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  #141  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 3:33 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
That's fine, I don't thinking "banning" in this context is very worthwhile by adding another "rule". If the premise was more earthquake related than climate related , but it's not. Just seems like a rule for the sake of the rule.

And now the "dinosaurs" have to get more exemptions to presumably connect to already in place infrastructure to produce a minimal reduction in emissions over time.



Because Quebec is obviously weird and again geography. Surprised you are taking this more heavy handed government approach.
Well, maybe you haven't had the opportunity to discover it yet but I'm very libertarian on everything except when the environment is concerned. "The God-Given Right to Destroy the Planet" is a concept I strongly oppose. I'm all for maximum freedom, but only within that non-negotiable framework of environmental sustainability.

I shouldn't have the right to buy vast amounts of the Amazon rainforest and raze it for profit, even if I wished to.
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  #142  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 3:34 AM
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Municipal virtue signaling...

I don’t have any problem with encouraging and helping people to make changes that help the environment to heal itself but this sounds poorly thought out. I imagine it will come with all sorts of exemptions for new restaurants and if not it’s just something else that will hike the cost of living in California even higher.

Maybe Berkeley aspires to become the electric stovetop culinary capital of the west coast.
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  #143  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 4:08 AM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Its the purchasing of climate indulgences from the church of left wing activism.

Not because natural gas stoves are a serious issue and not because there are enough of them in Berkeley to matter, but because for the citizens of Berkeley it will be the most painful and in your face thing to do to prove "how much you care".

Sure you might be one of the wealthiest people in the world who's very life creates the equivalent greenhouse gasses of a small African nation...but hey, you now eat at trendy restaurants that cook with and burn your dinner party rice on electric stove tops!

So everyone knows you live in Berkeley, the city that "cares" the city that banned gas stoves. I wonder how many old bay area hippies even see how disgusting its all become. Or maybe they were all this self indulgent from the get go, and the whole hippy act was just a way to cope with their own self centered bullshit.

Who knows!
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  #144  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 4:23 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Not because natural gas stoves are a serious issue and not because there are enough of them in Berkeley to matter
That's a total fallacy ("doesn't matter" therefore let's not do anything) and it's been pointed out to you guys several times yet. In reality, a given measure can be both 1) a step in the right direction and 2) not single-handedly making a life or death difference at the scale of the planet, and in that case there's no reason not to go ahead with the improvement.

I can drive everywhere alone in a 4x4 V8 Chevy Suburban and it doesn't matter.

And everyone in the USA can do like me.

And then everyone in China and India can do like me.

Surely you can admit it's better for everyone if I try to be as green as possible in my transportation...? And ideally, others may follow suit.

The alternative - that no one ever needs to care about anything because nothing matters - is just ridiculous.
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  #145  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 5:05 AM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Not that odd, in fact. I'd even look at it the other way - it sends a positive signal while in practice you aren't really annoying anyone too much since (nearly) everyone was headed that way already. (But you're also protecting yourself against any developer deciding to act like a dinosaur, which you never know, could happen if allowed.)

As I said earlier (a few pages ago), Quebec could do this too, if it weren't for the fact that no one here would ever have such a weird and uneconomical idea as attempting to build natural gas distribution infrastructure in residential areas. In Berkeley that risk is probably higher (since electricity in California is pricier than here) so there's a nonzero chance that that ban might actually serve. So... why not.

Where did you get that we don't have natural gas lines in residential areas in Quebec? Energir, the old Gaz Metropolitain company has built a shitload of lines in Montreal for like, ever.
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  #146  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 5:25 AM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
That's a total fallacy ("doesn't matter" therefore let's not do anything) and it's been pointed out to you guys several times yet. In reality, a given measure can be both 1) a step in the right direction and 2) not single-handedly making a life or death difference at the scale of the planet, and in that case there's no reason not to go ahead with the improvement.

I can drive everywhere alone in a 4x4 V8 Chevy Suburban and it doesn't matter.

And everyone in the USA can do like me.

And then everyone in China and India can do like me.

Surely you can admit it's better for everyone if I try to be as green as possible in my transportation...? And ideally, others may follow suit.

The alternative - that no one ever needs to care about anything because nothing matters - is just ridiculous.
Yes, my old cynical heart just doesn't see what good little actions can make! dont worry friend! These small victories will surely be the beginnings of an avalanche that save the world!!!!!

