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  #15281  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2019, 7:58 PM
BrinChi BrinChi is offline
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Originally Posted by BonoboZill4 View Post
Because compare the two buildings side by side and it's night and day... the new building will look nice, clean, and inviting. The one that is there now is out of place, dirty, and the first floor is ugly as sin while also being half windowless wall. A full glass base that can be lit up will make people fine with walking by there too. That building is the last part of Michigan Avenue north of Congress that isn't pleasant.
And that's why developers get away with it. The current building is in such disrepair that most people, even design-conscious individuals like those on this forum, have a difficult time imagining a renovation that cleans, restores, and builds off of what is salvageable. But it's like throwing away an antique because it's all dusty from sitting in the attic.
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  #15282  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2019, 8:02 PM
dan ryan dan ryan is offline
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
I just think there needs to be a reasonable bar that must be exceeded to justify this type of facadectomy - both from the standpoint of public policy - and in terms of justified for a developer to weigh that option privately. This building is just not good enough to justify it. I don't think it's bad, but it would need to be better than not bad - or "old", or "pedestrian scaled".

It could be though that what needs to be done as part of the entitlement process is to incorporate a design review (I know, I know, Chicago doesn't do stuff like that......though who knows, maybe under the Lightfoot admin., the new DPD commissioner will push for instituting something) that would ensure a human-scaled design at street level (clearly this doesn't mean faux oldey-time Lagrange trash design, mind you).
Well said, Sam. What you're saying is really what I'm interested in. I'm not arguing for 4 story buildings throughout the loop. It just seems pretty clear to me that the ground level of 300 will not be inviting at all. At least with a facadectomy, you could beautify the ground level and make an inviting space.
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  #15283  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2019, 8:39 PM
PittsburghPA PittsburghPA is offline
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North crane of 845 W Madison is coming down.
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  #15284  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2019, 9:16 PM
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Buckman821 Buckman821 is offline
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This discussion regarding the preservation or facadectomy of the eye-sore currently standing at 300 N Michigan has to be one of the most head-scratch inducing dialogues I've ever read on this forum and I say that as an ardent preservationist.

What is so uninviting about the new design? The lobby basically looks like an apple store. I'll take it. Pick your battles...
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  #15285  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2019, 10:43 PM
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ardecila ardecila is offline
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
This building is residential as well. I believe roughly 300 apartment units.

The new (built within the last few years anyway) 200 North Michigan, similar scale and 1 block due south (perhaps only just marginally less attractive as a hotel location - perhaps) is all residential. This is clearly a prime mixed-use area. I think you are wrong in your assessment that hotels are a higher and better use than residential at the 300 N Michigan location. I assess them to be pretty equal at the top. This does go against the heard mentality/group-think posture of urban real estate in general, in which typically a single use comes to dominate a particular district - or if not quite dominate, then at least become the clear preferred usage in new developments/redevelopments. However, there are some areas that are just fundamentally roughly equally appealing among 2 or 3 uses. That's definitely the case for the Millennium Park to River strip.
Meh, IMO the calculus is a little different... a single-use hotel tower that maxed out the allowable zoning would be a big hotel indeed. Hotel operators at that scale probably want more amenities than they could conceivably squeeze onto this tight site, so Sterling Bay went with a mid-sized hotel and then residential to fill out the remainder of the building.

