Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[azsunsurfer]

https://www.phoenix.gov/pdd/pz/north...treet-corridor

This is what I was talking about. It's in the northern part of the City and it could take advantage of the planned NE extension....

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

https://www.phoenix.gov/pdd/pz/north...treet-corridor

This is what I was talking about. It's in the northern part of the City and it could take advantage of the planned NE extension....

Worked on this plan back in College back in 2011

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

https://www.phoenix.gov/pdd/pz/north...treet-corridor

This is what I was talking about. It's in the northern part of the City and it could take advantage of the planned NE extension....

I'm a fan and have mentioned this as a good 'complete streets' demonstration project since it has local support which is half of the battle.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Even if the council doesn't go in that direction, I suspect that any studies of high-capacity transit for that corridor will show there's just not enough ROI for a route that would pass by or through several miles of desert preserve with little potential for transit-oriented development.

Redevelopment is but one thing to consider. A few miles of 55 MPH trains on the 51 would collapse a public transit nightmare for anyone trying to get to PV mall from Downtown. It's 90 minutes to do that on bus which is three times as much as it takes to drive.

Moreover, it would increasingly negate the argument that LRT serves a small subset of the population which is used to deny further investment of LRT.

[xymox]

Originally Posted by combusean

Redevelopment is but one thing to consider. A few miles of 55 MPH trains on the 51 would collapse a public transit nightmare for anyone trying to get to PV mall from Downtown. It's 90 minutes to do that on bus which is three times as much as it takes to drive.

Moreover, it would increasingly negate the argument that LRT serves a small subset of the population which is used to deny further investment of LRT.

I know its a pipe dream - but I think we really need some commuter rail to help with transit issues valley wide. Put stations out in Anthem, Surprise, Peoria, Chandler, etc and bring them into other key areas (downtown, airpark, tempe, etc) where you can then use light rail or bus - or simply walk - to your destination. I'm betting ridership would be extremely high. Just relying on light rail to spread valley wide will take another 50 years and ultimately won't be any faster than expanded bus service.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by combusean

Moreover, it would increasingly negate the argument that LRT serves a small subset of the population which is used to deny further investment of LRT.

Yes, and that's why a northeast Phoenix line was included in the Proposition 104 map -- to make it seem like light rail could eventually go to every corner of the city. That pleased some folks in northeast Phoenix, but horrified others. Regardless, the city council took one more step yesterday towards raiding the funds for the northeast extension and using them for road maintenance instead:

https://downtowndevil.com/2018/09/21...ouncil-weighs/

I'm still looking for these "deteriorating streets." I had a business meeting in Cave Creek yesterday. Most of the route I took was very good condition, with some of the streets looking almost brand new. As I drove up Cave Creek Road, I saw one improvement project underway with signs crediting the project funding to T2050 / Proposition 104 (current allocations, not the potential raid the council is contemplating).

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Yes, and that's why a northeast Phoenix line was included in the Proposition 104 map -- to make it seem like light rail could eventually go to every corner of the city. That pleased some folks in northeast Phoenix, but horrified others. Regardless, the city council took one more step yesterday towards raiding the funds for the northeast extension and using them for road maintenance instead:

https://downtowndevil.com/2018/09/21...ouncil-weighs/

I'm still looking for these "deteriorating streets." I had a business meeting in Cave Creek yesterday. Most of the route I took was very good condition, with some of the streets looking almost brand new. As I drove up Cave Creek Road, I saw one improvement project underway with signs crediting the project funding to T2050 / Proposition 104 (current allocations, not the potential raid the council is contemplating).

Not sure where you live, but if you’re expecting deteriorating streets on the way to Cave Creek you’re looking in the wrong place. Central Phoenix streets are pretty bad. All of the construction hasn’t helped as they are constantly ripping up parts of the roads to put in sewers, utilities, etc. Also, the heavy equipment from the construction takes its toll.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by xymox

I know its a pipe dream - but I think we really need some commuter rail to help with transit issues valley wide. Put stations out in Anthem, Surprise, Peoria, Chandler, etc and bring them into other key areas (downtown, airpark, tempe, etc) where you can then use light rail or bus - or simply walk - to your destination. I'm betting ridership would be extremely high. Just relying on light rail to spread valley wide will take another 50 years and ultimately won't be any faster than expanded bus service.

Unfortunately there is no poltical will nor the budget for such an undertaking.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Not sure where you live, but if you’re expecting deteriorating streets on the way to Cave Creek you’re looking in the wrong place. Central Phoenix streets are pretty bad. All of the construction hasn’t helped as they are constantly ripping up parts of the roads to put in sewers, utilities, etc. Also, the heavy equipment from the construction takes its toll.

