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  #121  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
I would note that both Toronto and NYC are amalgamated cities which evens out resources to various neighbourhoods and allow for better regional planning.

I would offer that both have stronger than typical municipal governments, and that broadly as could be said of SF those governments skew to the political left within their respective state/provincial contexts.
New York City - a city that collects its own income tax and has its own university system, and a city that has special laws written for it in Albany - has a strong municipal government.

Toronto has a very weak municipal government, both in terms of influence/power and my own opinion of its effectiveness. Actually, I would go so far as to say that its sclerotic and useless municipal government is Toronto's biggest weakness. City council is presided by a collection of narrow-minded suburban councillors, drawn to politics from being aggrieved small business owners. If they bother to show up to council meetings, they bicker at each other and vote on motions like whether to make distracted walking illegal, or whether bicyclists need to be licensed. This is the vacuum which allowed somebody like Rob Ford to become mayor. Toronto city council is basically a third world democracy. If Toronto is successful, it is successful despite its municipal government.
     
     
  #122  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
New York City - a city that collects its own income tax and has its own university system, and a city that has special laws written for it in Albany - has a strong municipal government.

Toronto has a very weak municipal government, both in terms of influence/power and my own opinion of its effectiveness. Actually, I would go so far as to say that its sclerotic and useless municipal government is Toronto's biggest weakness. City council is presided by a collection of narrow-minded suburban councillors, drawn to politics from being aggrieved small business owners. If they bother to show up to council meetings, they bicker at each other and vote on motions like whether to make distracted walking illegal, or whether bicyclists need to be licensed. This is the vacuum which allowed somebody like Rob Ford to become mayor. Toronto city council is basically a third world democracy. If Toronto is successful, it is successful despite its municipal government.
I think you conflate politics w/government when they are only somewhat related.

Government is the day to day operation and institution.

The City of Toronto government does have its own law passed for it by Queen's Park (the province of Ontario) in the form of the City of Toronto Act.

It does have unique taxation powers, including its own Land Transfer Tax.

Further, when comparing it with other municipal governments one wishes to compare its effective ability to deliver mandated services.

Whether one compares Toronto's public transit, which for all local lamentations is surely the best system in terms of frequent service in all of North America, or its phenomenal public library system.

Toronto's government has the means to be effective, which is often demonstrated.

One might also note Toronto's ability act quickly when it wishes to (recently moving to acquire a film studio location that was deemed important to the City's economic development and threatened w/demolition on mere weeks notice.

Again, the City is far from perfect.

It does feature a weak-mayor system, which I happen to like.

But that does not describe the relative power, size or scope of the government as an institution.

Which given a more than 10B budget governing an area of over 600km2 and more than 2.8M people is doubtless large; and in which overall effectiveness I think stacks up very favourably on North American terms.

My comparision w/NY was on larger scale planning and service-sharing over a larger area. A good relative comparison being Detroit w/more than 2 dozen local governments and 3 counties being much more hobbled by Byzantine organization.
     
     
  #123  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
I would note that both Toronto and NYC are amalgamated cities which evens out resources to various neighbourhoods and allow for better regional planning.
NYC isn't an "amalgamated city". It hasn't added an inch of land since the 19th century. And NYC is fairly centralized relative to Toronto.

Anyways, the rest of your post seems to deal with Canada v. US, which doesn't appear to be relevant. I thought we were talking immigration hubs, and macro vs. local issues, not really nation-specific differences.

The point is that immigrant hubs like, say, Miami, Toronto or Sydney are the beneficiaries of certain macro trends, and it's a bit myopic to think that local decisionmaking around the arts, or transit, or education, plays any significant role.
     
     
  #124  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post

My comparision w/NY was on larger scale planning and service-sharing over a larger area. A good relative comparison being Detroit w/more than 2 dozen local governments and 3 counties being much more hobbled by Byzantine organization.
Metro NYC has far more byzantine/localized govt. than Metro Detroit. Communities tend to be far smaller in the NYC area, and there are far more overlapping layers of govt.

Nassau County, NY, alone has 126 separate communities, layered under 64 villages and three towns. These are three overlapping jurisdictions (i.e. every piece of land in the county will have a corresponding community, village and town). Then there are the (completely separate) school districts and county govt.

In contrast, Oakland County, MI, around the same size as Nassau County, NY, has only one layer of local municpality, with 61 cities or townships.
     
     
  #125  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
NYC isn't an "amalgamated city".
Yes, It is. Its merely that the amalgamation occurred on Jan 1st 1898, a century ahead of Toronto's.

Quote:

Anyways, the rest of your post seems to deal with Canada v. US, which doesn't appear to be relevant. I thought we were talking immigration hubs, and macro vs. local issues, not really nation-specific differences.

