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  #41  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
You have to admit its nice to see things like an ace hardware in that kind of environment.

I guess you can get almost anything delivered in a city like SF by a app-based service with a cutesy name so maybe its not so important anymore, but cities should have more than just expensive restaurants and whole foods.
Don't worry about that in SF. The ban on chain stores in many neighborhoods and the number of people maintaining old houses means that independent hardware stores are flourishing. Another thing that helps them is we don't have a Home Depot. They were going to move into one of the outer neighbrohoods but the recession came along and they decided against it. So Lowe's took the spot and are now one of the few big box stores in town (along with CostCo).

Actually, that makes me think: We do have a very urban sort of "strip mall" in SOMA made up of a block of rehabbed older buildings surrounding a parking lot in the center of the block--and the main entrances to the stores also face inward to that lot. So what you see from the street looks like a bunch of old warehouses but go through the several passageways into the interior of the block and you see all the activity.


http://www.crosspointrealty.com/wp-c...eet-101716.pdf

From the street it looks like this:


https://neighborland.com/ideas/sf-so...f-the-trader-j

Last edited by Pedestrian; Apr 13, 2019 at 6:33 PM.
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  #42  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 9:30 PM
DePaul Bunyan DePaul Bunyan is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I tire of this argument. Everybody who defends auto-oriented devopment always goes to the extreme of conjuring up images of some rickety old lady with a walker, one slip and fall away from a hip fracture.

Does that really define the demographic of Wicker Park and Bucktown? When you look at the retail mix of the two strip malls I posted, do they look like places catering to old grandmas?

Chicago was largely built around the pedestrian, and we should keep that the priority at least in the core neighborhoods. Strip malls don’t belong there.
There are over 50 million people aged 65 and up in this country, over 15% of the population, and falls are the leading cause of injury-related ER visits. The only people going to extremes here are you, in your outrage over automobiles and in ignoring very real demographic realities and concerns.

This sub suffers from endemic smugness and people projecting their biases and lifestyle choices onto the rest of society. Cars did not ruin America's cities, and not everybody walked everywhere before the advent of the automobile. Before the car there were horses, buggies, carriages, etc. And people had to park them in town, in front of taverns, saloons, general stores, etc. Pre-war urbanism was not a utopia, it was dirty and defined by tenement housing and slums for the majority of the population.
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  #43  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 9:42 PM
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There's parking in many or even most buildings other than strip malls. If parking is below, there's an elevator. So what's your point again?

Is this like the "war on cars" where anything short of total domination by cars is considered a "war"?
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  #44  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Here is an example of when that's not the case:

3311 N Milwaukee Ave
Which replaced this:
Yeah I will admit that even back in the 1920s when Chicago's outer neighborhoods were very unfinished, the corner parcels at major intersections tended to have mixed-use buildings on them, since they could capture a reliable stream of customers from the people who were transferring between streetcar/bus lines.
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  #45  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
For those of you who can’t understand my outrage over strip malls, I would say that you would understand best if you spent a lot of time in Chicago.

You’ve got this large, very urban city that was perhaps only 80% built out before 1950

After that you have a shift in development patterns which, as Steely Dan put it, “shoehorned” many strip malls within an urban and walkable context.

Now that walkable urbanism is back in vogue, these strip malls look ugly and out of place. You look at them and say “who the hell thought this was a good idea?”
Isn't that because Chicago declined by nearly 1 million people from it's Peak?

What was dense was abandoned, cleared and along came a developer to fill in that blighted lot with new retail. That new retail now looks aesthetically bad.
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  #46  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 11:18 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Isn't that because Chicago declined by nearly 1 million people from it's Peak?

What was dense was abandoned, cleared and along came a developer to fill in that blighted lot with new retail. That new retail now looks aesthetically bad.
Not really. You likely just don’t understand the history of Chicago’s built environment. Population decline is really not a major reason why strip malls were built. As I explained earlier, most strip malls were not built upon a site where dense development was “cleared away”. Not that there aren’t some examples of that, but the story is a lot more about changing development patterns as car ownership increased in a city that had not really finished getting built out.
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  #47  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2019, 11:20 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by DePaul Bunyan View Post
There are over 50 million people aged 65 and up in this country, over 15% of the population, and falls are the leading cause of injury-related ER visits. The only people going to extremes here are you, in your outrage over automobiles and in ignoring very real demographic realities and concerns.

This sub suffers from endemic smugness and people projecting their biases and lifestyle choices onto the rest of society. Cars did not ruin America's cities, and not everybody walked everywhere before the advent of the automobile. Before the car there were horses, buggies, carriages, etc. And people had to park them in town, in front of taverns, saloons, general stores, etc. Pre-war urbanism was not a utopia, it was dirty and defined by tenement housing and slums for the majority of the population.

