Why Isn't Vancouver (CN) a Megacity?

[Fabricio JF]

French and English have more differences, but I thought here at least they share the same alphabet, with small differences in the addition or suppression of some signs.

I believe it's hard on either side to learn the other language, with many words that don't share the same root and many different phonetic sounds.

It would be a challenge for very young children to become literate in both languages, but this would be a further plus in terms of experience and cultural enhancement as French is also spoken by almost 321 million people around the world according to the OIF.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by lio45

Though, the languages are close enough to be mutually intelligible, which makes a huge difference (on the “two solitudes” aspect).

Catalan and Spanish are much closer than French and English, but they aren't mutually intelligible. The similarity index between Catalan and Spanish is roughly the same as between Catalan and French.

[MolsonExport]

Catalan and Spanish aren't mutually intelligible

“Je mange une pomme le matin” French
“Jo menjo una poma al matí” Catalan
"Yo me como una manzana por la mañana” Spanish

I find Catalan to be about 'mi-chemin' between French and Spanish.


Catalan, French, Spanish, English
Finestra, Fenêtre, Ventana, Window
Formatge, Fromage, Queso, Cheese
Voler, Vouloir, Querer, To Want
Blau, Bleu, Azul, Blue
Miratge, Mirage, Espejismo, Mirage

[Acajack]

As a native French speaker who also speaks very basic Spanish, I find I can understand quite a bit of Catalan.

As Molson says, it's got hints of both Spanish and French.

I do think it's probably closer to Spanish overall.

[Fabricio JF]

And of the quoted words, the only ones I see similarity between French and English are Blau/Blue and Miratge/Mirage.

Mirage has Latin and French origins and in this case it seems to have been adopted into English as well.

Blue, on the other hand, has a Germanic origin and was adapted to Old French and also to Old English.

+

Je mange une pomme le matin

I eat an apple in the morning

Quite different

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Fabricio JF

French and English have more differences, but I thought here at least they share the same alphabet, with small differences in the addition or suppression of some signs.

I believe it's hard on either side to learn the other language, with many words that don't share the same root and many different phonetic sounds.

It would be a challenge for very young children to become literate in both languages, but this would be a further plus in terms of experience and cultural enhancement as French is also spoken by almost 321 million people around the world according to the OIF.

French and English are only very slightly intuitive to unilingual speakers of either language who have little exposure to the other.

I find that when I get deep into the US or Australia, most people don't even have a clue about very basic French stuff like the fact that "eau" is an "o" sound in French, similar to how I know how to pronounce the J (jota) in Spanish.

French-Spanish-Italian I find more "intuitive" between each other, and if I hadn't been exposed to and learned English as a child, as a unilingual francophone starting out cold with no prior knowledge of another language I would probably would have fared better in Italy or Spain than I would have in Toronto.

One surprising thing I found after I learned some Spanish is how Portuguese isn't that intuitive at all even if you know Spanish.

[ChiSoxRox]

Linguistically, Catalan is in the Gallo-Romance branch (map below) with French and northern Italian dialects like Lombard, while Castilian Spanish is in Ibero-Romance with Portuguese. Although as Portuguese with Spanish demonstrates, grouping doesn't mean "ease of learning" but rather "similarity of core vocabulary and grammar."



Meanwhile English is a Germanic language with a veneer of French vocabulary from the Normans.

[Fabricio JF]

Originally Posted by Acajack

One surprising thing I found after I learned some Spanish is how Portuguese isn't that intuitive at all even if you know Spanish.

The opposite also applies. I really don't have difficulties reading and listening in Spanish, and not even writing and speaking it. That's why I don't consider it a language to learn because my focus is being able to communicate and I've managed to communicate well with them as it was just this month talking to a Hispanophone speaker in a hotel in Sao Paulo.

But I have immense difficulties with French, even with two years of learning and I would have to communicate with you more in gestures.