I'd agree that there are more issues with Central Phoenix streets. They're older, so naturally they'll have more wear-and-tear. The reason I mentioned the drive to Cave Creek is that most of the initiative to raid rail for street maintenance is coming from city council members who represent the north side of town.

[DesertRay]

This report sounds like a hit job. Of course 70% of streets are "less than optimum." Optimum is the top category. I would like a comparison with other cities of our size, and let's talk about the categories (also, where the hell is a link to that report). Raiding a pot of money that citizens expressly chose to pay into for rail for anything else would destroy any faith that the voters had in the city. These pro-car anti-tax zealots need to get off their keesters and get people to pay extra taxes to get the streets to shiny perfection. It's on them. I've lived in Southern California and the Midwest, and Phoenix's streets are FAR better than anywhere else I have lived. The anti-democratic liquidation and theft of voter money to save city politicians the trouble of doing their job pitching the actual cost of doing business is sickening. Everyone who votes to have this diversion will have an army of angry voters who will never agree to anything they propose. It's a good one-way ticket back into obscurity.

[TakeFive]

Big YUGE Mess I see

I suspect this is about a lot more than being provincial. Road maintenance priority is ALWAYS Arterial roads 1st, then Collector roads and so on.

We already know that Streetsblog philosophy doesn't sell so well in Phoenix.

https://downtowndevil.com/2018/09/21...ouncil-weighs/

Sweat said any option that requires the city to take on debt is fiscally irresponsible.

“Acquiring debt is no way to pay for regular maintenance,” he said. “If the city takes on debt, that tells you that we’re not taking in enough revenue.”

Interestingly that's the same talking point deployed a year ago in Denver and it didn't sell there either. It was more typically expressed as road maintenance should be handled by road maintenance budget and not by bonding intended for capital investment projects.

But honestly, Tristahn Schaub is right, articulates the issue well.

“Our roads are deteriorating,” said Tristahn Schaub, vice president of the Arcadia Camelback Mountain Neighborhood Association. “We do appreciate and support the forward-thinking goals of T2050, Complete Streets and the bike master plan, but all of these goals are only achievable because we have streets.”

[CrestedSaguaro]

Special Council Meeting coming up on Wednesday, the 26th regarding the South Central extension. The independent party that was brought in has put up a pretty good report for the City Council to review with around 455 questions that were asked by the local community of South Central.

All the questions can be viewed on the Special Meeting agenda. Overall, this sounds somewhat positive (having read around half of the questions so far). The residents do seem receptive if they get their voice heard and are asking lots of really good questions that are all addressed by the 3rd party facilitator.

The upcoming meeting agenda and questions can be viewed here: https://www.phoenix.gov/cityclerksit...%20Meeting.pdf

[TakeFive]

First task is to understand the problem

Let's look at one important ingredient to the soup
Prop 104 passed in Aug of 2015. The year prior presumably used to estimate costs, crude old was selling in a range between $47 and $52 per barrel. Crude prices didn't bottom until early 2016 near $30 a barrel but it's been mostly a slow crawl up the ladder ever since. Today's trade is at $71 a barrel which is still waaay better than 2011-2014 when crude traded in a range of $95-$105. See chart if interested.

Crude oil costs, albeit important, is only one of many cost components.

Bottom Line:
I'm sure Phoenix Public Works has current numbers but I'll guess maintenance costs are now 35-40% higher. If the maintenance budget was woefully underfunded in 2015 then any increases in their budget have been eaten by cost increases.

[TakeFive]

Bond Baby Bond

$500 million feels like a good number for accelerating and curing deferred road maintenance.

By way of example, last November Denver passed $930 million in bonding capacity with half designated for transportation of which half of that was for curing deferred maintenance. Given Phoenix easily has 2.25X the road lane miles then Half a $Billion in bonding should substantially catch up on deferred road maintenance.

With Phoenix credit rating, bond rates are still very attractive. Maintenance costs are likely to only go higher especially in Phoenix which is still in ketchup mode. Not sure how deep the doo doo but hopefully this would cure what ails it.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

Special Council Meeting coming up on Wednesday, the 26th regarding the South Central extension. The independent party that was brought in has put up a pretty good report for the City Council to review with around 455 questions that were asked by the local community of South Central.

All the questions can be viewed on the Special Meeting agenda. Overall, this sounds somewhat positive (having read around half of the questions so far). The residents do seem receptive if they get their voice heard and are asking lots of really good questions that are all addressed by the 3rd party facilitator.

The upcoming meeting agenda and questions can be viewed here: https://www.phoenix.gov/cityclerksit...%20Meeting.pdf

The community meetings report is fair, thorough, and really hopeful. If the politicians showed the same humility and patience as the people who conducted
the community meetings, they would harness some of the same positive energy that got 75% of the people who live along the South Central extension to be in favor of it. Ask us to help fellow Phoenixians to improve our streets. We'll pay for it if we talk about it more extensively, and carefully address real needs.

