DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[The Dirt]

Exactly, wong. It's not that this development is bad, it's that we decided that slightly less mediocre is revolutionary. Let's look at it for what it is. It's asprawlt, greenfield subdivision that's marginally better than stuff built in the early 90s.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

The fudged numbers are the population density arguments. This place won't have 8K/sq mile. It's more in the 4K/sq mile range assuming that Lone Tree's average household size translates to the eastern portion. If there's a lot of apartment and condos on the east side, than the population density might just go down. It's comparable to a Stapleton, but it's not exactly groundbreaking in my mind, rather it's a density that all new suburban development should aim for.

Other local developments that are on par (asides from size) are Downtown Westminster, Stapleton, and the Gates District- which blows Ridgegate out of the water in terms of development density. That Rigegate has three light rail stations is great, but how much will these lines be used to get people to to and around Ridgegate? Given where Ridgeate is likely to draw workers from, that being Parker and Castle Rock, most of them will simply drive and park. The plus is they won't be chocking I-25 further north, but Lincoln and Ridgegate Parkway will become messes.

It's not that this is a horrible development, it's not. Rather it's a sad reflection that it took a development all the way out at I-25 and Lincoln to finally get it right while you have such superb suburban shitholes such as Park Meadows, Inverness, and the Tech Center that missed the mark and contributed to suburban sprawl in some of the worst possible ways.

Reasonable points. As you stated, DTC is problematic. With regard to the density issue, I would simply invite people to review the website and make calculations themselves. I do not use math skills much as a lawyer but I thought that vi explained my work earlier.

My interest in LT is that they are essentially building a Cherry Creek North downtown area around a transit station. If the actual Cherry Creek North were built around the Colorado Station for example, I think we would all be much happier. I'm glad that the Gates District, Santa Fe Yards, and 38th and Blake are all developing. However, as others have stated earlier, we should've accomplished much more and much better transit oriented development in the 25 years that we have had a passenger rail system

[HighRanch]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

all the way out at I-25 and Lincoln to finally get it right while you have such superb suburban shitholes such as Park Meadows, Inverness, and the Tech Center that missed the mark

Clearly see his slant here....not going to convince him of anything rational with this sentiment...just really not productive discourse.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Other local developments that are on par (asides from size) are Downtown Westminster, Stapleton, and the Gates District- which blows Ridgegate out of the water in terms of development density. That Rigegate has three light rail stations is great, but how much will these lines be used to get people to to and around Ridgegate? Given where Ridgeate is likely to draw workers from, that being Parker and Castle Rock, most of them will simply drive and park. The plus is they won't be chocking I-25 further north, but Lincoln and Ridgegate Parkway will become messes.

It's not that this is a horrible development, it's not. Rather it's a sad reflection that it took a development all the way out at I-25 and Lincoln to finally get it right while you have such superb suburban shitholes such as Park Meadows, Inverness, and the Tech Center that missed the mark and contributed to suburban sprawl in some of the worst possible ways.

I've critiqued DTC using a current lens. But it wasn't a lost opportunity. It was far and away the most successful office park development when it was built. It wasn't until about 2012 when downtown Denver finally blossomed that many cared or even noticed downtown.

The DTC was established in 1962 and grew up during the 1970's and 1980's. Do you recall what downtown Denver was like during those three decades? It was a hot mess except for the oil boom of the early 1980's.

It's fair to say that Park Meadows is likely the last traditional mall that will be built. That said who do you suppose generates more sales: Cherry Creek Mall or Park Meadows. Interestingly such malls are easy to redevelop; what's important is the value of the land and that site will always be prime. You can also do an adaptive reuse like Google who leased an old mall in L.A. and put 8,000 employees inside.

With respect to Lone Tree where did Charles Schwab decide to locate? It hasn't even been 6 months since Kiewit chose Lone Tree. Where did Sky Ridge Medical choose? Allstate? Nationwide? etc.

Businesses and people decide to live in the suburbs and Lone Tree for lots of good reasons. They couldn't give two chits about downtown Denver and it's silly to compare both using the same "urban obsessed" standards.

Those that want to bow to the density gods should love downtown Denver. Others who ask five other questions first and may never ask about specific density can then choose to live in high quality suburban locations if that's their preference. Live and Let Live.

