Australian vs American downtowns - vibrancy.

[softee]

Originally Posted by Razor

Look, can we all just call a spade a spade?..Most American city cores aside from a few outliers experienced heavy white flight, at least on regular weekends, in comparison to Aussie metros and even the few larger Canadian equivalent sized ones, let alone European metros.. Philly is no exception from what I at least experienced.I'm only talking about the city's heart as well, and not neighbourhoods..Glad to hear that that trend is reversing, and again we loved Philly..It's a great city!..I also want to put a little bit of a disclaimer on this in that I also recognize that we just weren't in the right parts of downtown when we were there as other people on here mentioned.For example Toronto's city hall always have people milling about on a given Saturday and Sunday afternoon, whereas Philly's beautiful city hall area was fairly quiet when we walked by that weekend, and that day was beautiful temperature wise.I suppose I was unfairly expecting more people in and around that city hall area, and cities roll differently on where the people congregate.The ship museum was also quiet, and we loved the aquarium on the Camden side, but the walk that through that neighbourhood from the aquarium to the bus station to get across again was a different story. We originally took the ferry across to get to the aquarium in the first place.

No worries, the simple explanation is that despite what some people are insisting, for various reasons (population, residential density, retail, tourism, transit usage etc.) Philly's core is simply not as busy in terms of pedestrian activity as Toronto's or Montreal's core. I don't know why stating such as thing is such a big deal.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by softee

No worries, the simple explanation is that despite what some people are insisting, for various reasons (population, residential density, retail, tourism, transit usage etc.) Philly's core is simply not as busy in terms of pedestrian activity as Toronto's or Montreal's core. I don't know why stating such as thing is such a big deal.

No, the simple explanation is that the forumer didn't go to Philly's busy areas.

Philly, in terms of core pedestrian vitality, is at least roughly as busy as any U.S. or Canadian city center excepting NYC.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by softee

No worries, the simple explanation is that despite what some people are insisting, for various reasons (population, residential density, retail, tourism, transit usage etc.) Philly's core is simply not as busy in terms of pedestrian activity as Toronto's or Montreal's core. I don't know why stating such as thing is such a big deal.

No me neither!..My intent wasn't to steer away this thread from the OP or slam Philly in any way. I was more or less stating that you can throw in some of the major Canadian city cores as well. And yes, when we wandered around what we thought where the core was, probably wasn't the right part of the core where the regular Yonge or Saint Catherines level of regular weekend activity and pedestrian concentration was, as other forumers like Crawford have stated..

[eixample]

As a Philadelphian, I agree that Philly's core is not as dynamic as it should or could be. I think white people turning their back on Center City (even ones that never left for the suburbs), the decline of shopping streets and multiple department stores and the lack of really good non-peak and weekend transit all paid a part. It's changing quickly though so check back in 2020 when two major retail/apartment projects on East Market Street are completed. Even when Philly was bustling with people and industry 100+ years ago it was seen as a kind of dull place. Blame our staid quaker founders I guess.

Really the lack of activity of any American city (besides NY) is stark compared to various cities I've visited in Latin America and Europe. Downtown Portland and Denver are really not that exciting for example. Never been to Australia so can't comment.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by eixample

As a Philadelphian, I agree that Philly's core is not as dynamic as it should or could be. I think white people turning their back on Center City (even ones that never left for the suburbs), the decline of shopping streets and multiple department stores and the lack of really good non-peak and weekend transit all paid a part. It's changing quickly though so check back in 2020 when two major retail/apartment projects on East Market Street are completed. Even when Philly was bustling with people and industry 100+ years ago it was seen as a kind of dull place. Blame our staid quaker founders I guess.

Really the lack of activity of any American city (besides NY) is stark compared to various cities I've visited in Latin America and Europe. Downtown Portland and Denver are really not that exciting for example. Never been to Australia so can't comment.

Thank you for your objectivity!
We loved your city, and Philly has a cool vibe and unique soul, that maybe only visitors get because you live there and take for granted perhaps.
Again, it's good to know that people are returning to the American cores.

