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  #1481  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Amtrak runs one train in each direction - the Southwest Chief - over the railroad corridor. Virgin is going to want to run many trains a day between LA and LV. How can all those trains follow immediately behind the "one" Amtrak train?
It's the multiple passenger trains per day service that has prevented access to more passenger trains per day over this corridor. X-train, or whatever it will be called, are wanting to run one round trip per week - a Friday departure from LA and a Sunday return to LA. It's definitely far easier to talk UP or BNSF to add one round trip passenger train per week - it will be an entirely different manner talking about adding multiple round trips per day. I do not see that happening over a crowded freight rail corridor.
I agree it would be silly to have only one VTUSA train go into LA per day, following behind the Southwest Chief (which is often late anyway).

What I meant was that VTUSA would run many trains per day into LA using the same scheduled running speeds between stations as the Southwest Chief. Not all VTUSA trains would be able to continue to LA - at least not initially - but even if they could only manage to run trains past Victorville ever 2-3 hours it would still be far superior to not running any.

This is why I think it is critical to work with BNSF Railway instead of UP or Metrolink, because BNSF is the most like VTUSA in terms of pushing new technologies. BNSF was among the first Class I railroad to implement Positive Train Control, and they seem to be the most aggressive in pushing for the optimizations allowed by it. For example, in a full PTC scenario, a VTUSA would be able to follow more closely behind a 'hotshot' intermodal train than it could by relying on Block Signals alone - and by doing this would not add significantly to the overall traffic on the line.

A new third track between Los Angeles and Fullerton has recently added capacity that can be utilized.

BNSF also owns the line through Cajon pass, which will be a critical area to get priority in since freight trains slow down as they climb that grade. The line is currently tripple-tracked, so there is usually a passing track available, and PTC will allow more of that capacity to be used by passenger trains.

Also, I do not expect BNSF to do this out of charity. They are a business, just like VTUSA. I expect VTUSA will be able to pay BNSF a fair price for access to their tracks; heck, they could even have Victorville be a crew-change point where BNSF engine crews take over and drive the train the rest of the way into LA (BNSF operates Metra commuter trains in Chicago and Sounder commuter trains in Seattle when those trains run on BNSF rails). The point is that, so long as BNSF is earning just as much money by running/allowing these new passenger trains as they do from running freight trains, they will have all the incentives they need to make space for VTUSA.

Last edited by Hatman; Jun 11, 2019 at 3:43 PM. Reason: Adding links for sources
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  #1482  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
I did not realize the LA metro area has such crappy rail capacity! That sure explains the pathetic Metrolink schedules.
This problem is most specific to the San Bernardino line, but exists on others as well. Here is one of the sections where I have no idea how capacity could ever be added:



It really speaks to LA car-culture. Measure the width allotted to cars, and compare that to the width for trains. Then consider that even then the train has been handicapped by having only one track, and it becomes even more depressing.

This is also why it will be so important to run trains all the way into Los Angeles. Sure, trains can run with a higher top speed on an exclusive ROW in the desert, but that is not (generally) where the congestion and delays occur. Very few people going to drive through all the traffic jams of Los Angeles only to park their car at Victorville - the moment they emerge from all the congestion that has been driving them nuts.
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  #1483  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 6:24 PM
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This whole conversation is finger in the dyke stuff. The country needs about a trillion dollars into rail and transit to turn around the nightmarish disaster that we've created for ourselves by building our civilization around the automobile for the last 80 years. The private sector isn't going to spend the funds neccessary to build true high speed connectivity, hence fun painted trains crossing hundreds of dangerous grade crossings at about 100mph. Do I need to remind anyone Japan is introducing a 250mph bullet train? The country is currently a joke when it comes to how behind we are and how much we have royally fucked up the way people in modern rich nations should be getting around. It's going to take a collossal amount of revolutionary investment along with shifting to green energy to dig us out of this reality. Remember that the next time the GOP and that dipshit disgrace of a human wants to give GE another several billion dollar tax cut.
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  #1484  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 6:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
This whole conversation is finger in the dyke stuff. The country needs about a trillion dollars into rail and transit to turn around the nightmarish disaster that we've created for ourselves by building our civilization around the automobile for the last 80 years. The private sector isn't going to spend the funds neccessary to build true high speed connectivity, hence fun painted trains crossing hundreds of dangerous grade crossings at about 100mph. Do I need to remind anyone Japan is introducing a 250mph bullet train? The country is currently a joke when it comes to how behind we are and how much we have royally fucked up the way people in modern rich nations should be getting around. It's going to take a collossal amount of revolutionary investment along with shifting to green energy to dig us out of this reality. Remember that the next time the GOP and that dipshit disgrace of a human wants to give GE another several billion dollar tax cut.
Not every train in Japan runs at 100, 150, or 200 mph. Only a few do.