[TakeFive]

Buzz Geller has another site under contract

Things are heating up on Santa Fe: https://businessden.com/2019/11/14/d...ject-on-block/

A developer building an apartment project in the 1200 block of Santa Fe Drive wants to do it again. Leon Cisneros submitted an early-stage development proposal to the city last week, proposing an eight-story project on the southwest corner lot at 1277 Santa Fe Drive in Lincoln Park.

The 0.46-acre site, which consists of a vacant single-story building surrounded by parking, is mere steps from Cisneros’ similarly sized project already under construction at 1225 Santa Fe Drive. Only a Volunteers of America facility separates the two sites.

The corner lot is owned by Paradise Land Co., led by Buzz Geller.

Buzz has wanted to build a parking garage but The Dirt said No Bueno!

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Buzz Geller has another site under contract

Things are heating up on Santa Fe: https://businessden.com/2019/11/14/d...ject-on-block/

Buzz has wanted to build a parking garage but The Dirt said No Bueno!

Hah! Buzz hasn't built shit- he doesn't have the experience or the ability to build a capital stack to do so.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I've critiqued DTC using a current lens. But it wasn't a lost opportunity. It was far and away the most successful office park development when it was built. It wasn't until about 2012 when downtown Denver finally blossomed that many cared or even noticed downtown.

The DTC was established in 1962 and grew up during the 1970's and 1980's. Do you recall what downtown Denver was like during those three decades? It was a hot mess except for the oil boom of the early 1980's.

Lovely historical recap. I remember downtown in the 1980's post oil boom and have a sense of nostalgia for it being a kid back then. Nothing like visiting Dad at the office, seeing Santa at the Tabor Center, and then getting dinner somewhere downtown. I wasn't aware of the negatives of the overbuild back then.
[quote]It's fair to say that Park Meadows is likely the last traditional mall that will be built. That said who do you suppose generates more sales: Cherry Creek Mall or Park Meadows. Interestingly such malls are easy to redevelop; what's important is the value of the land and that site will always be prime. You can also do an adaptive reuse like Google who leased an old mall in L.A. and put 8,000 employees inside.[quote]
It's Cherry Creek by a long shot. I believe sales tax revenue for Cherry Creek outpaces Park Meadows by a factor of two. Rich people spend more than poor people. Who knew?

With respect to Lone Tree where did Charles Schwab decide to locate? It hasn't even been 6 months since Kiewit chose Lone Tree. Where did Sky Ridge Medical choose? Allstate? Nationwide? etc.
Businesses and people decide to live in the suburbs and Lone Tree for lots of good reasons. They couldn't give two chits about downtown Denver and it's silly to compare both using the same "urban obsessed" standards.

Sure it does. Both markets are in direct competition for a ton of industries. Insurance service centers are going to go for cheaper locations because the rent premium and space layout doesn't make sense for a ton of low-skilled shitbags answering phones. Nor does it make sense if you want more of an office campus layout, but it would be foolish to think that Chcuck didn't check out downtown before selecting a campus layout where it would be easier to phase in their development. Kiewit probably looked at downtown as well, but when Jacobs mostly moved out after buying CH2M the civil engineering nexus in Colorado ended up firmly entrenched down south. Both markets have advantages and disadvantages depending on what preferences the demand side has, but any rational company will model this to find a preferred location (and then see how many concessions they can extort from the local municipality).

Those that want to bow to the density gods should love downtown Denver. Others who ask five other questions first and may never ask about specific density can then choose to live in high quality suburban locations if that's their preference. Live and Let Live.

I don't give two shits about where people live- it's there choice. But I can deride the development as wasteful suburban shit that's no longer the best way of doing things. Times change and, unfortunately, land use generally doesn't in the built environment thanks to our zoning rules. We move past the old way in different sectors. The 707 was a great platform in the 1960's, now it's shit and no one would think of developing an airliner in the same way. The M-16 was a brilliant service rifle that is now crap that is being gifted off to third world armies as it's no longer the best way of killing things. Levittown was a brilliant (if extremely racist) development model to take advantage of the gifts that our government gave the millions of veterans who secured America's dominance in the world after WW2, today it's a shit way of building housing and is still considered the de facto way of housing the populace. It's time is past, but we aren't tearing it down the building better things in it's place. Instead it hangs around like a festering wound that won't heal.

