Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by combusean

If central city residents vote for the train and North Phoenix residents successfully cut it out, that's about the best reason I've ever seen to split Phoenix in half.

Density would skyrocket but we’d go from the 5th biggest city to like the 10th biggest

[Mr.RE]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Density would skyrocket but we’d go from the 5th biggest city to like the 10th biggest

I was thinking the same. If the light rail expansion ends, then I would imagine we would see higher density and more mixed use along more central parts of the light rail as opposed to spreading it around the city. I guess for those that like to see more development along the light rail in cities like Tempe, Downtown and Midtown phoenix would get just that if this creates a scarcity of transportation. (btw I am 100% in favor of the light rail)

[azsunsurfer]

I really think we need to end the light rail and if we must spend money on mass transit I would say it needs to be a mixture of BRT lines, street cars (in areas that are already dense or increasing density that the light rail can't service or offer that last mile ride) and commuter rail (doesn't make sense to drag the lightrail out to the suburbs if this is the type of transit those folks would take to begin with).

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

I really think we need to end the light rail and if we must spend money on mass transit I would say it needs to be a mixture of BRT lines, street cars (in areas that are already dense or increasing density that the light rail can't service or offer that last mile ride) and commuter rail (doesn't make sense to drag the lightrail out to the suburbs if this is the type of transit those folks would take to begin with).

If people aren’t into light rail how are you going to capture the imagination on a bus?

People already say “why not just spend more on busses” now you want to try to convince them to have an expensive bus when a normal bus will do?

[biggus diggus]

I travel a lot and almost never rent a car. I have spent considerable time in various really big cities and use public transport quite a bit. I hate getting on busses, even good ones. They're slow and they are subject to the ebb and flow of traffic. Unfortunately Phoenix built a rail system that's just an incremental upgrade from a bus so the difference here would probably be hard to see. In cities with subways and elevated rail a bus just feels like a crappy way to get around.

[azsunsurfer]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I travel a lot and almost never rent a car. I have spent considerable time in various really big cities and use public transport quite a bit. I hate getting on busses, even good ones. They're slow and they are subject to the ebb and flow of traffic. Unfortunately Phoenix built a rail system that's just an incremental upgrade from a bus so the difference here would probably be hard to see. In cities with subways and elevated rail a bus just feels like a crappy way to get around.

As a fellow experienced traveler....what reason would you have to take a light rail line from Phoenix to Peoria or PV Mall? What can you not access along the existing light rail line now? The only argument I am open for regards to an extension is to ASU West/ GCU/ Maybe Glendale...

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I travel a lot and almost never rent a car. I have spent considerable time in various really big cities and use public transport quite a bit. I hate getting on busses, even good ones. They're slow and they are subject to the ebb and flow of traffic. Unfortunately Phoenix built a rail system that's just an incremental upgrade from a bus so the difference here would probably be hard to see. In cities with subways and elevated rail a bus just feels like a crappy way to get around.

There will never be an investment in public transit until the stigmatizing logic of the anti-rail rhetoric is challenged and defeated. The logic is that *fill in the blank* is too expensive and not worth it for the dirty, dirty people. On other social media, the anti-rail folks talk about rats and homelessness, as if light rail created these things. Buses are offered as a cheaper alternative. In Albuquerque, the rapid transit buses were subject to the same bellyaching. Same with commuter rail. Nothing that costs anything but the bare minimum escapes this condescension. There is less complaint for Tempe's streetcar because Tempe has basically crushed this bad logic. Lowering our sights isn't the answer. In the larger scheme, light rail is a pittance, and should be a part of a comprehensive strategy. There should be light rail, commuter rail, buses, single-occupant cars, robust pedestrian options, and protected bicycle paths with bicycle infrastructure.

What gets unchallenged pretty much everywhere in America is the MASSIVE subsidy of highways and car culture. It's both killing us and bankrupting us, and nobody actually discusses the massive and comprehensive subsidies for this.

