Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Djeffery]

What's being said around Saskatoon about the size of a potential downtown arena? Has there even been any suggestion about a suitable size for the tenants? In some of the Hamilton discussion, I get the idea that people there don't want the psychological blow of losing an NHL size arena, even though having one is costly and makes no sense. Kind of a civic pride sort of thing. Would 10,000 seats at a third of the price be acceptable to people in Saskatoon? (By the way, we have had Thomas Rhett a couple times in London at our 9,000 seater lol)

[Dalreg]

Funny how all the out of towners are Debbie downers for Saskatoon to go down the path of a new arena, where as the Saskatchewan forumers seem to be all pro for a new arena. Little old Saskatoon might shock you all and actually build a new arena in the downtown core in the 15,000 capacity range in the next decade. I know I am will tosee my tax dollars help push it forward.

[Chadillaccc]

Saskatoon seems to be doing virtually everything right in this stage of the development of their city, and I have no doubt that they will be able to pull off a downtown arena. Really looking forward to seeing the second stage of River Landing, especially now that the first stage is turning out better than anyone could have imagined a decade ago. Not that a new arena would go in or even near River Landing (though an arena could certainly fit on the Toys R Us site ), but developments such as this are what make downtown arenas feasible, especially in smaller markets.

[SaskScraper]

Indeed, lots of outside investment in downtown Saskatoon condo developments in the last couple of years with Urban Capital's




Riverlanding No 1http://www.urbancapital.ca/no1riverlanding-saskatoon

and Highpoint. http://www.urbancapital.ca/highpoint-saskatoon



Saskatoon has already decided to build a new indoor stadium downtown instead of reno old arena facility. Last year City of Saskatoon conducted a study contracted through a urban development company that determined the optimal site for a new arena would be downtown, based on the economic drivers that having a downtown arena would enable. Having Coliseum in restaurant/nightclub area in the heart of the city would entice more downtown business activity not only in the daytime but also more importantly at night since Saskatoon has evolved in the last decade a burgeoning night entertainment district.

The City will build a facility just as big (& possible expandable) if not bigger than what currently exists due to the fact that the current facility sells out concerts & sports frequently throughout the year.

Saskatoon after all has the highest sports spectators per capita out all CMAs in Canada. Last years Hardy Cup winners U of S Huskies football, Hilltops football 5 consecutive Canadian Junior titles, Rush lacrosse 3 Championship titles out of last 5 years, Sask Rattlers CEBL inaugural title last month etc etc etc.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...ence-1.5249045

originally posted by wave46
When they get the quotes for what a new rink will cost them, I suspect they'll find that SaskTel centre is quite adequate.

You must know very sparingly little about City of Saskatoon especially if you think the city doesn't know the dollar value of their cities facilities.

Just in the last few years alone the City has built a $125million Saskatoon Police headquarters, a $100 million rRemai Modern art gallery, and as of this year have just finished building a $300 million Jimmy Pattison Children's Hospital,

...not to mention a $billion worth of bridges this decade.





Just this last week Saskatoon announced they plan to build a new $150+ million Saskatoon Central Library in a few years time, to replace Francis Morrison Library downtown. Suspecting Saskatoon won't spend ~quarter $billion on a new Coliseum just shows how little you know about Saskatoon.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...port-1.5289107

[wave46]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Suspecting Saskatoon won't spend ~quarter $billion on a new Coliseum just shows how little you know about Saskatoon.

I make no claim to special inside knowledge of Saskatoon in particular.

I've lived in enough places that I've seen these debates happen before. Sometimes the pro-venue side wins. Sometimes it doesn't.

If Saskatoon feels that they need a new arena downtown, all the power to them. I have no skin in this game. I wish their citizens the best.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Suspecting Saskatoon won't spend ~quarter $billion on a new Coliseum just shows how little you know about Saskatoon.

I don't doubt they would build a 15,000+ seat arena, I think it's getting that for ~quarter billion that people doubt.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I don't doubt they would build a 15,000+ seat arena, I think it's getting that for ~quarter billion that people doubt.

My cynicism (maybe that's too harsh a word) mostly comes back to value for money.

It's all nice and great to have these things but where does that cost fall? If my town decides to go whole hog on every arts/sports/cultural venue, who pays for it? (answer: the taxpayers) Which is fine if everybody's aboard; far be it from me - the stick-in-the-mud - to ruin everything.