[AnthonyPHX]

Got a community mailer this morning:
The Environmental Assessment for the Northwest Phase II Light Rail extension is complete and a community meeting will be held Oct 4th to present the results. This is a big milestone for the project and clears the way for construction to begin next year, assuming the funds aren't all diverted on Wednesday's City Council meeting toward paving our streets with diamonds.

The assessment is published here and contains some very detailed diagrams of the proposed design.

Among the Highlights:

• The route will cross EB Dunlap Traffic at C-street and move into the center, continue to 25th ave [station] and then cross the WB Dunlap traffic to run NB along 25th ave past Rose Mofford Sport Complex [station] to Mountain view. From there, it will run WB along Mountain View and begin elevating to cross the I-17. Once over I-17, it will turn NB and sit just along the highway for its final stop [station].
• The I-17 crossing and Light Rail station at Metrocenter will be elevated above grade. The station itself will sit above the Southbound I-17 frontage road. << Super cool
• The assessment recognizes that the I-17 represents a significant barrier between Central and West Phoenix, and that this contributes to significant traffic congestion especially at the pinch-point crossings of Dunlap/Peoria/Cactus/Thunderbird. It also recognizes that the infrastructure in that area is anything but pedestrian/bike friendly.
• The report was unclear whether the rail bridge will include pedestrian/bike access. The report is massive so it's possible I just didn't find a mention. I emailed the Project's Community Outreach director re if she can confirm one way or the other.
• Interesting note: At one point, an elevated train was considered to run above I-17 from either Bethany Home or Dunlap up to Metrocenter and beyond. This was eliminated due to high cost/mile and low redevelopment opportunity.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by AnthonyPHX

Got a community mailer this morning:
The Environmental Assessment for the Northwest Phase II Light Rail extension is complete and a community meeting will be held Oct 4th to present the results. This is a big milestone for the project and clears the way for construction to begin next year, assuming the funds aren't all diverted on Wednesday's City Council meeting toward paving our streets with diamonds.

The assessment is published here and contains some very detailed diagrams of the proposed design.

Among the Highlights:

• The route will cross EB Dunlap Traffic at C-street and move into the center, continue to 25th ave [station] and then cross the WB Dunlap traffic to run NB along 25th ave past Rose Mofford Sport Complex [station] to Mountain view. From there, it will run WB along Mountain View and begin elevating to cross the I-17. Once over I-17, it will turn NB and sit just along the highway for its final stop [station].
• The I-17 crossing and Light Rail station at Metrocenter will be elevated above grade. The station itself will sit above the Southbound I-17 frontage road. << Super cool
• The assessment recognizes that the I-17 represents a significant barrier between Central and West Phoenix, and that this contributes to significant traffic congestion especially at the pinch-point crossings of Dunlap/Peoria/Cactus/Thunderbird. It also recognizes that the infrastructure in that area is anything but pedestrian/bike friendly.
• The report was unclear whether the rail bridge will include pedestrian/bike access. The report is massive so it's possible I just didn't find a mention. I emailed the Project's Community Outreach director re if she can confirm one way or the other.
• Interesting note: At one point, an elevated train was considered to run above I-17 from either Bethany Home or Dunlap up to Metrocenter and beyond. This was eliminated due to high cost/mile and low redevelopment opportunity.

Sounds encouraging. Two thoughts:

1) Was there any mention of sound insulation for the elevated rail platform? A blog I follow (can’t remember which one) recently documented just how much noise passengers are exposed at some Los Angeles rail platforms located in freeway medians.

2) Bike/ped passage across the rail bridge sounds nice, but maybe not essential since the AZ Canal path is just a quarter mile to the south.

[azsunsurfer]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Sounds encouraging. Two thoughts:

1) Was there any mention of sound insulation for the elevated rail platform? A blog I follow (can’t remember which one) recently documented just how much noise passengers are exposed at some Los Angeles rail platforms located in freeway medians.

2) Bike/ped passage across the rail bridge sounds nice, but maybe not essential since the AZ Canal path is just a quarter mile to the south.

It's public transportation, not waiting to board a Gulfstream...they will be fine. I've taken the Green line in Los Angeles, the noise is manageable.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

2) Bike/ped passage across the rail bridge sounds nice, but maybe not essential since the AZ Canal path is just a quarter mile to the south.

Yes, my read of the document is that they're not going to put bike/ped facilities on the actual light rail bridge, but are going to do crossing improvements at the nearby AZ Canal crossing.

[vwwolfe]

I'm happy that they would be adapting the Souper Salad building into the new transit center and not demolishing it.