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  #3001  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 1:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
As a small business owner with two employees, I hate stats. It means that our family as the mañana r group has to go to work to make sure that there is income so my employees can stay home and get paid. One of them makes basically as much money as me. It's not really fair at all.
What's your point exactly? Stat holidays shouldn't exist? The one "basically" makes as much as you, in other words, you still make more.
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  #3002  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 2:05 AM
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Originally Posted by *Stardust* View Post
In the end, you will always have people abusing the system. It's important to have checks and balances for these sorts of things. I don't think it's unreasonable to require a doctor's note for more than one day off.

You're right. Union jobs have all the perks and benefits but that doesn't mean people in non unionized private sector work aren't entitled to nothing. Life happens, people get sick no matter how "healthy" you are.
This touches on another subject.. the sheer number of people who clog doctor's offices and hospital ERs to get sick notes for their employers is insane. Instead of staying at home, resting, and getting better, they're sitting around in the medical system exposing other patients to their illness, all because their employer doesn't trust that they are sick.

I hope that as part of this labour law change, it becomes illegal for employers to request verification of illness unless it's more than two days. Sure, some people are going to abuse the system and play hooky, but as long as you limit the number of sick days to say, 5 or 6 per year, you'll limit that problem.
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  #3003  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 2:15 AM
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So you don't believe in vacation or stat days either? It's exactly the same thing.
Sorry I know I can't win with people who expect everything to be handed to them with a bow on top for nothing so I end my involvement with this portion on the conversation here.
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  #3004  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 3:36 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
This touches on another subject.. the sheer number of people who clog doctor's offices and hospital ERs to get sick notes for their employers is insane. Instead of staying at home, resting, and getting better, they're sitting around in the medical system exposing other patients to their illness, all because their employer doesn't trust that they are sick.

I hope that as part of this labour law change, it becomes illegal for employers to request verification of illness unless it's more than two days. Sure, some people are going to abuse the system and play hooky, but as long as you limit the number of sick days to say, 5 or 6 per year, you'll limit that problem.
At the end of the day I think the only reasonable way to view this is to accept that legislators have limited knobs and dials they can adjust, and that they should broadly attempt to improve everybody's standard of living.

This means giving people time off, avoiding waste, and trying to discourage the spread of illnesses in the workplace are all good things.

The libertarian perspective that it's unfair to add worker benefits through regulation doesn't jive with the fact that there is a huge amount of regulation around business in Canada. Workers (and consumers) need friendly regulation too in this environment.
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  #3005  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 3:52 AM
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
As a small business owner with two employees, I hate stats. It means that our family as the mañana r group has to go to work to make sure that there is income so my employees can stay home and get paid. One of them makes basically as much money as me. It's not really fair at all.
It's really hard to have a rational conversation with people about this. The fact is, the vast majority of people only see this from the "bottom up" perspective, as employees. They naturally align with the default view that employees need more benefits, because they are employees themselves.

I would caution anyone who doesn't have direct management experience (especially related to shift workers) against making assumptions here. It is typically a total gong show, and it doesn't matter what wages you offer or what benefits you have in place, your bar for what it means to be a "good employee" at this level drops very quickly to bare minimum standards.

It is impossible to understand unless you have been in that environment (especially from a management perspective), and I imagine the vast majority of people here probably have a white collar salary worker perspective where they just don't want their co workers to come to the office sick. The Canadian employment landscape is much much much more complex than that.

It is a "tyranny of the majority" type of situation (much like the default assumption that wealthy people need to pay more taxes), where you have attitudes like, well, why shouldn't some random shift workers make as much as the owners? Except they accept none of the financial risk, they barely accept the minimum required responsibilities, and they are demanding more benefits to protect their already poor work habits. It is an absurd false equivalence where one party is fighting and working to get everybody paid, and one party is trying their hardest to do the minimum while getting the maximum benefit.