At some point it stops being endearing and becomes exhausting, you are many year past that point.
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  #147  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2019, 4:23 PM
jg6544 jg6544 is offline
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It has always existed, we just didn't have the ability to do it well. Think about baking bread. We used to do that in wood fired ovens with no thermostat. A modern baker couldn't do that without years of practice.
If I were made of money and could afford a La Cornue range, I would buy one in a minute. The manufacturer advises using the large, iron "plate" feature for boiling and simmering. The user regulates the heat by moving the pan to or away from the center of the future. They claim that the outer edge will give a perfect simmer, something that's difficult to achieve on any but very high-end ranges. Also, you mentioned fuel. The 3-star restaurant in Vienne, France, La Pyramide, used a coal-fired range until after WWII.
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  #148  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Well, maybe you haven't had the opportunity to discover it yet but I'm very libertarian on everything except when the environment is concerned. "The God-Given Right to Destroy the Planet" is a concept I strongly oppose. I'm all for maximum freedom, but only within that non-negotiable framework of environmental sustainability.
I mean literally everything we do and purchase has an environmental impact so good luck with that very libertarian plus government supported environmentalism slant.

Quote:
I shouldn't have the right to buy vast amounts of the Amazon rainforest and raze it for profit, even if I wished to.
Agreed. Weird example but okay...
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  #149  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 7:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jg6544 View Post
If I were made of money and could afford a La Cornue range, I would buy one in a minute. The manufacturer advises using the large, iron "plate" feature for boiling and simmering. The user regulates the heat by moving the pan to or away from the center of the future. They claim that the outer edge will give a perfect simmer, something that's difficult to achieve on any but very high-end ranges. Also, you mentioned fuel. The 3-star restaurant in Vienne, France, La Pyramide, used a coal-fired range until after WWII.
That’s just French technique. You regulate temperature by moving the pan around the flame, rather than turning the flame up and down.

But Chef is right that electric stove tops are fucking useless in terms of responsiveness and temperature control. And perhaps there are high end induction ranges that can hold a precise and consistent level of power output, rather than cycling on and off, but the countertop model that I have (and have seen in many London restaurant kitchens) doesn’t replace gas either.

Plus you really need gas to anything that requires, you know, a flame, like proper wok cooking or flambéing.
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  #150  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 11:14 AM
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Inkdaub Inkdaub is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Dude, Natural gas is in literally thousands of products you use all the time. Even if you stopped all energy uses (which you wont as its one of the most cost effective ways to produce lots of electricity) it would still be vital to how your life functions.

Its one of the most important resources on earth:

This chart shows how deep a hole we've dug for ourselves. It's going to be up to us to climb out. Sucks to be us but we fucked it up so, if we want to survive, we have to fix it. Among the easier challenges we face is figuring out new/different ways to cook our food. That won't even be a blip on the radar of what's coming should any of us live to see it.
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  #151  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 4:14 PM
IMBY IMBY is offline
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Electric is not less energy efficient. Electric heat is nearly 100% efficient. It's just more expensive.
I had one of those old out-dated A/C units in my house and I replaced it with a duct free mini-split and 2 room A/C's and my summer electric bill is $200 less a month.

I'm terrified of gas being in my house. In Las Vegas I lived in an all-electric 433 unit townhouse complex and loved every minute of it.
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  #152  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by IMBY View Post
I had one of those old out-dated A/C units in my house and I replaced it with a duct free mini-split and 2 room A/C's and my summer electric bill is $200 less a month.

I'm terrified of gas being in my house. In Las Vegas I lived in an all-electric 433 unit townhouse complex and loved every minute of it.
Yeah, ductless mini-splits are great for a lot of applications. They're ubiquitous throughout Europe and Asia and South America and gaining more and more market share here. So much more efficient and effective at providing even cooling and heating. Get rid of those room A/C units and add another interior unit to ductless system!
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  #153  
Old Posted Sep 13, 2019, 11:01 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Berkeley is missing the true culprit in Global Warming!!!

It's not Gas Stoves, it's Grass Stoves.

1] One joint of marijuana carries 2 pounds of co2.
2] Indoor pot production consumes 1% of US electricity at a cost of $5 billion/year to grow pot.
3] That 1% is enough to power 2 million homes.
4] Smoking one single joint, is the equivalent of burning a 100 watt light bulb for 17 hours straight.


But hey, you are forbidden to heat your soup up on a gas stove!

-----

Toaster ovens should also be illegal in Berkeley, you're literally burning perfectly good bread and releasing carbon in the atmosphere for no reason.
Sporting events, marathons especially should be banned. Lots of co2 being released by athletes breathing too much oxygen.
Also fitness centers and gyms within the city limits.
Stop it with your right-wing culture war talking points! We like weed...so screw the Earth!
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  #154  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2019, 2:52 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by montréaliste View Post
Where did you get that we don't have natural gas lines in residential areas in Quebec? Energir, the old Gaz Metropolitain company has built a shitload of lines in Montreal for like, ever.
Sure but that's only in downtown and/or highrise areas, no?