[rds70]

Speaking of infill, an additional 12 story apartment building is being planned near Alameda Station (Bannock and Alameda):

Concept Plan Submittal

12-story new apartment building in the D4 (Broadway Park) master plan area south of W Alameda and west of S Broadway in Denver. 291 apartment units (178,322 sf) with residential amenity spaces located on levels 1, 6 and 12. Parking is located on-site on levels 1 through 5, surrounded by apartment units on all street-facing building elevations. Retail / restaurant space (4,900 sf) is located on level 1 with on-site parking also located on level 1.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Both markets are in direct competition for a ton of industries. Insurance service centers are going to go for cheaper locations because the rent premium and space layout doesn't make sense for a ton of low-skilled shitbags answering phones.

Wow. First off Schwab isn't an insurance company. I don't work there but have several friends who do, none of them are low skilled or poorly paid. And even if someone is a low-skilled phone answerer, that doesn't make them a shitbag. Maybe let's don't dehumanize thousands of people we don't know personally.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Wow. First off Schwab isn't an insurance company. I don't work there but have several friends who do, none of them are low skilled or poorly paid. And even if someone is a low-skilled phone answerer, that doesn't make them a shitbag. Maybe let's don't dehumanize thousands of people we don't know personally.

I was referring to Allstate and Nationwide in Lone Tree. Not Chuck.

TakeFive brings out the best in me with his pedantic, long-winded diatribes coupled with the folksy, "ass shucks", every-man quips and I tend to dehumanize when I do so.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I don't give two shits about where people live- it's there choice. But I can deride the development as wasteful suburban shit that's no longer the best way of doing things. Times change and, unfortunately, land use generally doesn't in the built environment thanks to our zoning rules. We move past the old way in different sectors. The 707 was a great platform in the 1960's, now it's shit and no one would think of developing an airliner in the same way. The M-16 was a brilliant service rifle that is now crap that is being gifted off to third world armies as it's no longer the best way of killing things. Levittown was a brilliant (if extremely racist) development model to take advantage of the gifts that our government gave the millions of veterans who secured America's dominance in the world after WW2, today it's a shit way of building housing and is still considered the de facto way of housing the populace. It's time is past, but we aren't tearing it down the building better things in it's place. Instead it hangs around like a festering wound that won't heal.

Wonderful job of putting into your own words most of what I was trying to communicate. Things do tend to change (a lot) over time. What happened two decades ago may already be 'out of style' but that's life.

That's why Lone Tree is a nice example of an updated suburban approach to density as well as being a walk and bike friendly place. It sounds to me that Lone Tree will better utilize mixed use components than Stapleton did and yes, "urbanism" was well-known when that development began.

One of the issues is that lots of families still prefer single family homes. In fact that is what made Stapleton so popular and successful, no? Most people, (if they're over 30) can't wait to get home after work. It may be for the peace and security, it may be the desire to connect with family, go watch the kids play soccer etc. For neighborhoods that have nice open space and bike/ped trails that's even more desirable.

So far as land use goes there's more than one way to slice a pineapple although one usually starts by slicing off the top and bottom. But from there you have any number of choices.

I wouldn't consider open space to be inefficient and it's often incorporated as a part of drainage and flood control. If people still want single family homes then builders are going to build them. Jurisdictions are going to respond to what people want and since I still believe in free will that's how it should be. I don't think you'll find small homes on larger lots any longer though.

There's no shortage of land out there TBH and if employment clusters are dispersed it's not even inefficient. Even Aurora which is largely a bedroom community has good access to both downtown and the SE business corridor including light rail access to both areas. What's not to like? I know 'urbanists' forget how important the 'nuts and bolts' side of life is but all those (future) warehouses and light industrial developments out near DIA are just as important as cheeky downtown Denver is. Putting more residential development nearby is an efficient use of the land.

All that said everybody is entitled to hold to their own prejudices and dogma.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Wow. First off Schwab isn't an insurance company. I don't work there but have several friends who do, none of them are low skilled or poorly paid. And even if someone is a low-skilled phone answerer, that doesn't make them a shitbag. Maybe let's don't dehumanize thousands of people we don't know personally.

Have to agree. We should all learn to get along better but then look at today's leadership.