Also, remember that we're living in the age of Airbnb, so residential is often interchangeable for hotel.
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  #15286  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 3:26 AM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by dan ryan View Post
It's like what BrinChi said, the building now is pedestrian scale. How is an overwhelming pedestal more inviting or less cramped for the sidewalk?
I haven't read all the comments, so forgive me, but I don't think a 4 story building fronting a road with 6 lanes(if I am correct?) is good for pedestrians. Its simply too short for such a wide road. The only time I find areas around wide roads pleasant is if the buildings surrounding it help enclose the area for me as a pedestrian.
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  #15287  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 12:38 PM
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  #15288  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 4:46 PM
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BonoboZill4 BonoboZill4 is offline
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Originally Posted by BrinChi View Post
And that's why developers get away with it. The current building is in such disrepair that most people, even design-conscious individuals like those on this forum, have a difficult time imagining a renovation that cleans, restores, and builds off of what is salvageable. But it's like throwing away an antique because it's all dusty from sitting in the attic.
Can you explain why the building is historically relevant beyond it being old? This would be like defending the AMLI river north tower from demolition in 60 years because it's old, but even worse because the plot of land isn't being used efficiently. I know you are arguing also for facadectomy, but I find those to be in poor taste more times than not
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  #15289  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 5:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BonoboZill4 View Post
Can you explain why the building is historically relevant beyond it being old? This would be like defending the AMLI river north tower from demolition in 60 years because it's old, but even worse because the plot of land isn't being used efficiently. I know you are arguing also for facadectomy, but I find those to be in poor taste more times than not
Also not sure what a facadectomy would preserve other than a blank brick wall...
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  #15290  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 5:45 PM
BrinChi BrinChi is offline
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Originally Posted by BonoboZill4 View Post
Can you explain why the building is historically relevant beyond it being old? This would be like defending the AMLI river north tower from demolition in 60 years because it's old, but even worse because the plot of land isn't being used efficiently. I know you are arguing also for facadectomy, but I find those to be in poor taste more times than not
The building is historically relevant precisely because it is old. To construct a building using the same methods and materials would be prohibitively expensive today. It's the reason most people sigh and roll their eyes when they see a Lucien LaGrange proposal. I realize this seems a bit extreme and I'd like to reiterate that I actually like the modern replacement building for 300N Michigan. I'm challenging the notion that just because a building isn't significant enough to merit landmark status we should automatically be ok trashing it. Facadectomy design can be bad, but it can be done well and we should push developers to do it whenever possible imho.

What seems ugly today could be appreciated in 60 years. If our building methodologies and materials completely change in the coming decades, AMLI River north could turn out to be something worth saving.
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  #15291  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 5:51 PM
ChiPlanner ChiPlanner is offline
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Originally Posted by BrinChi View Post
The building is historically relevant precisely because it is old. To construct a building using the same methods and materials would be prohibitively expensive today. It's the reason most people sigh and roll their eyes when they see a Lucien LaGrange proposal. I realize this seems a bit extreme and I'd like to reiterate that I actually like the modern replacement building for 300N Michigan. I'm challenging the notion that just because a building isn't significant enough to merit landmark status we should automatically be ok trashing it. Facadectomy design can be bad, but it can be done well and we should push developers to do it whenever possible imho.

What seems ugly today could be appreciated in 60 years. If our building methodologies and materials completely change in the coming decades, AMLI River north could turn out to be something worth saving.
Pick and choose your battles with historic preservation. Save the interesting, unique, and contributing buildings.

From the Michigan/Wacker Historic District Nomination form from 1978:

Older structures of little or no significance
Commercial Building
300 North Michigan Avenue
Date and architect unknown
Height: under 5 stores
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  #15292  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 5:59 PM
Handro Handro is offline
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Originally Posted by BrinChi View Post
The building is historically relevant precisely because it is old. To construct a building using the same methods and materials would be prohibitively expensive today. It's the reason most people sigh and roll their eyes when they see a Lucien LaGrange proposal. I realize this seems a bit extreme and I'd like to reiterate that I actually like the modern replacement building for 300N Michigan. I'm challenging the notion that just because a building isn't significant enough to merit landmark status we should automatically be ok trashing it. Facadectomy design can be bad, but it can be done well and we should push developers to do it whenever possible imho.

What seems ugly today could be appreciated in 60 years. If our building methodologies and materials completely change in the coming decades, AMLI River north could turn out to be something worth saving.
So never tear anything down?
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  #15293  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 6:26 PM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by BrinChi View Post
AMLI River north could turn out to be something worth saving.