If Prop 105 passes, I really, really, REALLY hope we vote to cancel the infrastructure taxes, and start a discussion about what these roads cost. I would also love to see the businesses in South Phoenix who were played languish (I know the I've written down the names of the parties involved, and will take any opportunity to spread the news of just how terrible they are as establishments). It's absolutely criminal that the state supreme court allowed this to get on the ballot in the first place.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

As a fellow experienced traveler....what reason would you have to take a light rail line from Phoenix to Peoria or PV Mall? What can you not access along the existing light rail line now? The only argument I am open for regards to an extension is to ASU West/ GCU/ Maybe Glendale...

ASU West, ASU Poly (Gateway), and the Glendale sports complex were supposed to be the terminuses of the light rail. Glendale overspent on what increasingly looks like it will be abandoned sports arenas, and isn't willing to connect them to rail.

Beyond that, Peoria is opening up trails, and the Northwest Valley really needs to work on density. A light rail line would help the cities up there plan to where these corridors might be. I suspect that the political powers don't want to give up their power base by allowing more density. It's hard to get elected as right-wingers when the density increases.

I'm mystified why more in the Scottsdale/PV area don't want defined corridors. They can get more people to their amenities, and then send folks away after they have sold them overpriced goods, food, and drinks. It increases the volume of traffic without having to build the parking lots, or deal with the increased congestion and traffic accidents.

[azsunsurfer]

Originally Posted by DesertRay

ASU West, ASU Poly (Gateway), and the Glendale sports complex were supposed to be the terminuses of the light rail. Glendale overspent on what increasingly looks like it will be abandoned sports arenas, and isn't willing to connect them to rail.

Beyond that, Peoria is opening up trails, and the Northwest Valley really needs to work on density. A light rail line would help the cities up there plan to where these corridors might be. I suspect that the political powers don't want to give up their power base by allowing more density. It's hard to get elected as right-wingers when the density increases.

I'm mystified why more in the Scottsdale/PV area don't want defined corridors. They can get more people to their amenities, and then send folks away after they have sold them overpriced goods, food, and drinks. It increases the volume of traffic without having to build the parking lots, or deal with the increased congestion and traffic accidents.

You and I couldn't be further apart politically but your points are valid. We need an all of the above approach where it makes sense. I just say we really need to focus on the core and let the commuter rail/ bus lines focus on the outer suburbs. Yes I do agree too we need a better understanding of the road maintenance costs in this town! Why is it that so many of the roads are in disrepair and how can the City better plan for their maintenance.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

As a fellow experienced traveler....what reason would you have to take a light rail line from Phoenix to Peoria or PV Mall? What can you not access along the existing light rail line now? The only argument I am open for regards to an extension is to ASU West/ GCU/ Maybe Glendale...

I wouldn't have a reason. Light rail is not an effective mode of transportation for trips longer than a 5-8 miles in my opinion.

Here's what I learned after a full NBA season of riding public transportation in the past year:

The city bus, in some cases, is faster than the light rail. I got on the bus in front of my house for the first dozen or so games last season, I'd get off at Camelback and switch to the light rail because I assumed it would be quicker. Eventually I decided to just stay on the bus, I found that I arrived much quicker every time. I'm sure part of that is due to the transfer time but I also did notice a few times we were next to a train during the trip and that train would get to Jefferson and 1st Avenue long after my bus arrived.

That obviously is not proof that the bus is faster than rail, but it is a really clear sign that light rail is just not a significant enough upgrade over the bus to make me excited about using it. Light rail in Phoenix just feels like a luxury bus, it's the difference between a coach ticket and business class.

I'm a supporter of light rail and I am a user of light rail, but I think the expansion plans are overzealous. I don't think the lines should spur more than 5-8 miles from the city center. I understand that heavy rail (subways and elevated) is cost prohibitive but I sure do wish we had something better than light rail.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by azsunsurfer

You and I couldn't be further apart politically but your points are valid. We need an all of the above approach where it makes sense. I just say we really need to focus on the core and let the commuter rail/ bus lines focus on the outer suburbs. Yes I do agree too we need a better understanding of the road maintenance costs in this town! Why is it that so many of the roads are in disrepair and how can the City better plan for their maintenance.

I really appreciate your openness and willingness to talk about these issues. I'm all over the place with my personal political opinions (I run my personal life with most boring and conservative principles, and I tend to vote pretty centrist, while I really detest particular strains of either right-wing collectivism--"populism"--and central-ownership of the means of production--either communism or fascism. I err on the "bleeding heart" side with things that I participate in, even if I know that these schemes often don't work).

