Stronger ties -- Mexican-US border cities or Canadian-US border cities?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I wonder where or how far from the Canadian border people start to think about the Canadian border less than the Mexican one.

I'd imagine that in on the west coast, for instance, people in Seattle might feel like Canada is nearby, but how about further south, say Portland? By the time you get to California, even towards NorCal, the Mexican influence is probably much larger.

On the east coast, Maine, Vermont, NH, and upstate New York probably think about Canada, but once you get around the Bos-Wash corridor on the eastern seaboard, the fact that nationally, Mexico, and Mexican-Americans are on the radar (and say, Canadians living in Boston or NYC or wherever aren't going to be that salient, and probably can "pass" for an average American often times anyways if they have a typical North American English accent) much more probably means that more people will pay attention to the southern than northern border.

It seems to me that a large part of the U.S. and its population probably doesn't have much of a "border consciousness" at all. Obviously it exists in places right along the border (though sometimes even Americans living in close border areas can be astonishingly oblivious to Canada), but in my experience and my corner of the continent, border consciousness on the U.S. is reasonably high in places like Watertown, NY, Plattsburgh, NY, Burlington, VT, etc.

It's not super-high but somewhat on the radar in places a bit further away like Rochester, Syracuse and Albany.

But by the time you get to places like Scranton, Harrisburg, Allentown in PA one doesn't get the impression that there is a generalized awareness of a "border" of any kind, or even that there's a place in their midst where everything functions in French and that's only a half day's drive away.

If people in these cities, and indeed in much of the U.S.'s territory that's geographically quite a bit closer to Canada than to Mexico, any marginal border consciousness is probably related to the southern border due to chatter about Trump's wall, TLC or Lifetime shows that follow the border patrol looking for illegals, or movies and TV shows like The Border and The Bridge.

In my travels I've actually found that American "metropolitans" living in the big NE cities like NYC, Boston and DC are actually more aware of the border and of Canada than the people living in the inland industrial cities. For all their cockiness and self-absorption, the "metropolitans" to their credit can also often have a more global perspective on things.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Being integrated is much different than saying there's no border security until you hit San Antonio, which is really far away from McAllen, TX -- 240 miles apart. Sure there's lots of people that commute daily from Mex to Tex and vice versa with family on both sides as somebody else already mentioned.

You still have to go through customs at each port of entry in McAllen.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir//U.S...2!2d26.0968854

I've hit a checkpoint about 40 miles north of eagle pass Texas.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It seems to me that a large part of the U.S. and its population probably doesn't have much of a "border consciousness" at all. Obviously it exists in places right along the border (though sometimes even Americans living in close border areas can be astonishingly oblivious to Canada), but in my experience and my corner of the continent, border consciousness on the U.S. is reasonably high in places like Watertown, NY, Plattsburgh, NY, Burlington, VT, etc.

It's not super-high but somewhat on the radar in places a bit further away like Rochester, Syracuse and Albany.

But by the time you get to places like Scranton, Harrisburg, Allentown in PA one doesn't get the impression that there is a generalized awareness of a "border" of any kind, or even that there's a place in their midst where everything functions in French and that's only a half day's drive away.

If people in these cities, and indeed in much of the U.S.'s territory that's geographically quite a bit closer to Canada than to Mexico, any marginal border consciousness is probably related to the southern border due to chatter about Trump's wall, TLC or Lifetime shows that follow the border patrol looking for illegals, or movies and TV shows like The Border and The Bridge.

In my travels I've actually found that American "metropolitans" living in the big NE cities like NYC, Boston and DC are actually more aware of the border and of Canada than the people living in the inland industrial cities. For all their cockiness and self-absorption, the "metropolitans" to their credit can also often have a more global perspective on things.

I felt that while traveling in parts of New England, awareness that the part of Canada that was French-speaking was right above them (even while in places pretty far from the border, like small town Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut) was pretty high, among country folks and city folks alike.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I felt that while traveling in parts of New England, awareness that the part of Canada that was French-speaking was right above them (even while in places pretty far from the border, like small town Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut) was pretty high, among country folks and city folks alike.