The point is that immigrant hubs like, say, Miami, Toronto or Sydney are the beneficiaries of certain macro trends, and it's a bit myopic to think that local decisionmaking around the arts, or transit, or education, plays any significant role.
I did address national factors specifically because of DC Denizen implying that there were no quality of life factors (in Toronto) that were materially different.

And because local factors had already been discussed in great detail.

However, if you wish, we can re-hash old ground and point out that indeed there are non-macro factors that affect immigration.

If one were to compare NYC as you did, w/Cleveland, beyond the differential in geography....why such a difference in attracting population, not just immigrants, but internal relocations w/in the U.S.?

Answers can be found in local economic policy choices and local quality of life issues, which are by no means the whole answer.

Of course macro issues have effects.

But let's note that Cleveland and Buffalo and Detroit were boom cities, before they went bust.

That they still had great advantages in terms of logistics, cheap power, voluminous fresh water at all times.

While some of those advantages mattered less in a period of relative de-industrialization/automation that hardly accounts for the extent of decline.

Choices were made either by local areas themselves, or for them by their respective states, that fostered racial tension and segregation, that left central cities w/insufficient resources and mounting debts and crime, and of course this impact immigration levels to those cities.

When do you ever seen a lineup of folks for moving to areas w/high unemployment, shrinking populations, racial tensions and rising crime?

****

Toronto has as its motto 'Diversity Our Strength'.

It has, because of both provincial and local polices never had the degree of segregation either by skin colour or by economic cohort than many struggling US centres have.

Of course that impacts our attractiveness to would-be immigrants.

Along w/strong support programs (libraries provide free ESL classes)

Those places lacking that level of support, both practical and symbolic will invariably draw fewer immigrants.

**

It is also a matter of the choices made which restrain crime, and which raise the level of 'social security' (not the program).

Yes, many of those are State/Provincial or National in Nature (unemployment benefits, Canada's medicare systems etc.)

But many are intrinsically local.

Quality public transportation, low levels of corruption, good parks systems, and local social supports (free recreation for children, discounted for seniors etc.).

The idea that immigrants are agnostic to all that is rubbish.
     
     
  #126  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 7:39 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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Um, this is exactly my point. It has nothing to do with anything Toronto is actively doing. You think SF has a better economy than Detroit because the mayor is smarter? LOL. Rob Ford? The mayors of NYC and SF are complete ciphers.
What the hell are you talking about mayors for? Mayors just steer the ship for a few years. Toronto (and Canada) are responsible for Toronto's success NOT IT's MAYORS. It's the citizens of Toronto and the people who've moved there over the last century and a half (Torontonians, Canadians, foreigners) who've made Toronto what it is today.

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If you think Miami gets more immigrants than Cleveland because of local public policy decisions, you're living in fantasyland.
I've never said that anywhere.

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And here is the inevitably absurd SSP boosterism. This is pretty much all nonsense, as if an immigrant is headed to Toronto over Montreal or Ottawa over crime, racial tension, quality education, healthcare, liberalism, cultural industries or "marvelous entertainment options", LOL. Ridiculous.
I've never said that either. These are advantages Canada holds over the USA. Everyone got that except you apparently. You're either a conniving prick who spins people's words to mean something entirely different or you're irretrievably thick. You pick.

And Toronto does have marvellous entertainment options. If you took your head out of your ass you might notice these things.
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Last edited by isaidso; Dec 27, 2017 at 8:29 PM.
     
     
  #127  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 7:51 PM
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Geeeesh, can we not have a 'The Changing Face of Toronto' thread without the usual trolls/trouble makers (Crawford and dcdenizen) shitting all over it? And that's exactly what those posters are, trolls/trouble makers. They have no interest in learning anything new. Their intent is to knock the city down a peg by regurgitating stubbornly held views that often have very little basis in reality. Insecure? Butt hurt? Can't stand someone else/some place else doing well? Who knows what their motivation is.

Toronto is, by no means, perfect but it gets a lot of things right and does many things very very well. That's not boosterism, that's just the reality. Millions of people around the word recognize it and they're marching with their feet. It's not some grand delusion on their part. Toronto's success isn't something that's landed on its shores by luck or circumstance.

Some people will just refuse to accept any of this on any level. It's no wonder they're puzzled, irrate, and/or revert to mudslinging. It's very interesting that the same posters have never met a Toronto thread they didn't like. They've said their 2 cents many times but keep coming back to shit on the same city over and over and over again. That's the very definition of a troll.

Don't like the troll label? Then stop visiting these threads Crawford/dcdenizen.
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World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams
     
     
  #128  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 7:58 PM
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It happens all over the world. "Paris of the East", "Venice of the North", etc.
Yes, and it does most of those places a disservice.
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World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams
     
     
  #129  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 8:02 PM
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World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
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Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams
     
     
  #130  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 8:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
Yes, It is. Its merely that the amalgamation occurred on Jan 1st 1898, a century ahead of Toronto's.
But then what's your point? Practically every city on earth is "amalgamated".