Japan's first HSR line runs from Tokyo to Osaka. Some population facts to consider:
(1) Tokyo metro area has a population of 37.8 million
(2) Osaka metro population has a population of 19.3 million
(3) Japan has a population of 126.8 million
(4) Therefore, Tokyo and Osaka population makes up 45% of Japan's.
Math = 37.8 + 19.3 / 126.8 = 57.1 / 126.8 x 100 = 45.03
(5)The distance between Tokyo and Osaka is 506 kilometers, or 314 miles.
Cities between Tokyo and Osaka include Nagoya at 6.8 million and other cities with less than one million.

(6)Meanwhile, the "entire" State of California has a population of 39.5 million, just slightly more than Tokyo by itself.
(7 & 8)The area of California is 163.6 thousands square miles, the area of Japan is 145.9 thousands square miles.
Some more math= 126,800 / 145.9 = 869; and 39,500 / 163.6 = 241
(9)Therefore Japan is more three times denser than California.
Please do not suggest the population densities are anywhere close to being similar.
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  #1485  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 1:08 PM
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You're missing the forest for the trees. I never said anything about Japan other than to throw out the anecdote of the new bullet train. I'm not sure why you had to drag out all that nerdery. Spain has always been a better example to California anyways. Do some Spain vs California math whydon'tya.
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  #1486  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
This whole conversation is finger in the dyke stuff. The country needs about a trillion dollars into rail and transit to turn around the nightmarish disaster that we've created for ourselves by building our civilization around the automobile for the last 80 years. The private sector isn't going to spend the funds neccessary to build true high speed connectivity, hence fun painted trains crossing hundreds of dangerous grade crossings at about 100mph. Do I need to remind anyone Japan is introducing a 250mph bullet train? The country is currently a joke when it comes to how behind we are and how much we have royally fucked up the way people in modern rich nations should be getting around. It's going to take a collossal amount of revolutionary investment along with shifting to green energy to dig us out of this reality. Remember that the next time the GOP and that dipshit disgrace of a human wants to give GE another several billion dollar tax cut.
That's true, but what are we supposed to do until that trillion dollars shows up?
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  #1487  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 3:26 PM
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I don't have all the answers, all I know is when it comes to infrastructure and transport I'm not an incrementalist. I'm afraid that some of these conventional rail projects are not helping us get to where we want to be, they are delaying it or preventing it alltogether. I will ask two questions: Now that FEC is operating, does anyone think a true high speed rail network will actually come about in the next 30 years? I have my doubts, because people will say, look we already have a train, see. And as a hypothetical, could the Florida HSR program been revived under a Democratic gov, but now that Brightline seems to have replaced it's goals, would it have even been a conversation? I have my doubts. Go to 10,000 feet. What I see is one of the nations fastest growing states that could have easily justified building out a 160mph HSR map, is now supposed to pretend a conventional speed train operated by Virgin (oooo sexy) is supposed to revolutionize mobility in the state.
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  #1488  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 4:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
I don't have all the answers, all I know is when it comes to infrastructure and transport I'm not an incrementalist. I'm afraid that some of these conventional rail projects are not helping us get to where we want to be, they are delaying it or preventing it alltogether. I will ask two questions: Now that FEC is operating, does anyone think a true high speed rail network will actually come about in the next 30 years? I have my doubts, because people will say, look we already have a train, see. And as a hypothetical, could the Florida HSR program been revived under a Democratic gov, but now that Brightline seems to have replaced it's goals, would it have even been a conversation? I have my doubts. Go to 10,000 feet. What I see is one of the nations fastest growing states that could have easily justified building out a 160mph HSR map, is now supposed to pretend a conventional speed train operated by Virgin (oooo sexy) is supposed to revolutionize mobility in the state.
True HSR in South Florida on the FEC tracks would be difficult because of all the at grade road crossings. It would have to be elevated which would be costly and run into many NIMBYS.
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  #1489  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 5:08 PM
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I'm not at all talking about HSR on FEC tracks. I'm describing the fully grade separated proposal from 15 years ago.
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  #1490  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 5:34 PM
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Now that FEC is operating, does anyone think a true high speed rail network will actually come about in the next 30 years?
This is a fair point. No, I cannot see a viable way it could happen. If a government were to propose one, VTUSA would complain that the government is now subsidizing their competitor. And it would take some serious government investment for VTUSA to upgrade to a true HSR, which would make a lot of people angry that a government is subsidizing a private company.

