Halifax Stadium Discussion

[someone123]

I think the "duty cycle" issue, how frequently the facility is in use, is debatable and a second order concern. Arenas are still generally poor investments in terms of tax dollars generated relative to cost. Maybe one recovers 10% and another recovers 5%, and costs are all over the place so it is impossible to say a priori that one type of building will always be better for the municipal bottom line than another.

The bigger issue is that sports are not very productive. They're primarily a way to capture available entertainment dollars. Other investments aren't like this. Infrastructure like roads or ports or factories can lead to economic activity far in excess of their cost that would not otherwise take place.

From a local perspective it's a bit different because the stadium might be funded by the city and it might allow the city to capture a big more of regional discretionary spending. But it's unlikely to grow the pie much, and I doubt the city will capture enough to make a big difference to the bottom line. It really comes down to a judgement about the value of having a stadium, not dollar returns on public investment.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

The bigger issue is that sports are not very productive. They're primarily a way to capture available entertainment dollars. Other investments aren't like this. Infrastructure like roads or ports or factories can lead to economic activity far in excess of their cost that would not otherwise take place.

I can agree with this, and this topic in particular wades towards stadium location and placement. It can be argued that stadiums can lead to increased local economic activity and property values if built in urban areas, and creating a sort of entertainment district adjacent to the stadium is a recent trend as they look to branch out to being something beyond simply a sports stadium.

Stadiums can be used, in part, as a vehicle to rejuvenate neighbourhoods or local areas of a city, if designed and allocated properly. This can be seen in places like Edmonton and Indianapolis as well as Ottawa. Greenfield stadiums, on the other hand, don't really accomplish this.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Pretty much the only stature that Hamilton has in the national consciousness is because of the Ti-Cats.

There is no question that a CFL team would make Halifax a "big league city." It also would contribute to the civic pride and "social wealth" of the community. This is beyond debate.

The question is - Is it worth the investment????

Agree with all that and the final question as well. If people expect any of this to make money they're crazy but the real question is does a city the size of Halifax (and the larger surrounding area) need this type of infrastructure. I think it does.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by lirette

Regina even moreso with the RoughRiders. They are a huge part of the culture in Saskatchewan. They even lead the CFL in attendance with the smallest city.

And at one time sold the third largest amount of merch (behind the Leafs and Habs IIRC).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by elly63

Agree with all that and the final question as well. If people expect any of this to make money they're crazy but the real question is does a city the size of Halifax (and the larger surrounding area) need this type of infrastructure. I think it does.

I think local Halifax politics tend to be too negative and conservative. It's not good to waste money either but the reality is that this would be a standard thing for a regional centre approaching half a million people to have. I'd go beyond that and say that the stadium facilities in the city are pretty sad, well below what most people would expect.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I feel as if most of the dialogue in the US referring to stadiums not being economic growth drivers derives from massive NFL stadiums and the public funding they suck up. When an article like this one uses "Sports Stadiums" in the title it's mostly referring to NFL stadiums:



Emphasis added mine.

You can come closer to creating economic growth equaling public investment funding with an arena but you stray further from that possibility with a stadium.

FargoDome

[elly63]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

FargoDome

Something resembling a larger FargoDome was bandied about early on as one of the examples for a new Regina stadium.

[elly63]

North Dakota's Fargodome a possible model for new stadium in Regina
Angela Hall Leader-Post July 16, 2009

The Fargodome in North Dakota can seat about 19,000 people for football games.
Photograph by: NDTOURISM.com

REGINA — The Fargodome in North Dakota is one of the facilities that a Saskatchewan company studied as it conducted a review for the government on the options for the future of Mosaic Stadium.

While the report is still under wraps from the public, the president of the company that undertook the review said the domed facility in Fargo was seen as a relevant stadium to explore.

"It's not a big urban centre, and its surrounding area is not unlike Regina with rural area (and) smaller centres," said Bill Shupe of W. Shupe and Company, noting the population of the Fargo-Moorhead area is around 175,000.

"Its anchor tenant is a major football team ... so that would obviously have a similarity to Regina," said Shupe, who is also the executive-in-residence at the University of Regina.

He said one of his associates went to visit the Fargodome to get a sense of what kind of presence it has in that community.

The findings of that $70,000 government-commissioned concept review, which also looked at the possibility of upgrading the existing Mosaic Stadium or building another outdoor stadium, haven't been released yet.

But the provincial government would like to provide an update before the end of the month, a spokesperson said this week.

The province has been talking to the federal government, the Roughriders and the City of Regina.

The next step in the process if it proceeds would be a feasibility study to provide an in-depth look at the preferred option, including specifics such as costs and locations.