Anyhoo, roads cost a LOT for upkeep, and Arizona has been kiting this check for a long time. I wish that we could have a more technocratic discussion about what is possible. The incredible buildup around light rail is what makes that modality "work," IMHO. If we could talk about connecting city centers around commuter rail, that would likely help the Valley sell itself as an employment center. HQs could cluster around these centers, and cities could choose the circulators and corridors more thoughtfully. The permanence of rail is a difference maker because investors want to get rid of ambiguity. If you know that there will be a stop x feet away from your place, you might sink a larger chunk of change down that pays out over 20-30 years.

Unfortunately, elections make these long-term plans hard to implement.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I wouldn't have a reason. Light rail is not an effective mode of transportation for trips longer than a 5-8 miles in my opinion.

Here's what I learned after a full NBA season of riding public transportation in the past year:

The city bus, in some cases, is faster than the light rail. I got on the bus in front of my house for the first dozen or so games last season, I'd get off at Camelback and switch to the light rail because I assumed it would be quicker. Eventually I decided to just stay on the bus, I found that I arrived much quicker every time. I'm sure part of that is due to the transfer time but I also did notice a few times we were next to a train during the trip and that train would get to Jefferson and 1st Avenue long after my bus arrived.

That obviously is not proof that the bus is faster than rail, but it is a really clear sign that light rail is just not a significant enough upgrade over the bus to make me excited about using it. Light rail in Phoenix just feels like a luxury bus, it's the difference between a coach ticket and business class.

Both light rail and bus definitely suffer from the fact that any transfers inevitably seem to make them take too long if you have any other options. My main use of the light rail is from downtown Tempe to downtown Phoenix, where the places I need to go both happen to be immediately adjacent to stops. If I didn't have those perfect circumstances, I'm sure I would use it less often.

Speed-wise, light rail may just be a "business class bus," but I think that's a problem with all rail-transit, even subways/elevated trains, that's not unique to light rail. It's hard to get firm numbers on average speeds, stops included, but this article, for instance, cites a person's unofficial measurements of various heavy rail systems in large US metros. NYC's subway averages just 17.4 MPH, Chicago's El 22.9 MPH, etc. And even those average speeds are inflated by express routes in both metros--most lines run slower. Valley Metro has officially public facts that put the Light Rail's average speed at a similar 22 MPH, all stops included. A study I dug up shows local bus service averaging 15 mph. Whether the ~7 mph increase, among the other benefits of light rail, justifies light rail is of course going to be a matter of opinion. And by definition the average local bus speed is not going to be true of every route, and your bus trip to games downtown may well be faster than light rail.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I wouldn't have a reason. Light rail is not an effective mode of transportation for trips longer than a 5-8 miles in my opinion.

Here's what I learned after a full NBA season of riding public transportation in the past year:

The city bus, in some cases, is faster than the light rail. I got on the bus in front of my house for the first dozen or so games last season, I'd get off at Camelback and switch to the light rail because I assumed it would be quicker. Eventually I decided to just stay on the bus, I found that I arrived much quicker every time. I'm sure part of that is due to the transfer time but I also did notice a few times we were next to a train during the trip and that train would get to Jefferson and 1st Avenue long after my bus arrived.

That obviously is not proof that the bus is faster than rail, but it is a really clear sign that light rail is just not a significant enough upgrade over the bus to make me excited about using it. Light rail in Phoenix just feels like a luxury bus, it's the difference between a coach ticket and business class.

I'm a supporter of light rail and I am a user of light rail, but I think the expansion plans are overzealous. I don't think the lines should spur more than 5-8 miles from the city center. I understand that heavy rail (subways and elevated) is cost prohibitive but I sure do wish we had something better than light rail.