God help us.
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  #15294  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 6:29 PM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by ChiPlanner View Post
Pick and choose your battles with historic preservation. Save the interesting, unique, and contributing buildings.

From the Michigan/Wacker Historic District Nomination form from 1978:

Older structures of little or no significance
Commercial Building
300 North Michigan Avenue
Date and architect unknown
Height: under 5 stores

You and Buckman bring up an excellent point. There's a clear risk of being dismissed when there is a preservation effort that's really worth the battle, if preservationists press for too many old-but-not-truly-significant to be saved in whole or in part.
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  #15295  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 6:42 PM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Meh, IMO the calculus is a little different... a single-use hotel tower that maxed out the allowable zoning would be a big hotel indeed. Hotel operators at that scale probably want more amenities than they could conceivably squeeze onto this tight site, so Sterling Bay went with a mid-sized hotel and then residential to fill out the remainder of the building.

Also, remember that we're living in the age of Airbnb, so residential is often interchangeable for hotel.

I would not assume that the starting point for the tower was hotel (and then they decided to 'fill-out' the zoning with residential). Could have just as easily been the opposite. I just do not see the Central-East Loop (let's say from approx. Dearborn eastward as being any less prime for resi than for hotels. Whereas I think you do (I remember your comment on same re Georgetown site on State....which I hold as being absolutely as attractive for residential as it is for hotels). I think that it's a certain type of resident of course that would find the area highly desirable - those that put a real premium on convenience to a super wide array of neighborhood amenities, prize diversity and very importantly dense employment concentration - and who obviously don't mind very active street and pedestrian traffic, noise, etc. But....that's a large potential resident base (it's not me or many others, but that's okay). It's not for those seeking a neighborhood land usage that's more residential-dominated, or clearly the chic/trendy set......again, that's fine - but none of that defines the East Loop as being somehow fundamentally more prime for hotel use than residential.....again, I view them as being roughly on par with each other at the top.
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  #15296  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 6:46 PM
Rizzo Rizzo is offline
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
You and Buckman bring up an excellent point. There's a clear risk of being dismissed when there is a preservation effort that's really worth the battle, if preservationists press for too many old-but-not-truly-significant to be saved in whole or in part.
I’d take any opportunity to preach for preservation, but salvaging the Michigan Ave building wouldn’t be appropriate. Along the spectrum of qualifying structures, it’s pretty minimal. We’ve lost countless valuable 19th century industrial and residential buildings with intact details and accommodating floor plans that should have been saved or incorporated into new development. At the same time, there’s plenty of just “old” non-vernacular, mundane buildings that seem to avoid redevelopment. Had the city enforced its survey and ban any construction or alteration to contributing structures, buyers would simply move on to the other 99.5% of eligible properties for replacement in the city.
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  #15297  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2019, 7:10 PM
ChiPlanner ChiPlanner is offline
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Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
I’d take any opportunity to preach for preservation, but salvaging the Michigan Ave building wouldn’t be appropriate. Along the spectrum of qualifying structures, it’s pretty minimal. We’ve lost countless valuable 19th century industrial and residential buildings with intact details and accommodating floor plans that should have been saved or incorporated into new development. At the same time, there’s plenty of just “old” non-vernacular, mundane buildings that seem to avoid redevelopment. Had the city enforced its survey and ban any construction or alteration to contributing structures, buyers would simply move on to the other 99.5% of eligible properties for replacement in the city.
^This
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  #15298  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2019, 12:19 AM
rlw777 rlw777 is offline
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Originally Posted by BrinChi View Post
The building is historically relevant precisely because it is old. To construct a building using the same methods and materials would be prohibitively expensive today.
The building is brick and concrete!
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  #15299  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2019, 12:42 AM
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August 14, 2019





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  #15300  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2019, 12:52 AM
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August 14, 2019



Assembling the tower crane.
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