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  #13161  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 3:08 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
In the grand scheme of things, if we could really get demand under the line in which conventional oil extraction of the kind that sticks a straw into the earth and oil comes out is all that is needed to meet demand, I think we can all agree that is the best scenario for the planet. Even if all that oil happens to come from Saudi Arabia or Qatar.

Unfortunately, we are well beyond that point, and those conventional oil sources are running out. You pretend that straws are all that's going on in the middle east, but countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar are well into non-conventional high polluting oil sources of their own to meet their demand and increasing oil production targets. The reality is that all new major oil fields are using non conventional methods, existing fields like the Permian Basin are switching to non-conventional to maintain/increase production, and it's not even clear if Ghawar is still solely using conventional methods (probably not). Even if we assume Ghawar switched to conventional-only and all non-conventional sources were curtailed and Ghawar somehow could magically increase it's production per day from 5 million barrels a day to 100 million barrels a day to supply the world market - at an estimated 75 billion barrel reserve and 100 million barrel a day worldwide demand, it would be completely exhausted in less than 2 years.

This map showing gas flaring can hint at the kind of environmentally damaging operations that are going on, and they show huge clouds over Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Qatar (not to mention Texas, and North Dakota). This is likely the only source of information you will find on emissions related to oil and gas operations in Saudi Arabia and Qatar as well, unless someone can produce a peer reviewed study that has the same kind of access to data as the Alberta oil sands study had.

Like I said, ideally, all oil and gas operations could be transparent, and as such, stack ranked regarding their environmental impact, including all pollution (not just co2, but methane, particulates, and sulphates, etc.). Alberta should not be chastised for providing one of the most transparent oil and gas operations in the world, just because they operate in a country and a political environment that allows others to publish a myriad number of figures and studies on environment impact, pollution, and related information. By contrast, Saudi Arabia operates one of the most secretive operations, and about the only information you'll have is satellite imagery showing flaring, if you're lucky.
I'm always impressed by the level of knowledge people like yourself and shreddog are displaying of the global oil industry even though you have no links to it at all; is such knowledge of oil normal for any educated Albertan in any field...? The same way, say, any cultured Newfoundlander a certain age would likely be an expert on cod by mainland layman's standards.
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  #13162  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 3:12 AM
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I know I shared this cartoon back then already but I think it's appropriate

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  #13163  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 3:25 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I'm always impressed by the level of knowledge people like yourself and shreddog are displaying of the global oil industry even though you have no links to it at all; is such knowledge of oil normal for any educated Albertan in any field...? The same way, say, any cultured Newfoundlander a certain age would likely be an expert on cod by mainland layman's standards.
It is probably true that the average Albertan knows more about the oil industry than the average Canadian considering it's relative importance in our province.

That said, I probably know about as much as you on the topic. The difference between you and I is simply I do a minimum amount of research and validation before I shoot my mouth off, while you are happy to indiscriminately talk out of your behind.

Being in technology, I know ways to quickly validate things, and it is simple for me to, for example, validate that there is no analogous study on secondary organic aerosols for virtually any other large scale oil and gas industrial concern. Similarly, it is pretty easy to quickly look up figures for conventional oil and gas, unconventional oil and gas, and so on.

You probably also know more than the average Canadian on the topic, simply by conversing here. And as such, your ignorance on the topic which is quickly debunked through minimum research, speaks volumes to the futility of a place like Alberta building any kind of social license within Canada.

Drown the domestic industry in regulations and import what we need elsewhere, a mantra that is all too natural to assume and comfortable like a warm blanket for Canadians. C'est la vie.
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  #13164  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 3:42 AM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
It is probably true that the average Albertan knows more about the oil industry than the average Canadian considering it's relative importance in our province.

That said, I probably know about as much as you on the topic. The difference between you and I is simply I do a minimum amount of research and validation before I shoot my mouth off, while you are happy to indiscriminately talk out of your behind.

Being in technology, I know ways to quickly validate things, and it is simple for me to, for example, validate that there is no analogous study on secondary organic aerosols for virtually any other large scale oil and gas industrial concern. Similarly, it is pretty easy to quickly look up figures for conventional oil and gas, unconventional oil and gas, and so on.
Yeah, sure, but the lack of analogous studies doesn't by itself guarantee that the operations getting studied are the cleaner ones, especially when their numbers aren't that good. That's pretty much been my argument since years (it's not the first time we discuss this).

A dirty transparent operation doesn't automatically beat any black box, even though it gets points for effort, while obviously the people running the black boxes should lose points for preferring to avoid scrutiny from outsiders.