I'm sure the time spent transferring from bus to LRT slowed your trip down substantially. With bus, you have a lot more stops on the line, transfer points, hitting the traffic lights and stop signs, road construction, slow traffic, rush hour traffic, people racking their bikes to the front of the bus, operators assisting wheelchair passengers and what not. I recently took a bus to go pick up my new vehicle 2 weeks ago. It took me 2 buses and 45 minutes just to get from 19th Ave and Cactus to Cave Creek/Dunlap. This was a distance of only 3.5 miles. The bus was stopped for 6 minutes alone while the operator assisted a wheelchair bound passenger onto the bus and strapped down the wheelchair (it's law for the wheelchair to be strapped down on a bus).

If I choose to ride the bus to my job at the Financial Center (and I have), it takes well over an hour via bus. It only takes me 25 mins from the Dunlap/19th Ave station on rail (not counting the 7 minutes to drive to the station). If you were going to take the bus to a game, you would still have to deal with all the issues I mentioned above which LRT would not have to deal with. I would be curious about your LRT time if you drove to the Camelback park and ride versus a bus from the same park and ride location?

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Light rail is not an effective mode of transportation for trips longer than a 5-8 miles in my opinion.

I wanted to touch on this a little because I have a funny story to tell. I work with 2 co-workers that take the LRT from Downtown Mesa every day. It takes them roughly about 55 minutes to get to Central/Osborn from Main/Center in Mesa. When they drive, that time goes up to at least an hour and 30 minutes (not too mention the amount of gas they use when they drive). Now granted this is during rush hour and there are times when you probably would want to use a car if you plan on doing other things after work. But this is when LRT matters the most so you are not sitting in a parking lot trying to get to work in the morning or going home. Now any other time of day when traffic is lighter, car is faster (but you are still using a lot of gas for that distance).

Oh yeah, forgot the funny story. Last Wednesday, I was going to Mesa across the street from the LRT station at Dobson and Main. I was driving my car and made a silly quip to my co-worker "Let's see who gets there first". His train beat me there by 10 mins!

[biggus diggus]

I understand what you're saying. Take my comments with a grain of salt as I don't work a schedule so therefore I never think about "beating traffic" or any of that. I came into the office at 10am today, spent 90 minutes at lunch and I'm figuring out when I want to go home. For someone like me the light rail is just a different/fun way to get around when I have some time to waste or don't want to pay $50 in uber fees. Definitely for a rush hour commuter I can see things being different.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I came into the office at 10am today, spent 90 minutes at lunch and I'm figuring out when I want to go home.

Jeez I want to do what you do!

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

I wanted to touch on this a little because I have a funny story to tell. I work with 2 co-workers that take the LRT from Downtown Mesa every day. It takes them roughly about 55 minutes to get to Central/Osborn from Main/Center in Mesa. When they drive, that time goes up to at least an hour and 30 minutes (not too mention the amount of gas they use when they drive). Now granted this is during rush hour and there are times when you probably would want to use a car if you plan on doing other things after work. But this is when LRT matters the most so you are not sitting in a parking lot trying to get to work in the morning or going home. Now any other time of day when traffic is lighter, car is faster (but you are still using a lot of gas for that distance).

Oh yeah, forgot the funny story. Last Wednesday, I was going to Mesa across the street from the LRT station at Dobson and Main. I was driving my car and made a silly quip to my co-worker "Let's see who gets there first". His train beat me there by 10 mins!

An hour and a half from Downtown Mesa to Central and Osborn. Even during rush hour, that seems longer than it should take. Even during rush hour, it’s never really taken me more than an hour to get almost anywhere in this town.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by TJPHXskyscraperfan

An hour and a half from Downtown Mesa to Central and Osborn. Even during rush hour, that seems longer than it should take. Even during rush hour, it’s never really taken me more than an hour to get almost anywhere in this town.

I travel to Dobson and Main once per week. I-10 from Downtown to 60 is a parking lot during rush hour. I've made the mistake of going this route quite a few times and it takes me an hour just to get to the Dobson exit on 60 with no wrecks or construction. Twice, it took me 2 hours because of wrecks and I swore off taking I-10 ever again during rush hour after that. My preferred route now to get to Dobson and Main is to completely avoid the freeways and take 3rd Ave to Van Buren until it hits Rio Salado and then on over to Dobson. It takes about 45 minutes this way for me. That's about the fastest I can get there in rush hour. Been driving to Dobson and Main every Wednesday for 2 years now so I have the time down pretty good.