It takes all kinds of people to do many of the things we all take for granted.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Wonderful job of putting into your own words most of what I was trying to communicate. Things do tend to change (a lot) over time. What happened two decades ago may already be 'out of style' but that's life.

That's why Lone Tree is a nice example of an updated suburban approach to density as well as being a walk and bike friendly place. It sounds to me that Lone Tree will better utilize mixed use components than Stapleton did and yes, "urbanism" was well-known when that development began.

I think you spend so much time posting that you miss about 75% of what others are discussing- except when someone disparages a suburb and then you perk up. I didn’t see much discussion from you of how DTC is now a waste of space, asides from the “current lens” quip of yours. Rather it was a throaty defense of it being a “great thing at the time” given your self-appointed role of the defender of the Everyman aka the dudes who live in the ‘burbs. But we’re ultimately talking past each other....

Lone Tree is a great example of what a suburb could be, but it appears that it misses some opportunities for good design. Alleys are lacking and schools don’t appear to be walkable though that might be because no schools are planned for at the moment. The development around the city center station looks good (comparatively the one at SkyRidge is a total failure while Lincoln is a good one IMO) but it remains to be seen if it pans out. Remember that Brookfield has the exact same thing planned around Central Park Station and hasn’t gotten anyone to sign on to it. Industrial
space in Stapleton has been a boom given the location but the establishment of a new commercial node hasn’t panned out because the market hasn’t bought in. The intent for Ridgegate might be there, but is the demand?

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Originally Posted by rds70

Speaking of infill, an additional 12 story apartment building is being planned near Alameda Station (Bannock and Alameda):

Concept Plan Submittal

I can always rely on you to post new development activity. Thanks! 12 stories is pretty tall for the area but I'm down with it!

[rds70]

In other news:

The tower crane is going up at the Hyatt Centric Hotel site on 18th.

Construction trailers have arrived at the 10th and Acoma apartment site.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by rds70

In other news:

The tower crane is going up at the Hyatt Centric Hotel site on 18th.

Construction trailers have arrived at the 10th and Acoma apartment site.

So that’s where the crane components I saw heading through AS were going.

Thanks for the updates.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I didn’t see much discussion from you of how DTC is now a waste of space, asides from the “current lens” quip of yours.

It's entirely possible you missed this critique of the DTC. I've also talked extensively about the benefit of mixed-use (as well as being more bike/ped friendly) and even gave examples of how Tempe has done this as compared to the now, dated DTC area or traditional suburban office parks. But I can't blame them for decisions made 4 to 6 decades ago. Even today it's not unusual to see office-use clusters but in Tempe it will be a 5 minute streetcar ride to everything one could want.

The 1st thing that popped into my head when you mentioned alleys is all the problems that the Arcadia neighborhood (similar to Hilltop) is having with people dumping garbage in their alleys. It's generally bulky stuff that wouldn't fit inside a normal garbage can like couches etc. Alleys are typically 'walled off' from the residences anywhere in Phoenix so it's rather easy for pickup trucks to stop by and drop a load.

Originally Posted by rds70

In other news:

Construction trailers have arrived at the 10th and Acoma apartment site.

You wouldn't suppose Lennar is tricking us by storing those trailers there?

[SirLucasTheGreat]

10th and Acoma is happening? I thought that they hadn't started excavation yet.

[CONative]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I think you spend so much time posting that you miss about 75% of what others are discussing- except when someone disparages a suburb and then you perk up. I didn’t see much discussion from you of how DTC is now a waste of space, asides from the “current lens” quip of yours. Rather it was a throaty defense of it being a “great thing at the time” given your self-appointed role of the defender of the Everyman aka the dudes who live in the ‘burbs. But we’re ultimately talking past each other....

Lone Tree is a great example of what a suburb could be, but it appears that it misses some opportunities for good design. Alleys are lacking and schools don’t appear to be walkable though that might be because no schools are planned for at the moment. The development around the city center station looks good (comparatively the one at SkyRidge is a total failure while Lincoln is a good one IMO) but it remains to be seen if it pans out. Remember that Brookfield has the exact same thing planned around Central Park Station and hasn’t gotten anyone to sign on to it. Industrial
space in Stapleton has been a boom given the location but the establishment of a new commercial node hasn’t panned out because the market hasn’t bought in. The intent for Ridgegate might be there, but is the demand?

