HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Transportation & Infrastructure


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #721  
Old Posted May 27, 2017, 5:32 PM
Mary Katherine Mary Katherine is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1
what about putting rail in the median - if there is enough excess median room for 2 traffic lanes, should be able to accommodate passenger rail tracks.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #722  
Old Posted May 27, 2017, 8:04 PM
CrossedTheTracks CrossedTheTracks is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 354
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Katherine View Post
what about putting rail in the median - if there is enough excess median room for 2 traffic lanes, should be able to accommodate passenger rail tracks.
Too-steep grades in a few sections, and depending on how fast we want that train to go, probably some too-tight curves as well. But if it could be used for 80% of the distance... would be interesting to cost out.
__________________
"Skyscraper, skyscraper, scrape me some sky..." - Dennis Lee
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #723  
Old Posted May 27, 2017, 8:14 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Katherine View Post
what about putting rail in the median - if there is enough excess median room for 2 traffic lanes, should be able to accommodate passenger rail tracks.
That's actually a half decent idea.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #724  
Old Posted May 28, 2017, 4:53 PM
mytwocents mytwocents is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Calgary
Posts: 113
Does anybody know information about the future Banff train station? Open houses or presentations?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #725  
Old Posted May 28, 2017, 5:32 PM
Jaspertf Jaspertf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
The CP line is single track almost the entire way, there's no way you wouldn't need to widen embankments and trenches. These wouldn't have been built with the future in mind with modern technology, so I imagine a few places it would be impossible to widen and need a new alignment anyway.

Take this spot:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.18309...!3m1!1e3?hl=en

I'm no railway engineer, but that looks like it would be very difficult/expensive to stabilise to build a second track through, as the track is already precariously balanced on a loose slope. Multiply that by a dozen other spots along the way and you can reach megabucks pretty quickly. If the CP line was being built today, I'm sure it would look a lot different.

I read one of the consultant reports on HSR in Alberta a while ago, and in that they discussed the feasibility of doubling up the mainline there for parts of it. It said that even if they wanted to do this, because it was just built with whatever dirt they could find nearby rather than with proper construction materials, they couldn't rely on it's structural integrity. So they would have to build the second track on a second graded route adjacent to the existing track, rather than just widening the existing grade.


For the TCH, I'm sure there will be a few bridges that must be changed, but some will have to be replaced over time anyway. Lots of the rest of it looks future proofed - AB highways future proofs the crap out of everything it builds these days - the SWRR and Highway 2 have been built with 16 lanes in mind! So when I look at something like this overpass, I'm reasonably confident it was built with future expansion in mind.

p.s. - Don't get me wrong here, I love the idea of a rail to Banff and beyond, as well as elsewhere in Alberta and think it sucks that we are in the situation we are in with no passenger rail. I just think it's going to be very tough to do, and in the interim we shouldn't just shut down the sensible option of increasing road capacity to Banff.
Being a Civil/Structural Engineer I probably know more than most people and understand what needs to be done and built to achieve passenger rail in Alberta.

The Specifications between General Rail and High Speed Rail are exponentially different, I do not propose and will never encourage High Speed Rail in Alberta at this time nor for the next several decades. Yes there will be re-grading required to twin the track, but it depends what train speed you are looking for. As a start point you would share the track with freight which would restrict speed to about 160km/h, current GO Transit and VIA trains are able to reach 100km/h on some sections of track. The structural integrity of the track bed in southern Alberta is pretty good, in northern Alberta it sits on muskeg and other poor quality materials. If it is the same Consultants report I read, it talks about extending HSR to Fort McMurray, which is where the poor ground conditions are, which brings confusion in on the Calgary-Edmonton HSR debate.

For the TCH, the majority of the interchange bridges are designed for an additional lane each way in the median, but not much more beyond that. when I was driving Highway 2 every week for a few months I would look at the over bridges when I could, the only interchange that needs to be completely rebuilt is Olds. All the river crossing bridges on both would have to be rebuilt.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #726  
Old Posted May 28, 2017, 5:37 PM
Jaspertf Jaspertf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Katherine View Post
what about putting rail in the median - if there is enough excess median room for 2 traffic lanes, should be able to accommodate passenger rail tracks.
No, the median is reserved for additional highway lanes, and the gradient of Scot Lake Hill is far too steep for even lighter passenger trains. Also every over bridge would have to be re-built as the central piers would have to be removed to fit rail in the middle, on Crowfoot the CTrain speed is only 80km/h. Then there are the many other twisty sections and little hills.

Nice thought but actually totally impractical.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #727  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 11:47 PM
Jaspertf Jaspertf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 130
Did a quick double check on my numbers, there are currently 2 rail projects being constructed in the US, FasTracks and Brightline.
FasTracks - US$30mil/km, installation of new tracks in existing right of way with overhead electrification.
Brightline - US$4.7mil/km, ballast and track renewal.

Union Pearson Express in Toronto excluding the airport spur - CA$11.5mil/km (2012), ballast and track renewal.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #728  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2017, 6:00 PM
mytwocents mytwocents is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Calgary
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaspertf View Post
Did a quick double check on my numbers, there are currently 2 rail projects being constructed in the US, FasTracks and Brightline.
FasTracks - US$30mil/km, installation of new tracks in existing right of way with overhead electrification.
Brightline - US$4.7mil/km, ballast and track renewal.