Fargodome general manager Rob Sobolik said it's not uncommon for the facility to get inquiries about the domed facility from other jurisdictions.

In addition to division one college football, the facility hosts high school football, basketball and wrestling events, trade shows, traveling Broadway shows, family entertainment shows, rodeo and concerts, Sobolik said.

Capacity for the football games is about 19,000, and can vary for other events depending on seat configuration.

"We average about 105 public event days a year. When you add in move-in, move-out days, it's closer to about 200," he said Wednesday from North Dakota.

Sobolik said when activities such as university practices are added in, the facility is used about 250 days. More is always better, but the facility sees operating revenues exceed operating expenses, he said.

"Event facilities are great. They can be expensive to maintain and you have to take the economic benefit of them into consideration when weighing the pros and cons of it," Sobolik said.

Although Shupe acknowledged Fargodome was one of the stadiums they visited when he was asked about the facility directly, he declined to name others that they looked at in their study.

[Colin May]

HRM has had a 2% hotel tax for over 15 years and the revenue goes to advertising and promotion of HRM as a destination. Hotels in Halifax are very profitable,mostly on the backs of low paid employees.

[elly63]

This mention of FargoDome has given me moment to pause (that's quite the sentence). Is anybody thinking outside the box for the future negotiations. We've all heard the example of the Ottawa model and the Hamilton stadium (and the released drawing, for whatever that was worth?)

What about a real community use fieldhouse like what was thrown about in Calgary. 22k seats and now that Grey Cup revenues are going to be shared, does it really need to be expandable.

I know this isn't and likely won't ever be under consideration but it should.

[Colin May]

https://torontosun.com/sports/footba...wing-argonauts

" Maybe the 10,000-plus fans they announced on Saturday afternoon after a crowd of around 12,000 the week before is supply-and-demand at its most telling.

The Argos have a supply of tickets available at a reasonable price by today’s ticket standards of entertainment products. There just isn’t any demand for them.

The average attendance in the CFL this season, outside of Toronto, is 24,712 a game. The Argos play to less than 50% of that, less than 50% of capacity. In a season going nowhere, the Blue Jays are averaging 29,980 a game. That’s way down from the past two seasons, but way ahead when compared to their football friends.

What’s the answer? MLSE hasn’t found one, neither did Tanenbaum or Braley or Howard Sokolowski or David Cynamon or Sherwood Schwarz or Harry Ornest or Bruce McNall in partnership with Wayne Gretzky and the late John Candy. That’s 10 owners in 29 seasons. Each of them believing they would be different. "

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

https://torontosun.com/sports/footba...wing-argonauts

" Maybe the 10,000-plus fans they announced on Saturday afternoon after a crowd of around 12,000 the week before is supply-and-demand at its most telling.

The Argos have a supply of tickets available at a reasonable price by today’s ticket standards of entertainment products. There just isn’t any demand for them.

The average attendance in the CFL this season, outside of Toronto, is 24,712 a game. The Argos play to less than 50% of that, less than 50% of capacity. In a season going nowhere, the Blue Jays are averaging 29,980 a game. That’s way down from the past two seasons, but way ahead when compared to their football friends.

What’s the answer? MLSE hasn’t found one, neither did Tanenbaum or Braley or Howard Sokolowski or David Cynamon or Sherwood Schwarz or Harry Ornest or Bruce McNall in partnership with Wayne Gretzky and the late John Candy. That’s 10 owners in 29 seasons. Each of them believing they would be different. "

Toronto fancies itself as a major league city. Relocate the Buffalo Bills there and they would sell out Rogers Centre every game. But Torontonians no longer perceive the CFL as major league (and it isn't) so they do not support it. Smaller markets are where the CFL does well.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Colin May

HRM has had a 2% hotel tax for over 15 years and the revenue goes to advertising and promotion of HRM as a destination. Hotels in Halifax are very profitable,mostly on the backs of low paid employees.

I don't think that is unique to Halifax, though, to keep it real.

[dtown]

I don't know if this stadium has been mentioned yet but i was at Saputo Stadium this weekend in Montreal. It is a 20,000 seat stadium that was originally built in 2008 for $17 Million and expanded in 2012 for an additional $23 Million. That puts the total cost around $40 Million (Let's say $45-$50 in today's dollars) As i sat there I couldn't help but think this is the perfect stadium for Halifax. 20,000 is a little small so we would need another 10,000 seats or so but I still can't get around the idea that we need to spend $200 Million on a stadium when you can easily do one similar to this for $100 - $150 and even that seems high. Maybe I am missing something or not informed enough, but Saputo Stadium was pretty basic but very functional and reasonable. It had metal bleachers with cheap plastic seats, concessions were basically emptied containers underneath the bleachers, and it still had quite a few "corporate suites" Anyway, just my