I have at least three separate properties that are connected to Gaz Métro (nowadays Énergir) but they're all in commercial areas in downtown Sherbrooke. AFAIK, no residential neighborhood in this province (areas with individual homes) can do what's done in Berkeley, i.e. having gas water heaters and gas stoves and gas clothes dryers. In fact I have never seen such appliances in the province. I've seen NG furnaces (for hot water heating systems) and NG stoves in my buildings (for my restaurant tenants), but that's it.

Maybe in Montreal Island highrises they have gas appliances, but again, doubtful. I know a few people who live in urban areas (sis in Verdun, good friend on Park Ave just on the other side of Mt Royal, family friend in Westmount, etc.) and no one has anything but electric appliances.
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  #155  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2019, 7:54 AM
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You can have my gas stove when you pry it from my cold dead hands.
Haha

Yeah it’s much less enjoyable cooking on an electric stove imo. I have an electric stove currently and hate it.
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  #156  
Old Posted Oct 5, 2019, 10:42 PM
kgbnsf kgbnsf is offline
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My neighboring community is also planning on adopting similar regulations. Moving off of gas in earthquake prone areas probably isn't the worst thing. I just hope they offer a very long transition for existing structures to convert to electric. My duplex has gas heat, stoves, dryers and hot water heaters and an electric service (and wiring) ill equipped to handle any expansion.
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  #157  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2019, 6:48 PM
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Many places {like British Columbia} are developing natural gas on a huge scale trying to justify it as being a clean energey source to make themselves feel better which is complete bunk.

Berkely knows that there is absolutely, positively NOTHING clean about natural gas. It is a dirty fossil fuel. Full stop. Calling NG clean is like those that espouse "clean coal", there is no such thing. NG truly scares me because it allows governments and companies to proclaim that they are reducing emissions by using it creating a totally false narrative. Natural gas is very bad for the environment but governments {like BC} try to convinve their populations that it is an ideal "bridge" technology and hoping people will fall for it for they can get their hands on all that juicy revenue. This is a very dangerous road as it prolongs our economy's essential requirement of getting off all fossil fuels energy.

The good people of Berkely know that we have no time to waste in getting off ALL fossil fuels if we are to avert catastophy.
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  #158  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2019, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by kgbnsf View Post
My neighboring community is also planning on adopting similar regulations. Moving off of gas in earthquake prone areas probably isn't the worst thing. I just hope they offer a very long transition for existing structures to convert to electric. My duplex has gas heat, stoves, dryers and hot water heaters and an electric service (and wiring) ill equipped to handle any expansion.
Read the title of the thread.

NEW buildings
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  #159  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2019, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kgbnsf View Post
My neighboring community is also planning on adopting similar regulations. Moving off of gas in earthquake prone areas probably isn't the worst thing. I just hope they offer a very long transition for existing structures to convert to electric. My duplex has gas heat, stoves, dryers and hot water heaters and an electric service (and wiring) ill equipped to handle any expansion.
Are they even going to require anything of existing properties? Typically these things will require only for new or remodeled structures, with the thought that eventually they'll get them all...
I don't think they are doing it for earthquake reasons, additionally the prevalent new gas lines are flexible.
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  #160  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2019, 11:08 PM
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Many places {like British Columbia} are developing natural gas on a huge scale trying to justify it as being a clean energey source to make themselves feel better which is complete bunk.

Berkely knows that there is absolutely, positively NOTHING clean about natural gas. It is a dirty fossil fuel. Full stop. Calling NG clean is like those that espouse "clean coal", there is no such thing. NG truly scares me because it allows governments and companies to proclaim that they are reducing emissions by using it creating a totally false narrative. Natural gas is very bad for the environment but governments {like BC} try to convinve their populations that it is an ideal "bridge" technology and hoping people will fall for it for they can get their hands on all that juicy revenue. This is a very dangerous road as it prolongs our economy's essential requirement of getting off all fossil fuels energy.

The good people of Berkely know that we have no time to waste in getting off ALL fossil fuels if we are to avert catastophy.
A cleaner energy more accurately. From a short term pollution point of view, it emits no SOX, NOX, or other smog forming emissions and no particulate matter during the burning of natural gas.

I think we often (in the developed world) view air pollution in terms of climate change when a lot of the world and geographies still battle smog and particulate matter.
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