Now that we've got a private rail service, we're kind of stuck with it. The only thing we can really do is tend the market forces that would allow the private company to expand their service offerings.

I get why this is so disappointing, since it would have been really cool to have an electrified 160 mph+ train that could really show people what they are missing. Instead we get a diesel powered train that will hit 125 mph for a very brief stretch sometime in 2022. Perhaps the segment to Tampa will be close to what was originally proposed, but even then the 125 mph limit will exist, and if timelines for that project are consistent with what we've seen with the Orlando segment, it probably won't open until 2030.

But here's the thing: It Exists. There is an awesome rail terminus in Miami right now, and people are riding around on a for-profit train service for the first time in ~25 years.
Similarly, corridor service between LA and LV has been proposed for years, from maglevs to 220+mph trains to hyperloops and everything else under the sun - but yet today there is nothing. The current VTUSA proposal seems like the most likely thing to actually get built - so I say "Move over revolution, you've had your chance! Let's give incrementalism a try!"

You could see this as the government failing so badly that the private sector can actually make a profit - sort of like a failure to deliver clean drinking water that allows bottled water makers to mark up their prices. I prefer to see it as the first incremental step into a new transportation paradigm. With the rise of robo-taxis, subsidized roads won't be seen so much as an indisputable public good but rather a government subsidy to car-operating companies. People will become passengers wherever they go, so mode will become less important. The market and corporate competition will shape transportation more than planners and policy-makers, which has the potential to cut down on waste.

But to be less grandiose, my desire for VTUSA to use BNSF tracks to run conventionally into LA stem mostly from my impatience to see anything get done. Relying on governments and revolutionary proposals hasn't worked. If I am ever going to ride a train from LA to LV in my lifetime, some compromises will have to be made, and from the corporate perspective of VTUSA, running on freight tracks at conventional speeds seems like the only solution to this as-yet unsolved problem.
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  #1491  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 8:16 PM
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This is a fair point. No, I cannot see a viable way it could happen. If a government were to propose one, VTUSA would complain that the government is now subsidizing their competitor. And it would take some serious government investment for VTUSA to upgrade to a true HSR, which would make a lot of people angry that a government is subsidizing a private company.

Now that we've got a private rail service, we're kind of stuck with it. The only thing we can really do is tend the market forces that would allow the private company to expand their service offerings.

I get why this is so disappointing, since it would have been really cool to have an electrified 160 mph+ train that could really show people what they are missing. Instead we get a diesel powered train that will hit 125 mph for a very brief stretch sometime in 2022. Perhaps the segment to Tampa will be close to what was originally proposed, but even then the 125 mph limit will exist, and if timelines for that project are consistent with what we've seen with the Orlando segment, it probably won't open until 2030.