What? A Sprouts, bank, and a few other retail components are being built at Central Park station right now. One office/residential/mixed-use building is supposed to start in 2020.

[CONative]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Wonderful job of putting into your own words most of what I was trying to communicate. Things do tend to change (a lot) over time. What happened two decades ago may already be 'out of style' but that's life.

That's why Lone Tree is a nice example of an updated suburban approach to density as well as being a walk and bike friendly place. It sounds to me that Lone Tree will better utilize mixed use components than Stapleton did and yes, "urbanism" was well-known when that development began.

One of the issues is that lots of families still prefer single family homes. In fact that is what made Stapleton so popular and successful, no? Most people, (if they're over 30) can't wait to get home after work. It may be for the peace and security, it may be the desire to connect with family, go watch the kids play soccer etc. For neighborhoods that have nice open space and bike/ped trails that's even more desirable.

So far as land use goes there's more than one way to slice a pineapple although one usually starts by slicing off the top and bottom. But from there you have any number of choices.

I wouldn't consider open space to be inefficient and it's often incorporated as a part of drainage and flood control. If people still want single family homes then builders are going to build them. Jurisdictions are going to respond to what people want and since I still believe in free will that's how it should be. I don't think you'll find small homes on larger lots any longer though.

There's no shortage of land out there TBH and if employment clusters are dispersed it's not even inefficient. Even Aurora which is largely a bedroom community has good access to both downtown and the SE business corridor including light rail access to both areas. What's not to like? I know 'urbanists' forget how important the 'nuts and bolts' side of life is but all those (future) warehouses and light industrial developments out near DIA are just as important as cheeky downtown Denver is. Putting more residential development nearby is an efficient use of the land.

All that said everybody is entitled to hold to their own prejudices and dogma.

How is it that folks don't see the many mixed use components that Stapleton already DOES have? There are live/work units a block from me, several townhomes and small condo/apartment buildings all around me, a 3 story office building with ground floor retail/restaurants 2 blocks from me (and no, I am not near the 29th Ave Town Center or Northfield Center...which has even more of all of that), and I do live in a SF house. Why is it that folks expected more density from a very large 8 square mile development that is 7 miles from downtown? Fact is...Stapleton has a lot more walkable shops, amenities, retail than many think. A lot of SF home dwellers and multifamily folks can walk to shops within a 5-10 minute walk in Stapleton. Not all folks, but a slight majority can now, and more will as time passes. Fact also is...Stapleton has a lot more multi-family than most realize and is denser than most neighborhoods in the city of Denver....and that is now....before the large vacant parcels that are slated for multi-family/mixed use are finally developed and will bring more of that "urbanism". The developers and city of Denver never expected Stapleton to be fully developed for 30 years. Around 2030 is when it was expected to be fully developed with all the residential and commercial aspects....even when it had higher aspirations for more multi-family in certain spots. We are at less than 20 years and have a lot of large vacant parcels still slated for those things, but people expect it all to be there now and are judging it before completion. Many commercial businesses and investors are literally waiting until all the residents are in place before setting up shop. I feel like some people aren't seeing what is actually in Stapleton already, and focus on all the SF homes. They miss that small retail strip that is not on Quebec or Northfield or off the highway, but they do notice the SF homes. They miss the 3 story office building with retail as they see another street of SF houses or townhomes in the distance. They miss the many 3-5 story apartments and condos, or even the many condo buildings that are often mistaken for large houses. They miss the live-work units. When I point out all the retail and commercial spots in Stapleton (which I have on this forum before), the majority of density and mixed-use lovers are surprised. Weird.

The beginning stages of the the Central Park TOD has started with Sprouts, a bank, and a few other retail components being constructed now...and a mixed use apartment/retail building planned to start in late 2020.

I'm not saying Stapleton is some urban paradise. It's not... but it is also NOT some suburban development with a wall of fences along collector streets...with parking lot oriented retail strips that folks have to walk 30 minutes through a maze of curved streets and cul-de-sacs to get to. I also think Stapleton doesn't get the respect for what it does have while it still has NOT been finished over 8 square miles of land...and when folks focus on the SF homes and the power retail centers that are on the arterial edges of Stapleton. That's not what I'm referring to when I talk about the mixed-uses and decent density throughout, and are definitely still to come in more than a few areas of Stapleton.