This is not a rag on Saskatoon, or anywhere in particular. It's just one of these things I've noticed and I'm somewhat of a skeptic on the value of these things.

Then again, Winnipeg proved me wrong. They could have a empty Eaton's storefront, but they ended up with the Jets back in a sensibly priced rink (What did the government kick in - 1/3, 1/2?). Shows me, I guess.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by wave46

Then again, Winnipeg proved me wrong. They could have a empty Eaton's storefront, but they ended up with the Jets back in a sensibly priced rink (What did the government kick in - 1/3, 1/2?). Shows me, I guess.

I don't know that's a comparable to Saskatoon though. Is someone ponying up a large chunk of their own money for the new Saskatoon arena like Winnipeg? I don't know, all I know of that situation is what I read on this page, I'm not from there. If the citizens there want to spend the money for a large arena, as the poster above suggests their willingness to, then great.

[thurmas]

If Saskatoon can build a new rink I would love to see a WHA 2.0 for the traditional hockey markets that have been screwed over by the NHL. Say Saskatoon, Hamilton if they build a new rink, Quebec City, Hartford, Milwaukee, Portland, Cleveland.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wave46

I make no claim to special inside knowledge of Saskatoon in particular.

I've lived in enough places that I've seen these debates happen before. Sometimes the pro-venue side wins. Sometimes it doesn't.

If Saskatoon feels that they need a new arena downtown, all the power to them. I have no skin in this game. I wish their citizens the best.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I guess at the end of the day all publicly funded arenas are feel-good exercises. But somehow it seems easier to rationalize when you have a major sports team as an actual or even prospective tenant... it somehow seems pointless to build a NHL sized arena when there's no chance of landing a NHL team, just so you can say you have a new NHL sized arena.

But hey, it's not my money, so it doesn't really matter to me. Saskatoon can go and build a spectacular 25,000 seat venue that beats everything in the world... I'd probably come out for the weekend to take in a Blades game if that happens.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Funny how all the out of towners are Debbie downers for Saskatoon to go down the path of a new arena, where as the Saskatchewan forumers seem to be all pro for a new arena. Little old Saskatoon might shock you all and actually build a new arena in the downtown core in the 15,000 capacity range in the next decade. I know I am will tosee my tax dollars help push it forward.

Not all out of towners. I say go for it as a 15K seat arena isn't really that big. Doesn't the current arena already have that capacity?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I guess at the end of the day all publicly funded arenas are feel-good exercises. But somehow it seems easier to rationalize when you have a major sports team as an actual or even prospective tenant... it somehow seems pointless to build a NHL sized arena when there's no chance of landing a NHL team, just so you can say you have a new NHL sized arena.

But hey, it's not my money, so it doesn't really matter to me. Saskatoon can go and build a spectacular 25,000 seat venue that beats everything in the world... I'd probably come out for the weekend to take in a Blades game if that happens.

Weirdly enough, I'm less opposed to government funding when there's no professional team involved. When there's a billionaire who stands to directly benefit from a government handout, I get the 'fleeced' feeling more intensely.

I had no problem with the community-owned Roughriders getting Mosaic Stadium. It was a once in a couple generation gift to the community itself. Whereas the original 'plan' by Calgary Sports and Entertainment left a bad taste in my mouth.

[The S'toon Goon]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I don't know that's a comparable to Saskatoon though. Is someone ponying up a large chunk of their own money for the new Saskatoon arena like Winnipeg? I don't know, all I know of that situation is what I read on this page, I'm not from there. If the citizens there want to spend the money for a large arena, as the poster above suggests their willingness to, then great.

Bruce Urban, who owns the lacrosse team, initially said he'd commit up to $20,000,000. Whether he actually would, or what he else he would gain from that investment remains to be seen. And, that's certainly not chump change but it's also a long way from what is needed.

If a new arena were to be built the expectation is the capacity will be similar. The city has gotten to used to the concerts and other special events that a 15,000 indoor venue brings. It'll have nothing to do with attracting a professional team as a tennant.

The issue is that the concerts and events the city crave are beginning to skip the city. (The only one I actually heard skip was a foo fighters show on their last Canadian tour). The building, though not as dire as the Saddledome, can't compete as is in the long-term.

Personally, I'm for a new arena. Had the arena been properly located in the first place there would likely be no debate and renos would happen. As it is now, the question becomes does the city, taxpayers or any major players want to double down or triple down or whatever is now on a lousy location or save that dough and opt to start over?