But here's the thing: It Exists. There is an awesome rail terminus in Miami right now, and people are riding around on a for-profit train service for the first time in ~25 years.
Similarly, corridor service between LA and LV has been proposed for years, from maglevs to 220+mph trains to hyperloops and everything else under the sun - but yet today there is nothing. The current VTUSA proposal seems like the most likely thing to actually get built - so I say "Move over revolution, you've had your chance! Let's give incrementalism a try!"

You could see this as the government failing so badly that the private sector can actually make a profit - sort of like a failure to deliver clean drinking water that allows bottled water makers to mark up their prices. I prefer to see it as the first incremental step into a new transportation paradigm. With the rise of robo-taxis, subsidized roads won't be seen so much as an indisputable public good but rather a government subsidy to car-operating companies. People will become passengers wherever they go, so mode will become less important. The market and corporate competition will shape transportation more than planners and policy-makers, which has the potential to cut down on waste.

But to be less grandiose, my desire for VTUSA to use BNSF tracks to run conventionally into LA stem mostly from my impatience to see anything get done. Relying on governments and revolutionary proposals hasn't worked. If I am ever going to ride a train from LA to LV in my lifetime, some compromises will have to be made, and from the corporate perspective of VTUSA, running on freight tracks at conventional speeds seems like the only solution to this as-yet unsolved problem.
Even with CHSR, they were not going to have trains running at 200 mph north of San Jose, or south of Santa Clarita. Once most HSR trains reach suburbia, they slow down. So a LV to LA train, HSR or not, reaches the LA basin, they will slow down anyways possibly to as slow as 60-80 mph but at least to 110-125 mph.

Taking this conversation to Florida, the only places HSR could achieve 200 mph speeds is on elevated guideways over swamps. Maybe speeds up to 150 mph could have been reached following the Florida Turnpike closely, within the existing right-of-way, but to reach 200 mph speeds it would have had to leave the existing turnpike right-of-way frequently. This would have placed the all train stations in south Florida 10 miles west of the beaches and destinations passengers would have wanted to go. You would of had HSR, but not a great one!

Brightline or Virgin will actually provide a train service to where the passengers wish to go in Florida. How many passenger will it attract is yet to be seen, it will only go faster than 110 mph once it turns west from the beaches heading towards Orlando, on an elevated guideway over a swamp in an existing tollway right-of-way.

Back to LV to LA Virgin HSR trains, does it need to go faster than 125 mph in the LA basin surrounded by suburbia? I do not think so. But I do not think either the BNSF or UP will allow sharing of their tracks for a multiple trains a day passenger service. So Brightline will probably have to build an elevated guideway from San Bernardino to LA, or Santa Clarita to LA following an existing freeways or other transportation corridors. Here is another reason why CHSR should have built the LA to Bakersfield section first, because with its absence it makes it extremely difficult to build a HSR from LV all the way into LA.

It is far more important to match the trains speeds to what is politically and economically possible than to what is technically possible. It is technically possible to have jet liners travel faster than the speed of sound, but not everywhere politically and economically. Sure, HSR is technically possible, but is it politically and economically everywhere?

Last edited by electricron; Jun 12, 2019 at 8:42 PM.
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  #1492  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 4:32 PM
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I'm not at all talking about HSR on FEC tracks. I'm describing the fully grade separated proposal from 15 years ago.
The issue is there is no space. Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach Counties are fully built out on the east side of the counties (Broward is fully built out). Where would the tracks go?
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  #1493  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2019, 10:22 PM
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An extremely low-cost way to build a VTUSA annex and high-level platform at Los Angeles Union Station.


Yellow is the outline of a station building (Virgin Trains waiting lounge, ticketing areas, etc) and Orange is the outline of a high-level platform.
The track is Number 15, which has no platform currently and is used for 'storage.' VTUSA could build a different storage track outside of the station area to replace the utility this length of track.
The platform would go right on top of what is currently an access road. It does not look like a very busy road, so I have shown the platform as sloped to allow service vehicles to drive up onto the platform as necessary. I imagine that with the station building being right next to the platform there would always be an attendant of some kind present to direct traffic when a service vehicle needs to traverse the platform.
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  #1494  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2019, 5:18 AM
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IT’S OFFICIALLY UNDERWAY: VIRGIN TRAINS HOLDS GROUNDBREAKING CEREMONY FOR MIAMI-ORLANDO RAIL
June 24, 2019

Miami’s high speed rail link to Orlando is now officially under construction.
Virgin Trains USA (formerly Brightline) held a ceremony today to mark the milestone.