Another comparison is Hamilton Ontario...That's as rust belty as you'll get for a Canadian city, yet the last time we were there on a Saturday it still had a fair amount of people milling around compared to other rust belt cities just on the U.S side.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by mhays

I wonder the same thing...festivals don't show normal activity level. They show festivals.

Philly bigger than Boston? Greater Boston is over 8,000,000. Do we really need to explain about the fallacies of "city limits" population again?

Greater Boston is not 8 million. Where did you get that number?

Phila. MSA: 6,096,120 [8th largest]
Boston MSA: 4,836,531 [10th largest -- soon to be 11th when Phoenix passes them up].

Phoenix MSA: 4,737,270

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Greater Boston is not 8 million. Where did you get that number?

Boston has 8 million by CSA (actually a bit larger than Philly by CSA).

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Boston has 8 million by CSA (actually a bit larger than Philly by CSA).

Nobody goes by CSAs though.

Middleton, N.H. is 90 miles north of Boston and it is in the MSA.

90 miles north of Phila. and you're just outside of Manhattan.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Nobody goes by CSAs though.

Tons of people use CSAs. They're an official Census metric, alongside MSAs and UAs.

I don't know what you're arguing re. the distance calculations. Has nothing to do with any Census classification.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Tons of people use CSAs. They're an official Census metric, alongside MSAs and UAs.

You like to argue for the sake of arguing don't you? You're wrong here, pal. Boston is not 8 million people and no it's not larger than Philadelphia whether it's by city limits or Metropolitan Area.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

You like to argue for the sake of arguing don't you?

No, you asked a question and it was answered. Now you don't like the answer and choose to whine.

If you don't like Census metrics, then argue with them. Just whining that something is "fakenews" because you don't like it is pretty juvenile stuff.

[JManc]

I lived in Peterborough NH (71 miles from downtown Boston) and was part of the CSA (not MSA) and Boston was not really a part of anyone's world up there. No one considered themselves in "Boston" but go further south to Nashua and things were very different.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Tons of people use CSAs. They're an official Census metric, alongside MSAs and UAs.

I don't know what you're arguing re. the distance calculations. Has nothing to do with any Census classification.

And yet, very very few people use CSAs when talking with one another in a discussion about downtowns.

This discussion has never been about CSAs.

The city population of Philadelphia has historically been much larger than the city of Boston and that is what matters in the discussion in terms of downtown vibrancy and the urban built form.

Why do I have to point this out to you? You insist on squabbling on everything.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by JManc

I lived in Peterborough NH (71 miles from downtown Boston) and was part of the CSA (not MSA) and Boston was not really a part of anyone's world up there. No one considered themselves in "Boston" but go further south to Nashua and things were very different.

Where were the "local" TV stations (whose weather forecasts cover your area or as close as you can get)? That and what sports teams you root for usually seems to determine what metro you consider yourself part of.

[emathias]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

And yet, very very few people use CSAs when talking with one another in a discussion about downtowns.

This discussion has never been about CSAs.

The city population of Philadelphia has historically been much larger than the city of Boston and that is what matters in the discussion in terms of downtown vibrancy and the urban built form.

Why do I have to point this out to you? You insist on squabbling on everything.

I think vibrancy of downtowns relies on density of the downtown and the catchment area that realistically feeds into the downtown, not the arbitrary population of the political boundaries of the nominal city. Cambridge isn't part of Boston, but absolutely impacts the density and vibrancy of downtown Boston. Of course the same might be said of Camden for Philly. Both cities have very nearby cities/towns to their downtowns and help support density and vibrancy of the downtown areas.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Where were the "local" TV stations (whose weather forecasts cover your area or as close as you can get)? That and what sports teams you root for usually seems to determine what metro you consider yourself part of.