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You probably also know more than the average Canadian on the topic, simply by conversing here. And as such, your ignorance on the topic which is quickly debunked through minimum research, speaks volumes to the futility of a place like Alberta building any kind of social license within Canada.
I would tend to agree that it (getting most Easterners and BCians to become fans of tar sands oil) is probably not a fight that can realistically be won.

I suppose most people think oil is on its way out anyway, might as well continue to temporarily import what we're currently using rather than building new infrastructure from scratch that will take years and decades before it comes online...

Any others want to chime in with their own justifications for their "not pro oil" mindset here? Just curious. I've never really surveyed people, the guess above is just my impressions.
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  #13165  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 4:22 AM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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I will add that while I may seem to be defending the Alberta oil industry here, I am no fan of it. I know countless people and businesses driven away by the oil industry here making things patently uncompetitive for other types of businesses. I'm sure if any of you run into ex-Albertans in other provinces, they will have a not very nice story of the oil industry, and their leaving is most likely caused either by being driven out, or something related to the instability of the industry itself. I have been driving hybrid cars since they came out, and the car I currently drive everyday uses zero gas (although it charges on a grid which uses fossil fuels). Once more charging infrastructure is in place around Canada I will move as soon as I can to a totally gas free fleet, well before any Federal mandates are likely even drafted.

I rather enjoy Alberta much more when we are quote unquote busting. Things become eerily stable. Turn over goes down, when we are booming people are jumping into new jobs every few months. It's possible to get a place to eat at mediocre restaurants on a whim, although the popular good places you need to plan ahead. When we are booming, you can walk down 17th avenue and strike out for blocks at a time. Calgary just becomes a more enjoyable place to live, work, and run a business outside oil and gas. Calgary is no where close to recovering from the downturn, but I already am seeing higher turnover and places getting busier and other warning signs that things are going downhill, in a manner of speaking. Many more headaches in my future.

That said, while I am not fan of the Alberta oil industry, I am a fan of the planet. And while I can appreciate the argument that Alberta's well documented pollution record does not automatically beat a black box, those black boxes are not exactly black and currently have horrible track records for not just CO2, but particulate pollution, methane, and a host of other pollutants. These facts are known even without having the same access to actual industrial operations as we have to the oil sands in this country. So the assumption that by default it will be better to continue on the status quo of imports and just wave our hands and assume that is the best thing for the planet seems not only disingenuous, it seems maliciously negligent from an environmental standpoint.

It also seems borderline trolling to type with a straight face that transporting far away oil using super tankers, moving it around using trains, and accepting it from black box oil and gas operations from countries with some of the worst pollution regulations (and records) in the world would be automatically better for the planet than simply using a pipeline (gasp, even if we have to build a new one) and consuming such product entirely domestically.

I am in big favor of carbon taxes, gas taxes, pricing externalities, and levelling the playing field. I think we should be pushing places like Saudi Arabia to be able to compare like for like regarding their oil and gas operations - nothing else makes sense for the planet. Although the NEP was poorly implemented, I support a lot of the ideas in it regarding putting tight controls on our industry, and limiting it's potential growth (and cushioning potential crashes). Let's get serious about phasing out oil and gas and curbing emissions - a big part of that is getting serious about taxing and pricing these things appropriately - especially from other countries who should be forced to play ball.
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  #13166  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 8:00 AM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
It is probably true that the average Albertan knows more about the oil industry than the average Canadian considering it's relative importance in our province.

That said, I probably know about as much as you on the topic. The difference between you and I is simply I do a minimum amount of research and validation before I shoot my mouth off, while you are happy to indiscriminately talk out of your behind.

Being in technology, I know ways to quickly validate things, and it is simple for me to, for example, validate that there is no analogous study on secondary organic aerosols for virtually any other large scale oil and gas industrial concern. Similarly, it is pretty easy to quickly look up figures for conventional oil and gas, unconventional oil and gas, and so on.

You probably also know more than the average Canadian on the topic, simply by conversing here. And as such, your ignorance on the topic which is quickly debunked through minimum research, speaks volumes to the futility of a place like Alberta building any kind of social license within Canada.

Drown the domestic industry in regulations and import what we need elsewhere, a mantra that is all too natural to assume and comfortable like a warm blanket for Canadians. C'est la vie.
Well played Geotag.

I work overseas and meet many Canadians through my work and travels. Most Canadians from central and eastern Canada have incredibly simplistic and ill informed ideas about Alberta. Its quite unbelievable actually. Its like they read from the same playbook that states that Harper and "big oil" are evil, tarsands = bad, Alberta = conservative redneck backwater that got uppity because we were lucky and stuck a pipe in the ground and out came the black gold, central Canada = the real Canada and Canadian values.