There isn't going to be a one size fits all solution to these things for the entire labour market. And while giving out sick days on top of vacation days might make sense in some context (if you are salary, for example), there should be some understanding about why that in some sectors of the economy, increasing benefits in this way is met with trepidation.
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  #3006  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 4:24 AM
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Originally Posted by TownGuy View Post
What's your point exactly? Stat holidays shouldn't exist? The one "basically" makes as much as you, in other words, you still make more.
~10% less than me, the same as one other manager, and more than my parents who now have less of a role. His role is important and I don't deny that. On the other hand, my financial life is on the line in a way that his isn't. I have to make sure the lights stay on and that product comes in and goes out. I'm not against stats for everyone. I just don't think that they make sense in every sector. Small business retail is one of those.
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  #3007  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 4:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
~10% less than me, the same as one other manager, and more than my parents who now have less of a role. His role is important and I don't deny that. On the other hand, my financial life is on the line in a way that his isn't. I have to make sure the lights stay on and that product comes in and goes out. I'm not against stats for everyone. I just don't think that they make sense in every sector. Small business retail is one of those.
You choose to do the work you do. If you want more money, do something else. Thinking that everyone in your field or sector doesn't deserve stat days because of how much money you make is pretty self-centred.
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  #3008  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 4:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
This touches on another subject.. the sheer number of people who clog doctor's offices and hospital ERs to get sick notes for their employers is insane. Instead of staying at home, resting, and getting better, they're sitting around in the medical system exposing other patients to their illness, all because their employer doesn't trust that they are sick.

I hope that as part of this labour law change, it becomes illegal for employers to request verification of illness unless it's more than two days. Sure, some people are going to abuse the system and play hooky, but as long as you limit the number of sick days to say, 5 or 6 per year, you'll limit that problem.
Well said.
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  #3009  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 4:59 AM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
I would caution anyone who doesn't have direct management experience (especially related to shift workers) against making assumptions here. It is typically a total gong show, and it doesn't matter what wages you offer or what benefits you have in place, your bar for what it means to be a "good employee" at this level drops very quickly to bare minimum standards.
I manage shift workers. Your hiring practices and ability to effectively motivate and performance manage determine whether or not you have a "gong show". Limiting paid sick days to 5 per year is fair. Whether or not they are lying is neither here nor there. Generally, there is no point in trying to determine whether or not someone is lying about being sick. You can't really prove anything either way. Doctors are easily fooled and, from what I understand, fear getting in trouble for misdiagnosing workplace-related issues. If the employee is sick on a regular basis, which wouldn't be covered by the 5 days, then you should already be performance managing them out of your business.
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  #3010  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 5:11 AM
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Originally Posted by dreambrother808 View Post
You choose to do the work you do. If you want more money, do something else. Thinking that everyone in your field or sector doesn't deserve stat days because of how much money you make is pretty self-centred.
I was using myself as an example. I don't see it as fair. We all choose what we do. It doesn't make us entitled to anything. Believing so is just as self centred.
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  #3011  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 5:23 AM
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Canada actually has VERY few holiday and vacation days compared to our industrial contemporaries and even many developing countries. In fact in the West we are 3rd last behind only Japan and the US which has no statutory holidays or vacation. Good for Ontario to try to bring our labour laws up to the 21st century.

BC, unfortunately, has very much been going in the opposite direction. Before the Liberals came to power 16 years ago BC had the highest minimum wage rate in the country by a healthy margin but is now second lowest. Unionization is more difficult, the Liberals have gotten rid of the "3 hour rule" where you cannot be scheduled or paid for less than 3 hours as it's now dropped to 2. Also BC is NA's child labour capital as they also dropped the minimum age of work down to an incredible 12 years of age! This of course goes hand-in-hand with BC's high poverty and highest child poverty rate and BC being the only province in the country without a poverty reduction policy or even goals.

Good for Ontario and Alberta for being more progressive and actually caring about our increasing income inequality and rising poverty levels and shame on BC for not even considering poverty an issue even worthy of discussion little alone action.
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  #3012  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 9:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Rollerstud98 View Post
Sorry I know I can't win with people who expect everything to be handed to them with a bow on top for nothing so I end my involvement with this portion on the conversation here.
So basically you have no good reason as to why you taking a vacation, aka getting paid while doing nothing, is any better than someone taking the day off when they're sick.

You do realize we are outliers in the western world as far as many of these things go right? No one is expecting anything outrageous here.
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  #3013  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
This touches on another subject.. the sheer number of people who clog doctor's offices and hospital ERs to get sick notes for their employers is insane. Instead of staying at home, resting, and getting better, they're sitting around in the medical system exposing other patients to their illness, all because their employer doesn't trust that they are sick.

