language spoken by the plurality, but there is a significant population of people who speak another unofficial language such that you can lead a parallel life in that language and not speak English at all. e.g. Los Angeles, Richmond BC, Singapore, Belize City.

Anglosphere Tier 3: English is an official language, but the majority of people speak another language at home. While many people speak English fluently, a significant portion of the population have no English skills whatsoever. e.g. Hong Kong, Mumbai, Johannesburg. (Edit: maybe some of the Tier 2 examples are really tier 3).

Anglosphere Tier 4: English is not the official language, but a majority of people have some fluency in English and English has been a historical language of a significant minority. e.g. Montreal.

Anglosphere Tier 5: English is not the official language, but a majority of residents are fluent in English as a second language. You can get by without speaking a word of the official language, and only speaking English. e.g. Amsterdam, Copenhagen.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I still think you're a bit further along with mutual comprension than the francophonie is. Canadian French is the "Southern US" or the Glasgow of the francophonie, and we don't have nearly as much media and cultural impact in France as these two accents do in the heartlands of the anglosphere. Although, as mousquet noted, our presence in France and in the francophonie is growing, and we're becoming a permanent fixture of the scenery now.

Regarding that video, it could be that the Scottish guy is letting loose and doesn't care, or it may be that Lily Tomlin is a bit older and not as quick, or even a tad hard of hearing. Some people modify their accents when speaking to people they assume are unitiated, and some don't.

Some people also exaggerate their colloquialisms to prove a point when they're with the uninitiated.

I think I would mostly disagree on the English side of the equation. North Americans have a general idea of Scottish sounding like the Fat Bastard in that Austin Powers movie, but that's the equivalent of Canadian or American-style Chinese diner food--nobody actually speaks like that in Scotland, and nobody eats sweet-and-sour chicken balls in China.

The Glaswegian in the video is just speaking like he normally speaks. I've watched a bit more of that episode, and at one point both the other American, the director Ron Howard, and the Australian guy admit that they don't understand much of what the Glaswegian is saying either.

I'm quite certain that 19 out of 20 North Americans on the street wouldn't understand the guy if you stopped them and showed them this video. The Glasgow accent is notorious for being hard to understand.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

It would be interesting to get a French/Francophone analogue to the following cities, either in Canada or the rest of the world:

Anglosphere Tier 1: English is the official language. The vast majority of residents speak English at home. You cannot get by without speaking English.
e.g. most small towns in English Canada.

Anglosphere Tier 2: English is the official/de facto language, and the language spoken by the plurality, but there is a significant population of people who speak another unofficial language such that you can lead a parallel life in that language and not speak English at all. e.g. Los Angeles, Richmond BC, Singapore, Belize City.

Anglosphere Tier 3: English is an official language, but the majority of people speak another language at home. While many people speak English fluently, a significant portion of the population have no English skills whatsoever. e.g. Hong Kong, Mumbai, Johannesburg. (Edit: maybe some of the Tier 2 examples are really tier 3).

Anglosphere Tier 4: English is not the official language, but a majority of people have some fluency in English and English has been a historical language of a significant minority. e.g. Montreal.

Anglosphere Tier 5: English is not the official language, but a majority of residents are fluent in English as a second language. You can get by without speaking a word of the official language, and only speaking English. e.g. Amsterdam, Copenhagen.

Nice summation. But Singapore is definitely Tier 3 in your categorization, not Tier 2.