Of course, it doesn't compare to learning a new language now starting from scratch and that could be one that uses another alphabet for example.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Fabricio JF

French and English have more differences, but I thought here at least they share the same alphabet, with small differences in the addition or suppression of some signs.

I believe it's hard on either side to learn the other language, with many words that don't share the same root and many different phonetic sounds.

It would be a challenge for very young children to become literate in both languages, but this would be a further plus in terms of experience and cultural enhancement as French is also spoken by almost 321 million people around the world according to the OIF.

While the percentage of Torontonians who speak French fluently as a second language is very small - probably in the low single digit percents - yeah, I think it's safe to say that more Torontonians speak French as a second language than Madrillenos speak Catalan as a second language.

Catalan is not a founding, official language of the Spanish nation in the same way that French is in Canada. Even in Vancouver, which is nearly 3,000 miles west of Quebec and never had any French presence whatsoever - no settlers, no explorers, nothing - there's a French language theatre company, French books in the library, and select public schools offer K-12 French immersion (YMMV in terms of its effectiveness). There's also mandatory French class for the fourth through ninth grades, which is about as effective in its learning outcomes as Spanish class in Texas as made fun of on Beavis and Butthead, but the fact remains that it exists.

I'm not saying that English Canadians are anywhere close to being fluently bilingual in French. Far from it. But sixty years ago, the percent of people born in Toronto or Vancouver who could speak any French was almost exactly zero, and now it's slightly more than zero.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

While the percentage of Torontonians who speak French fluently as a second language is very small - probably in the low single digit percents - yeah, I think it's safe to say that more Torontonians speak French as a second language than Madrillenos speak Catalan as a second language.

Catalan is not a founding, official language of the Spanish nation in the same way that French is in Canada. Even in Vancouver, which is nearly 3,000 miles west of Quebec and never had any French presence whatsoever - no settlers, no explorers, nothing - there's a French language theatre company, French books in the library, and select public schools offer K-12 French immersion (YMMV in terms of its effectiveness).

I'm not saying that English Canadians are anywhere close to being fluently bilingual in French. Far from it. But sixty years ago, the percent of people born in Toronto or Vancouver who could speak any French was almost exactly zero, and now it's slightly more than zero.

Most definitely true. I would estimate that almost any people who speak Catalan in Madrid would be from Catalonia themselves or a Catalan-speaking family. Across Canada including in Toronto and Vancouver you do have hundreds of thousands of "Anglo-Canadians" and also Canadians of allophone origins who can speak French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Fabricio JF

The opposite also applies. I really don't have difficulties reading and listening in Spanish, and not even writing and speaking it. That's why I don't consider it a language to learn because my focus is being able to communicate and I've managed to communicate well with them as it was just this month talking to a Hispanophone speaker in a hotel in Sao Paulo.

But I have immense difficulties with French, even with two years of learning and I would have to communicate with you more in gestures.

Of course, it doesn't compare to learning a new language now starting from scratch and that could be one that uses another alphabet for example.

I'll add that while way more francophones (at least in Canada, though it might be true in France as well) learn and speak Spanish as opposed to Italian*, in my experience Italian is easier to figure out for a francophone than Spanish is.

*It's not even close. Most every high school in Quebec offers Spanish as an optional third language. It's not that easy to even find evening classes in Italian. Ironic too because historically our Italian origin population has been much larger than the Spanish-speaking one.)

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

While the percentage of Torontonians who speak French fluently as a second language is very small - probably in the low single digit percents - yeah, I think it's safe to say that more Torontonians speak French as a second language than Madrillenos speak Catalan as a second language.

Catalan is not a founding, official language of the Spanish nation in the same way that French is in Canada. Even in Vancouver, which is nearly 3,000 miles west of Quebec and never had any French presence whatsoever - no settlers, no explorers, nothing - there's a French language theatre company, French books in the library, and select public schools offer K-12 French immersion (YMMV in terms of its effectiveness). There's also mandatory French class for the fourth through ninth grades, which is about as effective in its learning outcomes as Spanish class in Texas as made fun of on Beavis and Butthead, but the fact remains that it exists.