Union Pearson Express in Toronto excluding the airport spur - CA$11.5mil/km (2012), ballast and track renewal.
Denver's Union is a great rehab project. I measured that the tracks going through downtown in Calgary at the tower are about 42m across at the widest point. A station I really like the design of is Montpellier France where it's 37m across. Plus Montpellier has a great concourse above the tracks and small footprint for the station, 6 tracks, 4 platforms.

I think they're could eventually be a great underground station at the tower similar to the GO concourse in Toronto.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #729  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2017, 2:33 PM
Jaspertf Jaspertf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 130
https://www.albertaregionalrail.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by mytwocents View Post
Denver's Union is a great rehab project. I measured that the tracks going through downtown in Calgary at the tower are about 42m across at the widest point. A station I really like the design of is Montpellier France where it's 37m across. Plus Montpellier has a great concourse above the tracks and small footprint for the station, 6 tracks, 4 platforms.

I think they're could eventually be a great underground station at the tower similar to the GO concourse in Toronto.
I took a long walk around Denver's Union Station a year ago before it opened for services, the underground bus station and the way it connects to the Commuter/Amtrac and the Light Rail stations is interesting. Denver's Union Station is the type that I would put at Sunalta, Sunalta has the LRT and the bus station.

Montpellier station is much the same as most of the other modern TGV stations, there are only 2 ways to access platforms, over or under. Underground accesses require a lot of artificial light, Denver's Union Station bus terminal tries to make as much use as it can from skylights, if a building is placed on top you loose all natural light and then you have Structural considerations as well. Overhead access to platforms is often more desirable, due to design loadings you can have a more open-plan structure, and you have more available natural light. 3 of the Brightline stations share that same design philosophy, the terminus in Miami is more like Montparnasse or Victoria, with multiple high-rise structures on top, but the platforms are elevated so they get natural light in from the sides. The Brightline design and set-up is very interesting, take a look.

Downtown Calgary is congested, and the underpinning work involved to create an underground concourse would make it prohibitively expensive, as mentioned previously in this thread, when in many decades from now High Speed Rail does get built between Calgary and Edmonton, I would envisage a station similar to Miami's, elevated above the freight and commuter lines.


https://www.albertaregionalrail.com/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #730  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2017, 3:59 PM
RyLucky's Avatar
RyLucky RyLucky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,498
It's absurd to me that the entirety of the Alberta/BC portion of the CPR was built in within a decade 130 years ago (albeit with questionable ethics in everything from labour to land acquisition to bribery) and now it's almost politically and economically impossible to add a second rail ROW right beside it.

My philosophy towards rail is the same as for cycling or driving: We can all argue about how to allocate resources and which modes are the most effective and/or favoured by the market ONLY if there is some minimum level of access for each mode. We owe ourselves some basic passenger rail, even if it's only 10% of the budget we spend on highways, private vehicles, and insurance.

There really ought to be some train that goes:

Calgary
NW Calgary
Cochrane
Canmore
Banff
Lake Louise
Golden
Revelstoke
Sicamous
Kamloops
Merritt
Hope
Abbottsford
Surrey
Burnaby
Vancouver

If they could make it a reliable 12 hour trip that departs and arrives at 6/7/8 AM and 6/7/8 PM, folks could use if for commutes at the last few stops from either end, and skiers/adventurers could use it the other way. You could also take the overnight after work. You'd only need ~6 trains that never stop moving.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #731  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2017, 11:28 PM
mytwocents mytwocents is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Calgary
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaspertf View Post
Montpellier station is much the same as most of the other modern TGV stations, there are only 2 ways to access platforms, over or under. Underground accesses require a lot of artificial light, Denver's Union Station bus terminal tries to make as much use as it can from skylights, if a building is placed on top you loose all natural light and then you have Structural considerations as well. Overhead access to platforms is often more desirable, due to design loadings you can have a more open-plan structure, and you have more available natural light. 3 of the Brightline stations share that same design philosophy, the terminus in Miami is more like Montparnasse or Victoria, with multiple high-rise structures on top, but the platforms are elevated so they get natural light in from the sides. The Brightline design and set-up is very interesting, take a look.
So what changed your mind on a larger downtown station, it's back to the original on your website. There's nothing around Sunulta.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #732  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2017, 1:47 AM
Jaspertf Jaspertf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 130
https://www.albertaregionalrail.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by mytwocents View Post
So what changed your mind on a larger downtown station, it's back to the original on your website. There's nothing around Sunulta.
Logic and sequencing, but I am not a transportation planner, just what I think from observations. Also I remembered a conversation I had with a CP manager, they will never give up their lines through downtown, therefore you will only be able to get 2 passenger lines, so not enough room to turn around a train.