By all accounts the start over option has the momentum, but money will talk and the city has completed some big ticket items recently that didn't come without their fair share of debate. And the slate for big ticket items never seems to end so we'll see how high a priority this arena actually is.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I don't know that's a comparable to Saskatoon though. Is someone ponying up a large chunk of their own money for the new Saskatoon arena like Winnipeg? I don't know, all I know of that situation is what I read on this page, I'm not from there. If the citizens there want to spend the money for a large arena, as the poster above suggests their willingness to, then great.

The owner of the Rush said he would invest some of his own money in a new arena. He didn't say how much though.

Edit: S'toon Goon beat me to it.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by The S'toon Goon

Bruce Urban, who owns the lacrosse team, initially said he'd commit up to $20,000,000. Whether he actually would, or what he else he would gain from that investment remains to be seen. And, that's certainly not chump change but it's also a long way from what is needed.

If a new arena were to be built the expectation is the capacity will be similar. The city has gotten to used to the concerts and other special events that a 15,000 indoor venue brings. It'll have nothing to do with attracting a professional team as a tennant.

The issue is that the concerts and events the city crave are beginning to skip the city. (The only one I actually heard skip was a foo fighters show on their last Canadian tour). The building, though not as dire as the Saddledome, can't compete as is in the long-term.

Personally, I'm for a new arena. Had the arena been properly located in the first place there would likely be no debate and renos would happen. As it is now, the question becomes does the city, taxpayers or any major players want to double down or triple down or whatever is now on a lousy location or save that dough and opt to start over?

By all accounts the start over option has the momentum, but money will talk and the city has completed some big ticket items recently that didn't come without their fair share of debate. And the slate for big ticket items never seems to end so we'll see how high a priority this arena actually is.

I'm not sure if that many shows are skipping Saskatoon. SaskScraper keeps talking about all the big shows Saskatoon gets and how it is the biggest drawing arena on the Prairies next to Edmonton so it sounds like things are fine.

On a serious note, Edmonton is actually drawing fewer concerts and smaller crowds since they moved to their new arena so it's not as simple as saying the new arena will fix all the challenges that exist here on the Prairies nor does it consider the ever-changing concert landscape. Over the past few years, smaller cities in isolated areas, have seen fewer shows as acts would rather play multiple shows in larger cities for the larger payday and added bonus of fewer expenses. A new arena in Saskatoon may attract a marginal increase in the number of concerts yearly but it can't overcome the city's small size and isolation - 2 strikes against it by the concert industry. Same thing can apply to Winnipeg and to a lesser extent, Edmonton.

A new arena in Saskatoon doesn't necessarily have to seat 15,000 to attract the big concerts it currently does either. The vast majority of concert set-ups have a 180 degree format in which the seats beside and behind the stage are tarped off. Arenas like those in London, Grand Rapids and Sioux Falls seat approximately 10,000 - 11,000 for hockey - the arena consists of a full lower seating bowl but a partial upper deck that only extends two - thirds of the way around the arena. This results in non-balanced seating arrangement for which a minimal number of seats have to be tarped off for concerts. In the end, these arenas may seat the 10,000 minimum necessary to attract those large scale events.

Perhaps building to this format would keep the costs of a new arena in Saskatoon manageable level - the proposed $170 million or so - while maintaining the city's ability to attract large scale events. It sure hasn't hurt Grand Rapids, Sioux Falls and London as the 2018 Poll Star numbers attest - all ahead of Saskatoon in concert tickets sold.

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2018/...Venues_702.pdf

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

A new arena in Saskatoon doesn't necessarily have to seat 15,000 to attract the big concerts it currently does either. The vast majority of concert set-ups have a 180 degree format in which the seats beside and behind the stage are tarped off. Arenas like those in London, Grand Rapids and Sioux Falls seat approximately 10,000 - 11,000 for hockey - the arena consists of a full lower seating bowl but a partial upper deck that only extends two - thirds of the way around the arena. This results in non-balanced seating arrangement for which a minimal number of seats have to be tarped off for concerts. In the end, these arenas may seat the 10,000 minimum necessary to attract those large scale events.