I hope that as part of this labour law change, it becomes illegal for employers to request verification of illness unless it's more than two days. Sure, some people are going to abuse the system and play hooky, but as long as you limit the number of sick days to say, 5 or 6 per year, you'll limit that problem.
I'm always a bit surprised that doctors haven't collectively put their foot down and refused to issue "doctor's note's". Such a waste resources, istm.
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  #3014  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 1:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
Canada actually has VERY few holiday and vacation days compared to our industrial contemporaries and even many developing countries. In fact in the West we are 3rd last behind only Japan and the US which has no statutory holidays or vacation. Good for Ontario to try to bring our labour laws up to the 21st century.

BC, unfortunately, has very much been going in the opposite direction. Before the Liberals came to power 16 years ago BC had the highest minimum wage rate in the country by a healthy margin but is now second lowest. Unionization is more difficult, the Liberals have gotten rid of the "3 hour rule" where you cannot be scheduled or paid for less than 3 hours as it's now dropped to 2. Also BC is NA's child labour capital as they also dropped the minimum age of work down to an incredible 12 years of age! This of course goes hand-in-hand with BC's high poverty and highest child poverty rate and BC being the only province in the country without a poverty reduction policy or even goals.

Good for Ontario and Alberta for being more progressive and actually caring about our increasing income inequality and rising poverty levels and shame on BC for not even considering poverty an issue even worthy of discussion little alone action.
This is very true. And the other western countries (eg that are not the US and Japan) aren't economic basket cases as a result.

This is just another case of Canada being satisfied with being "just a bit better" than the U.S.
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  #3015  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I'm always a bit surprised that doctors haven't collectively put their foot down and refused to issue "doctor's note's". Such a waste resources, istm.
It's because most doctors charge an obscene fee to do nothing other than sign a piece of paper after a 30 second consultation. And there is no insurance coverage for that, it is all out of pocket from the person requesting the note. That has been my experience anyway.

I am also a federal government employee, with 29 years of service and have built up accumulated sick leave of over 250 days.
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  #3016  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 5:48 PM
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This is very true. And the other western countries (eg that are not the US and Japan) aren't economic basket cases as a result.

This is just another case of Canada being satisfied with being "just a bit better" than the U.S.
Canada really isn't a very liberal progressive country, we're a bloody joke and the only reason Canadians take it is because on paper we ARE better than the US.

It ticks me off because we are settling for mediocrity, Canadians appear to be anything but worldly, we really are clueless about the world outside of north america and for all of our bragging about being a more european usa, our policies are still FAR more similar to the godforsaken hellhole below the 49th than anything found in the civilized west such as Europe.
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  #3017  
Old Posted May 15, 2017, 6:37 PM
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Ontario, as in all things, is the trend setter in Canada so hopefully other provinces will follow Ontario's lead.
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  #3018  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 1:09 AM
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Originally posted by ssiguy
Ontario, as in all things, is the trend setter in Canada so hopefully other provinces will follow Ontario's lead.

^^Saskatchewan leads the country on some labour legislation:

Saskatchewan offers 3 weeks vacation after first year of work with an employer (other provinces such as Ontario, PEI & Yukon don't have to give more than 2 weeks even after an employee's long tenure with an employer).

-Saskatchewan Employer work schedules can't be changed without employee consent less than 7 days notice, except for some exceptional industries..

-plus retail workers get over-time pay for shifts that are scheduled using short-shifting (scheduled more than 8 hours in 24 hour period).

It would be a step back for Saskatchewan to follow any of these current Ontario 'trendsetting' legislation.
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  #3019  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 1:17 AM
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I know that SK has some of the most progressive labour rights in the country and didn't mean to undermine that. My point is that when Ontario sets policy or regulations it is often followed by other provinces due to it's economic, political, and media power and being home to 38% of the nation's population and having Ottawa in Ontario means anything from Queen's Park gets immediate attention from Ottawa.

This may sound offensive but what SK very rarely makes the news and very rarely effects national policy. The last time SK did anything that had national repurcutions was it introducing universal healthcare in the 1950s and the idea quickly spread.
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  #3020  
Old Posted May 16, 2017, 1:28 AM
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^^too bad the rest of Canada doesn't have a clue what it's missing

Rest of Canada should start by getting its act together & get rid of Daylight Savings Time just like Sask
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