I'm not saying that English Canadians are anywhere close to being fluently bilingual in French. Far from it. But sixty years ago, the percent of people born in Toronto or Vancouver who could speak any French was almost exactly zero, and now it's slightly more than zero.

You mean of people in Madrid whose first language is Castilian? Maybe. Catalan is a widely spoken regional language, but even in Barcelona more people speak Castilian than Catalan.

[niwell]

I suppose it depends on how one defines "interesting" but overall I'm not sure I'd necessarily call Montreal a more interesting city (though certainly not *less*). Montreal is a more polished place that I think has more to offer for the average tourist in terms of history and architecture but also in general accessibility. Too many tourists in Toronto don't leave the central portions I'd consider to be fairly banal, likely because it wouldn't occur to them - it's not as obvious.

In the 90s and even early 2000s I don't think this would be the case, but a lot has changed since then. When I first started visiting Montreal seemed huge, but I don't really get that feeling anymore. It also depends on the types of things you personally enjoy. Worth noting that Montreal has undoubtedly more to offer for francophones - anglophones are missing out on a lot.

Toronto's a very eclectic place that's always changing and similarly has a lot going on all the time, particularly in the summer months (Mtl's a better winter city). More stuff than I could ever hope to do unless I quit my job. My friends who work in the music industry could be out 7x a week just for shows related to their own projects if they wanted to (they don't). Food-wise I'd consider the scene to be broader than Montreal with quality on-par, though the latter is still better at Terroir Cuisine (nowhere near as much as sometimes claimed though - this has changed a lot). Small differences like Toronto's more of a "bar" city, where it's more common to be at a small place where you order from or sit at the bar - Montreal tends to be more sit-down.

Again, Toronto is more of a place where you have to seek things out or "be in the know" but honestly I kind of like that. Then again I've always tended to be a fan of that style - I haven't made it to Spain yet and while I obviously need to see Barcelona, Madrid seems equally interesting to me and I've heard some passionate defenses of it's offerings which seem appealing.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

You mean of people in Madrid whose first language is Castilian? Maybe.

I mean anyone in Madrid whose first language is not Catalan, and anyone in Toronto whose first language is not French.

My point is that French has much more presence and institutional support, even if it's small, in English Canada than Catalan has in Castillian Spain.

[Fabricio JF]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most definitely true. I would estimate that almost any people who speak Catalan in Madrid would be from Catalonia themselves or a Catalan-speaking family. Across Canada including in Toronto and Vancouver you do have hundreds of thousands of "Anglo-Canadians" and also Canadians of allophone origins who can speak French.

I believe this is due to the greater soft power that, let's face it, the French has.

In Toronto I saw so many bilingual signs and suggestive environment and heard so many audios speaking both languages...

In Switzerland French seems to be more restrictive for the French speaking part in relation to Italian and German and in Belgium also in relation to Dutch and German.

If they need to communicate with each other, 40% will use English, which is not even official in both countries.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'll add that while way more francophones (at least in Canada, though it might be true in France as well) learn and speak Spanish as opposed to Italian*, in my experience Italian is easier to figure out for a francophone than Spanish is.

*It's not even close. Most every high school in Quebec offers Spanish as an optional third language. It's not that easy to even find evening classes in Italian. Ironic too because historically our Italian origin population has been much larger than the Spanish-speaking one.)

The level of difficulty I have with Italian is a little lower than with French. For me only Romanian is almost impossible to understand and it is more difficult for me than French among Romance Ls. So I think it would be a great addition to finish what I started when I was still a teenager.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

My point is that French has much more presence and institutional support, even if it's small, in English Canada than Catalan has in Castillian Spain.