Indeed, but there is a specific reason for that: in many of these areas anywhere between 15-50% of the population might be descended from people who migrated to NE from Quebec.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It seems to me that a large part of the U.S. and its population probably doesn't have much of a "border consciousness" at all. Obviously it exists in places right along the border (though sometimes even Americans living in close border areas can be astonishingly oblivious to Canada), but in my experience and my corner of the continent, border consciousness on the U.S. is reasonably high in places like Watertown, NY, Plattsburgh, NY, Burlington, VT, etc.

It's not super-high but somewhat on the radar in places a bit further away like Rochester, Syracuse and Albany.

Very true based on my experience in living in both Plattsburgh and Utica. Canada still looms large over Utica because it's relatively close and we still watched Hockey Nigh in Canada but far enough that many people don't visit that often..Toronto was a good 8 hour drive from CNY and not many Canadians visit that part of NY apart from pee breaks on the Thruway. In Plattsburgh, we were an hour from Montreal and people on both sides went back and forth all the time.

[Capsicum]

From the Wikipedia article on French Canadian Americans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Canadian_Americans

"French-Canadian Americans, because of their proximity to Canada and Quebec, kept their language, culture, and religion alive much longer than any other ethnic group in the United States apart from Mexican Americans."

Both French-Canadian descent Americans and Mexican Americans share a commonality that their immigrant "old country" is physically right across a nearby border. Unlike say Italian or Japanese immigrants, who have to cross oceans, and also have others cross oceans to get their old country's culture reinforced by newcomers, Canadian and Mexican immigrants probably had (and have) the advantage of keeping in touch really easily with a geographically close source country.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There are obviously strong ties between Canada and the US in the border regions but on a family and friend level they seem a lot weaker than along the Mexican border to me. I am pretty sure this was not always the case but I would surmise today that a pretty clear majority of people in Windsor or Fort Erie or Coutts don't really have family or friends they are close to on the other side of the border. (Though decent sized minorities probably do.) The situation on the US-Mexico border is far different due to continued massive and recent population movements there.

When it comes to the border, Canada and the US are like twins separated at birth. Mexico and the US when it comes to border areas are more like siblings still living in the same house but on different floors.

there is also the third element of a shared separate culture along the entire usa-mex border, even through the rural areas, that doesn't exist along the usa-can border. its like a usa-mex buffer. selena was the queen bee of this world and movies like the border w/jack nicholson and let there be blood among other things reflect it. there was even a very popular cold war era novel in the 1980's called warday where after the worst la frontera became its own country.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Indeed, but there is a specific reason for that: in many of these areas anywhere between 15-50% of the population might be descended from people who migrated to NE from Quebec.

It was interesting for me to notice when in the NE US and New England the consciousness or awareness of either Quebec/Canada or people with roots from it, was on the radar, versus where the influence diminished.

It seems going down from Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont, the recognition of people with French Canadian roots or ancestry seems present down until where upstate NY and Connecticut are, and until they gradually merge into the NYC metro area and its suburban areas where French Canadian ancestry becomes much less notable and people are much more conscious about people with overseas immigrant roots from the Ellis Island period (Italy, Ireland) than French Canada.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

there is also the third element of a shared separate culture along the entire usa-mex border, even through the rural areas, that doesn't exist along the usa-can border. its like a usa-mex buffer. selena was the queen bee of this world and movies like the border w/jack nicholson and let there be blood among other things reflect it. there was even a very popular cold war era novel in the 1980's called warday where after the worst la frontera became its own country.

But didn't this kind of buffer zone exist more in the days when say, Jack Kerouac was around (and where French Canadian Americans still spoke French to a larger degree than today)?

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

But didn't this kind of buffer zone exist more in the days when say, Jack Kerouac was around (and where French Canadian Americans still spoke French to a larger degree than today)?

i would guess this buffer is much, much stronger today along the southern border and even less so along the northern border of the usa and canada than it was back in those days (although yeah something like la frontera exists in the north in select places, like below quebec, as has been discussed). for one thing, nafta and the resultant malaquidoras factories, troubles in mexico and central america have really jumped up the direct border population.

[Capsicum]

Recently (probably in the last couple years), I've heard articles claiming that immigration/emigration from Mexico to the US had reached the net zero balance point or even changed direction, but I haven't followed up on what's the latest data.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Interestingly, how much closer the two countries' populations were in the past.