99% of America is fully convenient by car. It’s not too much to ask for us to have some core urban neighborhoods of our greatest cities to be more focused around the need of the pedestrian. I say this as a suburbanite who drives and is a practicing physician who treats the elderly and signs handicap placard forms every day. So please spare me the outrage, and how about remembering the fact that you’re on Skyscraperpage, a forum devoted to cities and urbanism.

Your tone here is about as a silly as a free market Capitalist joining a Socialist forum and complaining about how everyone is so smugly against people making a profit.
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  #48  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Not really. You likely just don’t understand the history of Chicago’s built environment. Population decline is really not a major reason why strip malls were built. As I explained earlier, most strip malls were not built upon a site where dense development was “cleared away”. Not that there aren’t some examples of that, but the story is a lot more about changing development patterns as car ownership increased in a city that had not really finished getting built out.
You're right, I don't understand Chicago like a local would.

My question is:
How did that strip mall get there in a dense environment? -- My hypothesis is that is was blighted due to the fact that Chicago declined greatly from it's peak. The city had an option to clear the abandoned blight [like what Detroit has had to do] and make way for a new development that clears the blight and brings back tax generating retail that made sense at the time, but now seems short sighted given the influx of development in parts of Chicago.
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  #49  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
You're right, I don't understand Chicago like a local would.

How did that strip mall get there in a dense environment? -- My hypothesis is that is was blighted due to the fact that Chicago declined greatly from it's peak. The city had an option to clear the abandoned blight [like what Detroit has had to do] and make way for a new development that clears the blight and brings back tax generating retail that made sense at the time, but now seems short sighted given the influx of development in parts of Chicago.
The Clybourn Corridor (the biggest Chicago strip mall retail corridor) didn't get developed because of decline, but because of gentrification. All the high earning young households buy stuff too, and so the big box retailers are going where their market lives.

As to "why aren't they building it in an urban format", retailers are loathe to do that unless you're talking somewhere like Manhattan, where they have no choice (and even then, many retailers just say forget it, they're not adjusting, so they avoid Manhattan). Retailers like cookie cutter spaces, and urban-style formats are much more expensive. And urban core Chicago is more car-oriented than many assume, so lots of free parking makes sense.

The corridor seems to be getting better, though. At least the newer stuff has garage parking, and pretends to face the sidewalk.
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  #50  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DePaul Bunyan View Post
There are over 50 million people aged 65 and up in this country, over 15% of the population, and falls are the leading cause of injury-related ER visits. The only people going to extremes here are you, in your outrage over automobiles and in ignoring very real demographic realities and concerns.
Pretty sure it has nothing to do with the elderly, who drive less than younger cohorts, and obviously are more at risk from cars. No one is building strip malls instead of urban format to cater to old folks.
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  #51  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
We all generally hate strip malls.

But we all have one, that really nasty one, that really gets under our skin. It may not be the biggest one out there, it may not even be the most poorly designed one.

But whatever it is--perhaps the placement of it--it just RUINS the streetscape in such a way that it drives you mad.

Please post a pic, or at least a streetview link, to the one that you detest the most.
Here's a thousand foot long strip mall you can shake your fist at as you drive by:
https://goo.gl/maps/NszK7Zd3wdD2

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
There's the wildly out of place "Burger King strip mall" in Brickell surrounded by 50-60 story towers on all sides in Miami. I'm sure it seemed like a nice place for a strip mall in the 70s when it was built but Brickell engulfed it. There are plans to tear it down and build another tower there of course:
https://www.google.com/maps/@25.7663...7i16384!8i8192
I hope that new tower has some ground floor retail instead of another giant parking podium. I don't mind strip malls in suburban areas but stuff like this makes no sense to me. It's not the fault of the strip mall either - it's everything around it. Here you have one of the densest residential areas in the country, yet it is comprised of buildings that have absolutely zero engagement with the street. All that frontage that's just taken up by blank walls and giant parking podiums. What a waste. It is density without purpose or benefit, and all too common in modern condo developments. It shouldn't be the case that a crappy little strip mall is the most charming, interesting and engaging building in that intersection.
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  #52  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 3:21 AM
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This one, about a half mile from my place, is the heart of Wilmington's most popular urban neighborhood, Trolley Square:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7577.../data=!3m1!1e3

Apart from being ugly, what frustrates me is that this shopping center, which fronts either side of the block, contains hidden, internal parking between the two sides. But instead of pushing the strip to the sidewalks along the street and including all parking in the middle of the complex, they separate the strip from the street with parking on either side of the building.

It's not all bad--limited entrances, apartments above the stores, and limited parking--but it's still a frustrating use of space in otherwise great urban fabric.
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  #53  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 3:37 AM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
You're right, I don't understand Chicago like a local would.