Huge number of anglo-Canadians that don't speak French and wouldn't consider themselves bilingual, but could probably fumble their way through a French menu and successfully order food. Or figure out road signage in French without issue. But not be able to carry on any semblance of conversation. It's an interesting situation and I've found myself surprised at how much I can glean from at least written French, and sometimes even well enunciated newscasts.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I mean anyone in Madrid whose first language is not Catalan, and anyone in Toronto whose first language is not French.

My point is that French has much more presence and institutional support, even if it's small, in English Canada than Catalan has in Castillian Spain.

Yeah, French is recognized nationally in Canada, while Catalan is only recognized as an official language in Catalonia.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by niwell

I suppose it depends on how one defines "interesting" but overall I'm not sure I'd necessarily call Montreal a more interesting city (though certainly not *less*). Montreal is a more polished place that I think has more to offer for the average tourist in terms of history and architecture but also in general accessibility. Too many tourists in Toronto don't leave the central portions I'd consider to be fairly banal, likely because it wouldn't occur to them - it's not as obvious.

In the 90s and even early 2000s I don't think this would be the case, but a lot has changed since then. When I first started visiting Montreal seemed huge, but I don't really get that feeling anymore. It also depends on the types of things you personally enjoy. Worth noting that Montreal has undoubtedly more to offer for francophones - anglophones are missing out on a lot.

Toronto's a very eclectic place that's always changing and similarly has a lot going on all the time, particularly in the summer months (Mtl's a better winter city). More stuff than I could ever hope to do unless I quit my job. My friends who work in the music industry could be out 7x a week just for shows related to their own projects if they wanted to (they don't). Food-wise I'd consider the scene to be broader than Montreal with quality on-par, though the latter is still better at Terroir Cuisine (nowhere near as much as sometimes claimed though - this has changed a lot). Small differences like Toronto's more of a "bar" city, where it's more common to be at a small place where you order from or sit at the bar - Montreal tends to be more sit-down.

Again, Toronto is more of a place where you have to seek things out or "be in the know" but honestly I kind of like that. Then again I've always tended to be a fan of that style - I haven't made it to Spain yet and while I obviously need to see Barcelona, Madrid seems equally interesting to me and I've heard some passionate defenses of it's offerings which seem appealing.

I agree with you, although when some people say "Montreal is more interesting than Toronto", they might mean that what Montreal represents is a very unique thing, rather than that Montreal has more stuff to do and see.

Being a naturally (as opposed to forced) bilingual city where one language/culture is an easygoing, new world runaway of French - which is such a continental European language - and the other language is an American vernacular of English, with all the American colloquialisms and cultural references* that come with it is really cool.



*Okay, most of them. There are deep, deep American cultural things that even Canadians can't wrap their mind around, like Bama Rush or how getting tickets to the BCS national championship game was the greatest day of someone's life.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I agree with you, although when some people say "Montreal is more interesting than Toronto", they might mean that what Montreal represents is a very unique thing, rather than that Montreal has more stuff to do and see.

This is a good point that I should have added - the *idea* of Montreal is indeed very interesting, though I'd think of it more as being unique in the North American context. The potential downside of that can be a failure to recognize that Montreal is still a real place where normal people live out their lives - I have run across people (mostly American, but not all) that treat it like more of an exoticism.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

I agree with you, although when some people say "Montreal is more interesting than Toronto", they might mean that what Montreal represents is a very unique thing, rather than that Montreal has more stuff to do and see.

Being a naturally (as opposed to forced) bilingual city where one language/culture is an easygoing, new world runaway of French - which is such a continental European language - and the other language is an American vernacular of English, with all the American colloquialisms and cultural references* that come with it is really cool.



*Okay, most of them. There are deep, deep American cultural things that even Canadians can't wrap their mind around, like Bama Rush or how getting tickets to the BCS national championship game was the greatest day of someone's life.

yes, this is what I meant (uniqueness). Montreal is the only metropolis in USA/Canada that is not Anglo-dominated.