The primary line will always be Calgary-Edmonton, the secondary line Calgary-Banff, the extra is to Okotoks but you can amalgamate that to the Banff line. Due to the lack of space downtown all trains then have to pass through and terminate/turn around elsewhere, Sunalta provides that space, the bonus is that the station will have a direct connection to the Blue Line and the Bus Station. Sunalta is not a destination, it is just a place to store and clean trains. When the Eurostars were being updated one of the specifications was a minimum time to evacuate a train in a tunnel, a minute is plenty of time to stop at a platform.

I restricted the idea just to the initial service setup, no point getting ahead of ourselves and dreaming of what could be without getting rail set up in the first place. Biggest objection to rail proposals is cost of setup, initial infrastructure cost, therefore I have set up the idea as the most efficient and economical that I can think would be successful. I am trying to monitor FasTracks for ridership numbers, interesting to see how that will work out.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #733  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2017, 5:45 PM
mytwocents mytwocents is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Calgary
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaspertf View Post
I restricted the idea just to the initial service setup, no point getting ahead of ourselves and dreaming of what could be without getting rail set up in the first place. Biggest objection to rail proposals is cost of setup, initial infrastructure cost, therefore I have set up the idea as the most efficient and economical that I can think would be successful. I am trying to monitor FasTracks for ridership numbers, interesting to see how that will work out.
So if the goal is to get a systrm running why not use diesel instead of overhead electric. FasTracks at 30 million a mile would cost well over two billion to reach Banff assuming thats building track and power lines. Sunulta could be a prime spot for a yard but the end goal should be to move people to jobs should it not? Have a yard at Sunulta and skip the station altogether.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #734  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 1:43 AM
mytwocents mytwocents is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Calgary
Posts: 113
Here are some pictures I have from some old downtown station proposals the city had.


3rd st SE


Cross section of 3rd st


Cross section of proposal where the current tower is


Bonus shot of tower proposal
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #735  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 3:49 PM
technomad technomad is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alberia
Posts: 858
cool pics, thanks for posting!

I didn't realize the railtown concept was that old, nor that the tower had been proposed for the oxford/iol lot?

this one is my favorite though, love how they went full steampunk and designed a multi-modal station that included hot air balloons and other airships

Quote:
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #736  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 4:34 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytwocents View Post
Here are some pictures I have from some old downtown station proposals the city had.


3rd st SE
This one includes a difference City Hall and Theatre too!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #737  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 5:41 PM
mytwocents mytwocents is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Calgary
Posts: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by technomad View Post
cool pics, thanks for posting!

I didn't realize the railtown concept was that old, nor that the tower had been proposed for the oxford/iol lot?

this one is my favorite though, love how they went full steampunk and designed a multi-modal station that included hot air balloons and other airships
Ill see if there's some more in that book but I figured I'd keep it to station design. The LRT was in the bottom tunnels and VIA tracks above that. I still think the location could work for a central station but tower would be better.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #738  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2017, 3:04 AM
Jaspertf Jaspertf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Calgary
Posts: 130
https://www.albertaregionalrail.com/

Quote:
Originally Posted by mytwocents View Post
So if the goal is to get a systrm running why not use diesel instead of overhead electric. FasTracks at 30 million a mile would cost well over two billion to reach Banff assuming thats building track and power lines. Sunulta could be a prime spot for a yard but the end goal should be to move people to jobs should it not? Have a yard at Sunulta and skip the station altogether.
https://www.albertaregionalrail.com/train
The AGC is dual power, it has a diesel engine in each driving car and a pantograph in the centre car, it is able to seemlessly interchange between the modes even whilst at speed. The alternative would be the ALP45DP with BiLevel coaches, these are currently in use in Montreal and New Jersey, this is a locomotive with 2No 2,100hp diesel engines and a pantograph that can provide 5,900hp.

FasTracks at US$30million per kilometer includes track, grading, bridges, crossings, power supply and signalling. I would not suggest installing overhead power on all lines, only separated lines through Calgary for efficiency, speed and quietness.

In a Phased Construction environment, I would not propose building Sunalta station until the west leg to Cochrane and beyond, before that time the area would be used to store the commuter trains from Airdrie and Okotoks. The station is useful for an integrated transport network, direct connection to the Blue Line of the C-Train and the bus station for Greyhound and other services.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #739  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 5:04 PM
artvandelay's Avatar
artvandelay artvandelay is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The City of Cows
Posts: 1,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaspertf View Post
Downtown Calgary is congested, and the underpinning work involved to create an underground concourse would make it prohibitively expensive, as mentioned previously in this thread, when in many decades from now High Speed Rail does get built between Calgary and Edmonton, I would envisage a station similar to Miami's, elevated above the freight and commuter lines.
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but there already is an underground corridor providing access to the platforms:

Calgary Tower Hidden Spaces Tour 1 Old Train Station by Ben, on Flickr

Calgary Tower Hidden Spaces Tour 2 Old Train Station by Ben, on Flickr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #740  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 9:38 PM
MMMBeer MMMBeer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 128
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet here: the On-It regional bus service will be running a seasonal summer service between Banff and Crowfoot LRT station. Tickets $10 per person, per direction.

Apologies if this has been mentioned but didn't see it discussed above. Looks life a decent deal. Sure as heck looks more viable than building a train service from scratch.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:03 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.