My question is:
How did that strip mall get there in a dense environment? -- My hypothesis is that is was blighted due to the fact that Chicago declined greatly from it's peak. The city had an option to clear the abandoned blight [like what Detroit has had to do] and make way for a new development that clears the blight and brings back tax generating retail that made sense at the time, but now seems short sighted given the influx of development in parts of Chicago.
Chicago’s population decline really has little at all to do with strip malls.

As Crawford pointed out, one of the biggest offenders is the Clybourn Corridor, adjacent to one of the city’s most prosperous neighborhoods that really never went into significant decline.

The story is more about vacant or industrial land simply getting developed during an era of high car ownership. It’s really that simple.

Bad planning for sure, as some of the strip malls are adjacent to highly sought after transit stops. And we have seen some of those strip malls bite the dust.

But it will take decades to undo the damage.
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  #54  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 7:01 AM
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Yeah I hate ease and convenience!
As long as you can drive there, that's all that matters.
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  #55  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 2:43 PM
DePaul Bunyan DePaul Bunyan is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
99% of America is fully convenient by car. It’s not too much to ask for us to have some core urban neighborhoods of our greatest cities to be more focused around the need of the pedestrian. I say this as a suburbanite who drives and is a practicing physician who treats the elderly and signs handicap placard forms every day. So please spare me the outrage, and how about remembering the fact that you’re on Skyscraperpage, a forum devoted to cities and urbanism.

Your tone here is about as a silly as a free market Capitalist joining a Socialist forum and complaining about how everyone is so smugly against people making a profit.
The guy who posts this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
We all generally hate strip malls.

But we all have one, that really nasty one, that really gets under our skin. It may not be the biggest one out there, it may not even be the most poorly designed one.

But whatever it is--perhaps the placement of it--it just RUINS the streetscape in such a way that it drives you mad.

Please post a pic, or at least a streetview link, to the one that you detest the most.

I will post a link to mine. I've hated this one for at least 15 years. It's in Wicker Park in Chicago in what is otherwise an awesomely urban streetscape full of classic buildings, neat businesses, transit, walkability, hip vibe, etc etc.

And in the midst of it all, some FUCKING ASSHOLE DEVELOPER built, perhaps some time in the 90s, this utter suburban piece of shit:

https://goo.gl/maps/wvWJeYCLtbH2

There is only one other strip mall that maybe pisses me off this much....actually probably a lot more than that, but to keep this thread on focus, I'll start with this one.
...really has no business criticizing anyone else's tone.

As others have pointed out, these developments are decent ways to to bring in tax revenue and economic activity. Think of them as placeholders. Eventually the land value will reach a point where it makes sense to tear down and redevelop denser residential and commercial space. And there isn't even that much parking in your example. And outside of Manhattan and maybe the densest parts of SF, cars aren't going anywhere. Neither are streets. There just aren't any pre-industrial cities in North America with ultra-dense, European-style urbanism.
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 3:30 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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^ I view them as placeholders as well.

I just don’t want them to be “in place” for much longer.

Anyhow,you aren’t really telling me anything I don’t know. I understand the economic reason why they exist (As a real estate investor I’ve even made queries about buying strip malls in the past). But I still despise them aesthetically, and if that makes me “smug” then at least for this matter, I wear my “smugness” proudly. Could you please now stop posting in my thread with all of your misplaced outrage?
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
What's so offensive about these strip malls? They look like typical ugly strip malls, all over the U.S. And they're obviously in urban centers too.

If you think urbanites, generally speaking, live wildly different lives than those in sprawl, take a trip over to Chicago's Clybourn Corridor on a weekend. Endless strip malls everywhere, and they're all packed with locals. Those "urban elitists" are all in their SUVs going to the big box stores like everyone else.
These are suburban transplants. But that’s what most urban elites are, I guess.

You can move a 30-something Big Ten grad to Lincoln Park, but you can’t eradicate their upbringing going to Costco in some sprawl burb.

I can’t imagine anything worse than trying to pile into a car to fight that traffic and parking situation though.
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Last edited by 10023; Apr 14, 2019 at 5:49 PM.
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  #58  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 4:58 PM
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Every urban strip mall is a policy failure.
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  #59  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2019, 10:08 PM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
These are suburban transplants. But that’s what most urban elites are, I guess.

You can move a 30-something Big Ten grad to Lincoln Park, but you can’t eradicate their upbringing going to Costco in some sprawl burb.

I can’t imagine anything worse than trying to pile into a car to fight that traffic and parking situation though.


There's a lot worse than that, even if you ticked off everything on your list of First World problems. There are Costcos in England too, by the way.

Last edited by montréaliste; Apr 14, 2019 at 10:22 PM.
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  #60  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2019, 12:11 AM
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There's a lot worse than that, even if you ticked off everything on your list of First World problems. There are Costcos in England too, by the way.
CostCos and other Big Box retailers are everywhere, including those cool elite cities.

Here's a bombshell: It turns out that consumers, no matter if they live in an urban, suburban or rural environment will look for the best deals possible anywhere and everywhere.
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