Investors have been “wowed” by the Virgin concept and purchased $1.75 billion in bonds during April, with an additional $950 million expected to price June 12, according to Bond Buyer.

The trip from Miami to Orlando will take 3 hours 15 minutes at speeds as high as 125 MPH, at an average ticket cost of $100. Service is expected to begin in 2022.

A connection to Tampa is also being planned.



https://www.thenextmiami.com/its-off...gh-speed-rail/
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  #1495  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2019, 4:05 AM
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https://www.thenextmiami.com/virgin-...uGg_YRzcWmFNKE

Virgin Trains announced 3 new Miami-area stations by end of year.

Let the speculation begin!
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  #1496  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2019, 10:35 PM
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https://www.thenextmiami.com/virgin-...uGg_YRzcWmFNKE

Virgin Trains announced 3 new Miami-area stations by end of year.

Let the speculation begin!
Ft Lauderdale airport ……..
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  #1497  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2019, 7:17 AM
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Ft Lauderdale airport ……..
Aventura and Port of Miami, as well.
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  #1498  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 6:41 PM
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Virgin Trains to be considering Hollywood & Boca Raton as possible new station locations.

https://www.thenextmiami.com/hollywo...1BLxjBMr4eYdBE
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  #1499  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2019, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
I don't have all the answers, all I know is when it comes to infrastructure and transport I'm not an incrementalist. I'm afraid that some of these conventional rail projects are not helping us get to where we want to be, they are delaying it or preventing it alltogether. I will ask two questions: Now that FEC is operating, does anyone think a true high speed rail network will actually come about in the next 30 years? I have my doubts, because people will say, look we already have a train, see. And as a hypothetical, could the Florida HSR program been revived under a Democratic gov, but now that Brightline seems to have replaced it's goals, would it have even been a conversation? I have my doubts. Go to 10,000 feet. What I see is one of the nations fastest growing states that could have easily justified building out a 160mph HSR map, is now supposed to pretend a conventional speed train operated by Virgin (oooo sexy) is supposed to revolutionize mobility in the state.
I don't get the doom and gloom, or why you're so anti-private sector. The fact is, the town centers clustered along the FEC corridor are the only places in Florida capable of sustaining walkable, urban development, which is key for sustaining ridership and moving the dial on urbanism in Florida. And rail service on the FEC corridor works best when it is run with the full involvement and support of FEC itself, not when it's handed down by Amtrak's government mandate.

I guess Florida could have built a grade separated HSR megaproject down the turnpike at 180 or 220mph, but those stations would have been ghastly park and ride nightmares. Sure, it's possible for developers to come in and build new town centers... but who thinks that's actually gonna happen in a way that isn't just urbanist window dressing?

Texas is now facing a private-sector proposal to build an HSR system... that line will place stations in sprawly areas with huge garages instead of connecting to actual urban neighborhoods. Even in Dallas where a connection to the Cedars neighborhood is easy, the developers are choosing to focus their efforts on people dricving to the garages. I'm pretty sure Florida's system would have been exactly the same.
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Old Posted Jul 11, 2019, 4:23 PM
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HSR stations and intercity rail stations have to attract ridership broadly. Even for commuter service. These stations are one step below airports in the manner that they will operate and the methods used to attract riders.

I had a discussion on my local board that our city's main rail station attracts most of its riders by taxi, rideshare, drop off and park n ride. When luggage is involved, the attractiveness of transit connections is reduced, however for commuters, that is also a possibility. Unless the station is not designed to attract riders from a broad area, these types of accesses are necessary. Walk on riders may be desirable, but that limits access to a circle of 1 km or less around the station. This may be very limiting to the number of potential riders who might want to access that station.
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