So simplistic.
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  #13167  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by odog View Post
Well played Geotag.

I work overseas and meet many Canadians through my work and travels. Most Canadians from central and eastern Canada have incredibly simplistic and ill informed ideas about Alberta. Its quite unbelievable actually. Its like they read from the same playbook that states that Harper and "big oil" are evil, tarsands = bad, Alberta = conservative redneck backwater that got uppity because we were lucky and stuck a pipe in the ground and out came the black gold, central Canada = the real Canada and Canadian values.

So simplistic.
Spite is the glue that holds Canada together.
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  #13168  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 1:00 PM
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Well played Geotag.

I work overseas and meet many Canadians through my work and travels. Most Canadians from central and eastern Canada have incredibly simplistic and ill informed ideas about Alberta. Its quite unbelievable actually. Its like they read from the same playbook that states that Harper and "big oil" are evil, tarsands = bad, Alberta = conservative redneck backwater that got uppity because we were lucky and stuck a pipe in the ground and out came the black gold, central Canada = the real Canada and Canadian values.

So simplistic.
I hate to break it to you but the "lucky and stuck a pipe in the ground and it came out black gold" is essentially true. How is it not? Sure it took a little extra effort to make it feasible but do you really think big oil anywhere wouldn't have figured our how to make it happen? There is nothing inherently special about Alberta that lead to the oil sands being viable. It may have hit roadblocks in terms of environmental damage in some jurisdictions but that's about it.

That said every province has "luck" in its history that lead to a period of success. The Maritimes happened to have a seemingly endless amount of fish at one point, Quebec and its hydro plants thanks to its geography, Ontario and its fertile farming lands, etc. We all make do with what we are dealt.
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  #13169  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 5:38 PM
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What's the alternative? Let the royal family fail and let the country descend into ISIS v2, sitting on vast oil wealth with nearly unlimited resources?

Saudi royal family are not saints, but there are no good answers to what we should or should not do. In many ways they are keeping a lid on extremists elements in that region as a valuable ally.
A tricky situation for sure, but we've been doing the wrong things for decades in regards to Saudi Arabia and I don't think continuing to do the wrong thing is ever the right course of action in the long run. At the very least, we (all of the West) should stop selling them weapons.
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  #13170  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2017, 6:53 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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A tricky situation for sure, but we've been doing the wrong things for decades in regards to Saudi Arabia and I don't think continuing to do the wrong thing is ever the right course of action in the long run. At the very least, we (all of the West) should stop selling them weapons.
I would rather characterise world wide geopolitical strategy since the end of World War 2 as being driven by a pragmatic choice of action which attempts to capture and realise the lesser of two evils.

In that sense, there are no "right" decisions, only decisions whose outcomes are "least bad".

Cutting off ties to Saudi Arabia, economic sanctions, refusing to sell them equipment. All of these things have potential consequences. In this case, if they didn't secure a contract with a London, ON company, do you think anything would change? Contracts are given to Lockheed for 10 times that amount.

It seems to betray an overly simplistic read of the situation. Cutting off these contracts as a country won't change anything on the ground, won't materially impact the situation as long as stronger more powerful countries like the USA remain allies. Warm fuzzies is not a pragmatic geopolitical strategy.
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  #13171  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 12:49 AM
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I hate to break it to you but the "lucky and stuck a pipe in the ground and it came out black gold" is essentially true. How is it not? Sure it took a little extra effort to make it feasible but do you really think big oil anywhere wouldn't have figured our how to make it happen? There is nothing inherently special about Alberta that lead to the oil sands being viable. It may have hit roadblocks in terms of environmental damage in some jurisdictions but that's about it.

That said every province has "luck" in its history that lead to a period of success. The Maritimes happened to have a seemingly endless amount of fish at one point, Quebec and its hydro plants thanks to its geography, Ontario and its fertile farming lands, etc. We all make do with what we are dealt.
"I hate to break it to you but the "lucky and stuck a pipe in the ground and it came out black gold" is essentially true."

This is such an asinine statement. Mineral extraction is incredibly complex and the oilsands in particular require massive amounts of capital, technology and engineering. The University of Alberta has a world leading engineering school that has created new oil extraction technologies that are imported throughout the world. For a underpopulated, rural, fringe province like Alberta in the early 20th century, to get capital and technology to develop its oil and natural gas resources was incredibly difficult and required hard work, dedication and foresight. Now, Alberta is the fourth most populated province in the country, with the third highest GDP and two of the top five most populated cities in the country. Calgary is the second HQ corporate town in the country.