Perhaps building to this format would keep the costs of a new arena in Saskatoon manageable level - the proposed $170 million or so - while maintaining the city's ability to attract large scale events. It sure hasn't hurt Grand Rapids, Sioux Falls and London as the 2018 Poll Star numbers attest - all ahead of Saskatoon in concert tickets sold.

https://www.pollstar.com/Chart/2018/...Venues_702.pdf

And London has consistently managed to do this with 4 NHL size arenas within a couple hours drive.

[SaskScraper]

^^ London, Ontario's Arena has managed to get high numbers reporting specifically to Pollstar.com showing that unequivocally it does enormously well in the World for the size of arena & market that it includes, better than any venue from Asia!
Bravo

I'm a little worried for the sustainability of MTS Centre in Winnipeg though 7,000 seat Abbotsford Centre in BC gets just as many ticket sales according to Pollstar, as the Winnipeg barn, which must mean MTS Centre needs to down size immediately so that it can get a better return on it's infrastructure investment.

... Otherwise concerts like Cher's Here We Go Again tour in May of this year will continue to skip Winnipeg but use SaskTel Centre as concert venue instead.

[thurmas]

Bell MTS Place is kinda stuck. It's a bland cookie cutter early 2000's arena. The jets have done a decent job with upgrades to it. However with it's location downtown and tight footprint it would be very expensive to expand and the jets don't need more seats maybe a few more suites and roomier concourses would be nice but the buzz the jets had a few years ago in town has definitely worn off and they will need to get creative if the team has down years to keep filling the place. Concert wise it serves its purpose and the upper deck can be curtained off to make it more intimate for a 8000 seat Brian Adams concert or whichever act is in town. A major turn off to the rink is the cost of parking and parking availability downtown compared to the WHL and new Winnipeg Ice team when they build a new 5000 seat arena on the southwest corner of the city with ample free parking. Winnipeggers are a thrifty bunch and paying $10 bucks for parking in the middle of January to see the Carolina Hurricanes is not that appealing.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Bell MTS Place is kinda stuck. It's a bland cookie cutter early 2000's arena. The jets have done a decent job with upgrades to it. However with it's location downtown and tight footprint it would be very expensive to expand and the jets don't need more seats maybe a few more suites and roomier concourses would be nice but the buzz the jets had a few years ago in town has definitely worn off and they will need to get creative if the team has down years to keep filling the place. Concert wise it serves its purpose and the upper deck can be curtained off to make it more intimate for a 8000 seat Brian Adams concert or whichever act is in town. A major turn off to the rink is the cost of parking and parking availability downtown compared to the WHL and new Winnipeg Ice team when they build a new 5000 seat arena on the southwest corner of the city with ample free parking. Winnipeggers are a thrifty bunch and paying $10 bucks for parking in the middle of January to see the Carolina Hurricanes is not that appealing.

I think most venues outside of the largest in the country and limiting their capacities in order to keep the place selling out. I don't foresee MTS Place needing any expansion - I'd imagine True North will happily just raise ticket prices when demand is high and the Jets are doing well and trim them when they do less well.

I don't think the NHL is too worried about the WHL stealing fans with free parking - I might be concerned that the current high cost of tickets for the Jets may put people off seeing them moreso than $10 for parking.

It's also interesting to note that arenas in the suburbs (at least in the NHL's case) do relatively poorly compared to arenas downtown. This might have something to do with the teams themselves, but I don't think there's been a suburban arena built since the late 1990s.

Edit: Gila River Arena opened in 2003.

[Brizzy82]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

^^ London, Ontario's Arena has managed to get high numbers reporting specifically to Pollstar.com showing that unequivocally it does enormously well in the World for the size of arena & market that it includes, better than any venue from Asia!
Bravo

I'm a little worried for the sustainability of MTS Centre in Winnipeg though 7,000 seat Abbotsford Centre in BC gets just as many ticket sales according to Pollstar, as the Winnipeg barn, which must mean MTS Centre needs to down size immediately so that it can get a better return on it's infrastructure investment.

... Otherwise concerts like Cher's Here We Go Again tour in May of this year will continue to skip Winnipeg but use SaskTel Centre as concert venue instead.

You do this every few months, I have no idea why. Cher’s Winnipeg concert was cancelled due to illness.

Saskatoon and Winnipeg largely get the same arena tours.

Winnipeg brings in a few huge acts like Jay Z, Beyoncé, Kanye, The Weeknd, etc that never play Saskatoon though. No one cares.