Today Canada has a bit over 36 million, Mexico over 127 million.

Mexico is three and a half times more populous than Canada today.

In 1960, Canada had about 18 million. Mexico had about 36 million. Mexico was twice as populous.

In 1930, Canada had about 10 million, Mexico about 16.5 million. Mexico was about one and two thirds times as populous.

In 1910, Canada had about 7 million, Mexico had 15 million. Mexico was about a bit more than twice as populous.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Mexico
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_Canada

Man, Mexico grew like a beast.


And like you said, Mexico is more than just the border areas. I had the opportunity to a spend a few weeks in Cancun and Puebla two years ago and the latter was probably as big as some of the larger US cities with a nice historic core.


I know we are all mostly Americans and Canadians on here, but we tend to forget that Mexico and Latin America in general have urban centers just as old and sometimes larger than even our own largest cities.

[10023]

^ generally much older, actually.

[Capsicum]

Another thing I think sometimes many people don't realize is how Latin America itself grew from immigration. The region was an immigration destination that lots of people arrived to as immigrants (aside from the natives and the early settlers/colonists, and their slaves) from the Old World in generations past. That's why there are Lebanese-descent Mexicans like Salma Hayek, or German-descent Brazilians like Gisele Bündchen, and why nearly half of Argentines are claimed to have some Italian ancestry, and why Brazil has the largest population of Japanese descent outside Japan.

Nowadays we think of Latin America as a place that people emigrate away from and immigrate towards, from the point of view of Americans and Canadians.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Being integrated is much different than saying there's no border security until you hit San Antonio, which is really far away from McAllen, TX -- 240 miles apart. Sure there's lots of people that commute daily from Mex to Tex and vice versa with family on both sides as somebody else already mentioned.

You still have to go through customs at each port of entry in McAllen.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir//U.S...2!2d26.0968854

Originally Posted by JManc

There is definitely security on the southern border and he may be referring to the various border control checkpoints (there's one near San Antonio on I-10) that stop pretty much everyone and check their status.

Yeah, there are indeed border checkpoints well into the U.S. on many of the highways - this is true in South Texas, at least. My dad was raised in Brownsville and his family was still down there while I was growing up in the Austin area. We drove down all the time.

That said, this is not to say that there is not security on the border as you cross into Matamoros, Nuevo Progresso, Reynosa, etc. These northern checkpoints are just that - checkpoints. They're additional layers of security on top of the customs and immigration at the actual border.

[dc_denizen]

only windsor and detroit have strong ties. the other cities, no. buffalo is looked down upon by prissy ontarians. Vancouver is a mostly chinese city now with little in common with seattle.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

From the Wikipedia article on French Canadian Americans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Canadian_Americans

"French-Canadian Americans, because of their proximity to Canada and Quebec, kept their language, culture, and religion alive much longer than any other ethnic group in the United States apart from Mexican Americans."

Both French-Canadian descent Americans and Mexican Americans share a commonality that their immigrant "old country" is physically right across a nearby border. Unlike say Italian or Japanese immigrants, who have to cross oceans, and also have others cross oceans to get their old country's culture reinforced by newcomers, Canadian and Mexican immigrants probably had (and have) the advantage of keeping in touch really easily with a geographically close source country.

But in the case of the northern border this is largely a thing of the past. With very few exceptions (generally only a family level as opposed to a regional level, with the possible exception of the Madawaska, ME region) very little of our culture subsists in the Franco-American population these days.

It's true that you did have this to a significant degree in the not-too-distant past. I've mentioned on the SSP Canada forum that up until the 1950s places like Woonsocket, RI and Lowell, MA were on the touring circuit for many French Canadian entertainers from Quebec. As a kid in the 70s and 80s I occasionally remembered contestants phoning in to certain French Canadian programs from places like Manchester, NH or Lewiston, ME.

You don't really see this anymore, although on New Year's Eve a few days ago on the big end of year wrap up TV show that everyone watches here just before midnight (known as "Le Bye Bye"), at one point they showed viewers from all over giving New Year's wishes, and a group of them were in "Vermont, USA".

[ThePhun1]

How about that relationship between Ketchikan to Prince Rupert?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

How about that relationship between Ketchikan to Prince Rupert?

Joined at the hip.

[ThePhun1]