The only reason I don't take the LRT to Dobson and main is because I don't want to take 1 1/2 hours to get back home to the 19th Ave and Dunlap station 10:30 at night when the freeways are clear. So, I always drive to work on Wednesdays.

[DesertRay]

Weird that I had to get this at the Albuquerque newspaper:

Students mobilize amid campaigning over Phoenix rail vote
BY ANITA SNOW / ASSOCIATED PRESS

PHOENIX — Campaigning over the future of mass rail transit in Phoenix heated up Tuesday over next week’s special election asking voters whether to halt all expansion of the light rail system in the nation’s fifth largest city.

Several dozen college students and recent graduates gathered briefly in the afternoon along the line downtown, waving signs that called for a “no” vote on the light rail measure. “Extend our rail and extend our future,” one sign said.

“It’s so much easier to take the light rail than the bus,” said Trinity Miracle, 18, a student at Arizona State University who has depended on the train since high school.

Shelley Jackson, 23, who recently graduated from ASU, said the planned extension of the rail into her old south Phoenix neighborhood would create educational and job opportunities for young people. Still, she acknowledged that “a lot of people do worry about gentrification.”


Arizona election watchers say a large number of early mail-in ballots points to higher than expected voter turnout for the Aug. 27 balloting at the height of Phoenix summer, when many people leave town to escape triple-digit temperatures. Between 88% and 97% of all ballots cast at the last three citywide elections were cast by early ballot, the City Clerk’s office says.

The clerk received around 123,350 completed ballots by Monday, said spokesman Matthew Hamada. That’s about 22% of the 549,128 early ballots mailed to voters who requested them, and 16% of the city’s 764,653 registered voters.

“Turnout appears to be heading in the direction of around 25%,” Arizona elections data wonk Garrett Archer said Monday on his Twitter account, The AZ Data Guru . The former data analyst for Arizona’s secretary of state was a must-follow during last November’s mid-term elections. He now works for local network television affiliate ABC15 .

The turnout by Phoenix voters was 20.8% on Aug. 25, 2015, when they weighed in on Proposition 104, a plan approving a tax increase to pay for transportation projects over 35 years, including the light rail. The final vote was about 54.7% for the increase and 45.2% against it, according to the city clerk’s website.

Proposition 105 was placed on this month’s ballot after a signature-gathering drive by opponents of a planned 5.5-mile (8.85-kilometer) extension of the rail into south Phoenix. If passed, the measure would stop that and any other expansion.

Now stretching more than 26.3 miles (42.3 kilometers), construction of the Valley Metro light rail system began in March 2005 and it began service in December 2008. The agency says in 2016, the system served 15.6 million riders, with an average weekday ridership of about 48,000.

The rail is used during the week by high school and college students and working professionals, as well as disabled and elderly people who find bus travel difficult. Rail critics point out the system is also heavily used by homeless people.

A second measure, Proposition 106, aims to limit the city’s spending until its pension debt is significantly reduced.


But the rail measure is getting the most attention.

A group called Building a Better Phoenix organized the initiative effort. Its supporters include business owners along the planned south Phoenix extension route and City Council members Sal DiCiccio and Jim Waring.

“Fixing roads and sidewalks, expanding bus and dial-a-ride service and other public improvements that improve our quality of life should come first!” reads a Building A Better Phoenix mailer.

Phoenix Mayor Kate Gallego and the other council members oppose the measure, saying the rail system would lose millions of dollars in federal funds that cannot be used for other purposes, including a recently announced $100 million grant from the U.S. Department of Transportation.

The Greater Phoenix Chamber of Commerce, the Arizona Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, the United Phoenix Firefighters, the Arizona AFL-CIO, and the local AARP chapter oppose Proposition 105 as well.

Those groups also oppose Proposition 106, saying it could slash funding for libraries and other city services such as public swimming pools and community centers.

“Protect light rail, protect our community,” reads a mailer urging a “no” vote on both measures.

Along with voting by mail, city voters can cast ballots in person over three days. More information is on the clerk’s website .

___

[CrestedSaguaro]

Strange indeed. I'm sure local media will pick up on it now that's it's been posted here.