If course, this was accomplished so easily, but essentially sticking a pipe in the ground.

I'm sure it was as easy as it was for Ontario to pop up their car factories using american money and pumping out the sh*tty Chryslers everyone loves.
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  #13172  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 1:05 AM
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"I hate to break it to you but the "lucky and stuck a pipe in the ground and it came out black gold" is essentially true."

This is such an asinine statement. Mineral extraction is incredibly complex and the oilsands in particular require massive amounts of capital, technology and engineering. The University of Alberta has a world leading engineering school that has created new oil extraction technologies that are imported throughout the world. For a underpopulated, rural, fringe province like Alberta in the early 20th century, to get capital and technology to develop its oil and natural gas resources was incredibly difficult and required hard work, dedication and foresight. Now, Alberta is the fourth most populated province in the country, with the third highest GDP and two of the top five most populated cities in the country. Calgary is the second HQ corporate town in the country.

If course, this was accomplished so easily, but essentially sticking a pipe in the ground.

I'm sure it was as easy as it was for Ontario to pop up their car factories using american money and pumping out the sh*tty Chryslers everyone loves.
I think Seneca had the oil and gas industry in mind when he wrote:

“Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.”
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  #13173  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 1:13 AM
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Originally Posted by odog View Post
"I hate to break it to you but the "lucky and stuck a pipe in the ground and it came out black gold" is essentially true."

This is such an asinine statement. Mineral extraction is incredibly complex and the oilsands in particular require massive amounts of capital, technology and engineering. The University of Alberta has a world leading engineering school that has created new oil extraction technologies that are imported throughout the world. For a underpopulated, rural, fringe province like Alberta in the early 20th century, to get capital and technology to develop its oil and natural gas resources was incredibly difficult and required hard work, dedication and foresight. Now, Alberta is the fourth most populated province in the country, with the third highest GDP and two of the top five most populated cities in the country. Calgary is the second HQ corporate town in the country.

If course, this was accomplished so easily, but essentially sticking a pipe in the ground.

I'm sure it was as easy as it was for Ontario to pop up their car factories using american money and pumping out the sh*tty Chryslers everyone loves.
Very well stayed! Nothing is simple when it comes to complex situations like oil extraction in its many forms. The attitude of some people is astonishing.
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  #13174  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 1:36 AM
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Oh god good. You honestly think if the oil sands existed anywhere else in Canada the same technology wouldn't have been born out of sheer necessity? The can-do kool aid is some strong stuff.

The oil industry in Canada was born in Ontario btw...
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  #13175  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 3:13 AM
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Well played Geotag.

I work overseas and meet many Canadians through my work and travels. Most Canadians from central and eastern Canada have incredibly simplistic and ill informed ideas about Alberta. Its quite unbelievable actually. Its like they read from the same playbook that states that Harper and "big oil" are evil, tarsands = bad, Alberta = conservative redneck backwater that got uppity because we were lucky and stuck a pipe in the ground and out came the black gold, central Canada = the real Canada and Canadian values.

So simplistic.
This is the prevailing opinion on the west coast too, although we also are annoyed at central Canada for thinking they're more important. (don't really care about "real Canada" though)
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  #13176  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 4:43 AM
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I'm sure it was as easy as it was for Ontario to pop up their car factories using american money and pumping out the sh*tty Chryslers everyone loves.
You just outed yourself there. Protip: you shouldn't always be dissing the same automaker.

Anyway, as I pointed out to you a year and a half ago, what would Albertan Coal Rollers do without Chrysler? They make the best pickups!


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Fine, then you should practice what you preach, and stop selling your shi*tty chryslers
You guys say that but in truth you'd be sorry without them, they're the favorite brand of the Alberta Coal Rollers (and the most friendly to the mod).

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  #13177  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 4:46 AM
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(page 235 of this very thread, for reference.)
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  #13178  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 4:47 AM
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Oh god good. You honestly think if the oil sands existed anywhere else in Canada the same technology wouldn't have been born out of sheer necessity? The can-do kool aid is some strong stuff.
Well, at least some other parts of the country appear to oppose pipelines as a matter of principle, so presumably in those parts the oil sands would have been left untouched and the technology undeveloped.
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  #13179  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 6:19 AM
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So I've been following this Teamsters strike at YYZ. How is it in a metropolitan area of almost 6 million, Swissport "needs" to bring in Temporary Foreign Workers? Maybe wages are stagnant and Canadian productivity lags because the government allows the continued abuse of the TFW program! Thoughts?
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  #13180  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2017, 7:16 AM
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(page 235 of this very thread, for reference.)
too funny - holy sh*t Lio get a life dude.
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