The only U.S. city I can think of that isn't "amalgamated" is SF. I don't believe SF city limits have grown since founding. But certainly Boston, Philly, Detroit, Chicago, LA, Seattle, Cleveland are all "amalgamated".

Toronto is very different from NYC in that Toronto annexed basically all the postwar inner suburbs. The majority of Toronto's population lives in postwar suburbia.

In contrast, NYC's inner suburbs are generally older than most of Toronto proper. The "Scarborough" type areas are usually nowhere close to NYC proper. If NYC had analogous city limits it would have annexed practically everything within 45 miles of Times Square, across three states.
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Quality public transportation, low levels of corruption, good parks systems, and local social supports (free recreation for children, discounted for seniors etc.).

The idea that immigrants are agnostic to all that is rubbish.
Give us examples, then. You're the one making the outlandish claim.

We know that, comparing Canada's largest metros, Toronto and Vancouver draw more immigrants than Montreal and Ottawa. So explain to us how immigrants end up in Toronto based on any of these criteria.

How do, say Pakistanis end up in Mississauga over Montreal based on parks quality or senior discounts or good govt., rather than the obvious draws common to immigrant gateways around the planet?
     
     
  #131  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2017, 8:34 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Geeeesh, can we not have a 'The Changing Face of Toronto' thread without the usual trolls/trouble makers (Crawford and dcdenizen) shitting all over it?
Reality sucks, I guess?

Maybe the "City Discussions" forum is the wrong place for a juvenile, fact-free city booster circle-jerk?
     
     
  #132  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2017, 1:41 AM
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This thread often feels like a sales pitch to me.
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  #133  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2017, 2:38 AM
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How do, say Pakistanis end up in Mississauga over Montreal based on parks quality or senior discounts or good govt., rather than the obvious draws common to immigrant gateways around the planet?
Well, in some cases like Toronto vs. Montreal, cultural/social/political differences do matter for preferences of some immigrant groups, not just economics alone.

For instance, Montreal's language policy would (though that's more Quebec vs. the rest of Canada, rather than a city vs. city thing) make it less attractive to traditionally English commonwealth groups like Pakistanis (or Indians or say, Jamaicans) and favor Francophone and French former colony culture-oriented groups like Haitians, West Africans, Lebanese etc.

More Romance language/culture groups such as Latin Americans, Italians seem to prefer Montreal's culture and lifestyle proportionally more than Toronto too. Many people do actually prefer Montreal's cultural vibes over Toronto's, even though Toronto is economically more of a draw.
     
     
  #134  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2017, 5:01 AM
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Canada's national policy is very immigrant friendly.

Toronto's diversity both in its ethnic makeup and its economy make it a magnet for immigrants.

Quebec's language policies have hampered Montreal particularly from the 1970s to the 1990s but with the PQ threat lessening, Montreal is becoming much more immigrant friendly.

You will not see the same degree of immigrants going to the second tier Canadian cities including Ottawa, simply because the diversity of the economy is not as broad, however, that does not mean that immigrants don't go to the second tier cities, but is scaled more to the size of the city.

Toronto benefited by being a manufacturing centre that made it a major city in the first place, and by benefiting from Montreal's misfortune 30 or 40 years ago. The city did things right by making sure the city worked well as it grew. Canada's ability to avoid the white flight issue of the 60s and 70s meant that Toronto was not subject to the rot that inflicted so many American cities. So while Buffalo, Cleveland and Detroit, stagnated or declined, Toronto soared. One further thing helped Toronto over its American counterparts, was the lack of attraction of sunbelt locations. In Canada, there are no warm cities to migrate to. I will add one further thing, the lack of 'Right to Work' legislation in Canadian provinces makes it less likely to create environments that distort labour markets nationwide, which contribute to migration.
     
     
  #135  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2017, 5:26 AM
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I haven't had the chance to visit Toronto but from I heard from friends who live there and online research, it's a great place to live and is rising up.


I still find Montreal more exotic though and I have family there. However, if I had the chance to move to Canada, I would probably choose Toronto. It seems to have great diversity, which is a bonus in my book.
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  #136  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2017, 5:57 AM
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SSP in a nutshell:


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  #137  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2017, 6:30 AM
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So I thought I would do an experiment here. . .

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New York City is one of the fastest developing cities in North America!
New video signs just went up in Times Square
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
This is one of New York City's nicer neighbourhoods
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Wall Street gets a new Hermes
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
New York City
Nope, still obnoxious.

Ok fine, let's try Edmonton.

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Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
Edmonton is one of the fastest developing cities in North America!
New video signs just went up in Churchill Square
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Originally Posted by Xelebes View Post
This is one of Edmonton's nicer neighbourhoods
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Jasper Avenue gets a new Hermes
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Edmonton
*sigh* It's still obnoxious.

The question I have to the OP is. . . what's the point of this thread other than to market this city? Is this nothing more than spam?
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