My town was too small to have its own radio or TV so most things came out of Manchester or other bigger NH towns nearby. I listened to NHPR, not WGBH. Sports teams are bit of a stretch since pretty much everyone in New England outside SW CT are Boston fans..eg...people in Burlington VT are die hard Deflatriots/ Sox fans. My hometown in Upstate NY were die hard Yankees/ Giants fans but not exactly part of NYC metro.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by emathias

I think vibrancy of downtowns relies on density of the downtown and the catchment area that realistically feeds into the downtown, not the arbitrary population of the political boundaries of the nominal city. Cambridge isn't part of Boston, but absolutely impacts the density and vibrancy of downtown Boston. Of course the same might be said of Camden for Philly. Both cities have very nearby cities/towns to their downtowns and help support density and vibrancy of the downtown areas.

Neighbouring MSAs within a CSA are only tenuously connected to the downtown core of the central city of the core MSA, otherwise it would be all one MSA instead of multiple MSAs within one CSA. MSA is also more comparable to how metropolitan areas are defined in other countries. Even MSAs already have a less strict, more inclusive definition compared to Canadian CMAs (neighbhouring Canadian municipalities must have 30% commuter interchange to be in the same CMA rather than 25% in US, and CMAs are based on lower-tier municipal boundaries instead of on upper-tier/county boundaries as in the US).

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

The city population of Philadelphia has historically been much larger than the city of Boston and that is what matters in the discussion in terms of downtown vibrancy and the urban built form.

The essentially unbroken urbanity radiates beyond Boston itself. I don't have time right now but eventually want to put together a spreadsheet adding in the surrounding cities to see where Boston really stands in more "apples to apples" comparisons of cities with much larger boundaries. For instance Somerville and Chelsea are the 2 densest cities in Massachusetts and absolutely should be part of the Boston discussion, along with Cambridge, Malden, Everett, Brookline.... Then depending on the comparison throw in Revere, Medford, Newton, Quincy, Watertown, and Arlington and see how things stand from there.

Those first 2 add over 112,000 more people in 6-7 square miles. Cambridge is another 100,000+. The 6 cities mentioned first and foremost along with Boston add 363,705 people, bringing the total area over 1 million people.

The 2nd set of cities mentioned add 355,904 more people. So the pretty much unbroken urban area is over 1.3 million people, with many more in the (still relatively dense) surroundings towns and cities.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by emathias

I think vibrancy of downtowns relies on density of the downtown and the catchment area that realistically feeds into the downtown, not the arbitrary population of the political boundaries of the nominal city. Cambridge isn't part of Boston, but absolutely impacts the density and vibrancy of downtown Boston. Of course the same might be said of Camden for Philly. Both cities have very nearby cities/towns to their downtowns and help support density and vibrancy of the downtown areas.

Yeah, but that's not what Crawford was saying at all. CSAs have nothing to do with any of that, and Crawford knows that, he's just being difficult to be difficult for no reason, except to be difficult.

The Boston CSA population is larger than Philly's because, Philadelphia cannot include the millions of people to it's north because that lies within the New York City MSA/CSA.

--Crawford continues to say, Boston is larger than Philly and that is incorrect and he knows it, everybody knows it that uses common sense.

The Boston MSA alone covers a massively huge geographical area it ranks as a lower density metro area than Philadelphia.

From Middleton, NH [Strafford County] to Mattapoisett, MA [Plymouth County] they are over 150 miles apart and would take you about 2.5 hours to drive across and they are both within the Boston MSA. This region contains 4.8 million. The CSA is a much larger geographic area and an even more ridiculous metric at determining the size of Boston [in an attempt to claim Boston is larger than Phila.]

Why anybody is talking about CSAs in a discussion about downtown vibrancy is anybody's guess.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Doady

and CMAs are based on lower-tier municipal boundaries instead of on upper-tier/county boundaries as in the US).

this is, in my opinion, the great failing of the US census bureau's silly MSA/CSA county mash-up game.

counties are geographically too big to effectively group them together into discreet "metro areas", especially out west where some counties are the size of entire states.

the scene below is in chicago's MSA. it's 81 miles from downtown chicago and at least 40 miles DEEP into indiana corn country. it makes little sense to me to say that this is in a "metro area".

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7658...7i13312!8i6656

the profoundly more fine-grained Urban Area definition (though not without its own faults) has always made a million times more sense to me than MSA/CSA.