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saputo...o.27.06.12.jpg - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saputo...2012-07-28.jpg - Wikipedia

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by dtown

I don't know if this stadium has been mentioned yet but i was at Saputo Stadium this weekend in Montreal. It is a 20,000 seat stadium that was originally built in 2008 for $17 Million and expanded in 2012 for an additional $23 Million. That puts the total cost around $40 Million (Let's say $45-$50 in today's dollars) As i sat there I couldn't help but think this is the perfect stadium for Halifax. 20,000 is a little small so we would need another 10,000 seats or so but I still can't get around the idea that we need to spend $200 Million on a stadium when you can easily do one similar to this for $100 - $150 and even that seems high. Maybe I am missing something or not informed enough, but Saputo Stadium was pretty basic but very functional and reasonable. It had metal bleachers with cheap plastic seats, concessions were basically emptied containers underneath the bleachers, and it still had quite a few "corporate suites" Anyway, just my

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saputo...o.27.06.12.jpg - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saputo...2012-07-28.jpg - Wikipedia

It's the HRM way, spend double what you need to on any given piece of infrastructure. See also: Central Library, the 4-pad arenas, bike flyover ramp.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Toronto fancies itself as a major league city. Relocate the Buffalo Bills there and they would sell out Rogers Centre every game. But Torontonians no longer perceive the CFL as major league (and it isn't) so they do not support it. Smaller markets are where the CFL does well.

Have to take issue with everything in this post except the first sentence. Firstly, the Bills in Toronto venture was a dismal failure and prematurely aborted. Many make the case Toronto is just not a football town any more, we'll see. Secondly, the Rogers Centre has been decommissioned as a stadium for anything but MLB as it has been permanently reconfigured for baseball.

Despite the name, MLS soccer is not major league, it's not even the best soccer league in North America let alone the world.

I would say CFL football is far closer to major league talent in its sport than MLS is.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Colin May

" Maybe the 10,000-plus fans they announced on Saturday afternoon after a crowd of around 12,000 the week before is supply-and-demand at its most telling.

So aside from showcasing your soccer bias and hatred for CFL football, exactly what is your point?

We're not Toronto, thank God, neither is Regina, (nor Ottawa nor Hamilton in Ontario) and they don't seem to be doing too bad.

Soccer good, football bad, we get it, problem is your auld country sentiments don't apply here.

The people will decide whether we want or don't want a stadium and we don't have any information yet on how that might or might not come about despite your obvious bias in not wanting it to happen because of your fear any football success will diminish your beloved soccer.

[Nouvellecosse]

If we do get a CFL team, do we know what it'll be named? My vote goes to "The Halifax Smooth Riders"

Or better yet, The Smooth Sailors!

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

If we do get a CFL team, do we know what it'll be named? My vote goes to "The Halifax Smooth Riders"

Or better yet, The Smooth Sailors!

It will be the Atlantic "Somethings" (likely Schooners) as stated by the POG about a million times, and for some unknown reason some people keep ignoring.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by dtown

I don't know if this stadium has been mentioned yet but i was at Saputo Stadium this weekend in Montreal. As i sat there I couldn't help but think this is the perfect stadium for Halifax. 20,000 is a little small so we would need another 10,000 seats or so but I still can't get around the idea that we need to spend $200 Million on a stadium when you can easily do one similar to this for $100 - $150 and even that seems high. Maybe I am missing something or not informed enough, but Saputo Stadium was pretty basic but very functional and reasonable. It had metal bleachers with cheap plastic seats, concessions were basically emptied containers underneath the bleachers, and it still had quite a few "corporate suites" Anyway, just my

The CFL "sweet spot" is now 24k seats with about 1.5k of those being standing party deck areas. 30k is way too much (in this area) to create ticket scarcity and subsequently demand.

With the present TSN TV contract 18k is seen as the break even point.

What I would like to see and what will likely happen are two different things. Pound for pound, Regina has the best stadium in Canada, 33.5k seats at originally 280 million cost. With some additions I believe it came in sub 300 million. I would love to see what you could get with 10k less seats and missing the quirky roof.





What the ownership seems to be looking at is a version of Tim Hortons Field in Hamilton (24k seats, 1.5k of which are standing party decks) at a cost of 145 million of which 25 million of that was intended for contingency costs.



Unfortunately, to me the best solution would be an enclosed 22k seat community field house (minus adjoining arena seen below) like that which was proposed for Calgary.







In my opinion Saputo is aiming our sights a little low but if that's what it will have to take then so be it but my question remains how does tiny Regina build a palace like that and keep the people happy and able to fund the place. Surely Halifax could do as well on a much smaller scale, hell even Moncton was able to do better than Halifax has so far without going into financial ruin.