General Update/Rumour thread

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I'm considering buying a small condo in a few years either here or in Montreal. I'm an urbanite, and I don't have a lot of stuff and I don't need a lot of space. A condo makes sense for someone like me who's trying to get established in life and is not ready to settle down yet.

[waterloowarrior]

An interesting tidbit from this article

Dealing with development pressure in Mechanicsville
by David Reevely, The Ottawa Citizen August 11, 2012

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Dealing...#ixzz23M0egua6

To the west, the federal government is deciding what to do with Tunney’s Pasture; Hobbs has a briefing due from federal public-works officials in the next few weeks. She doesn’t know what they’re going to tell her but rumour is the plans include condos on the west side of Parkdale and more office space inside the complex.

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by Nepean

But that raises the question: Who will buy the large suburban homes of the babyboomers?

I recently talked with some friends about how the definition of success was changing. Twenty or 30 years ago, success meant buying a large suburban home, with a double-garage and all the fixings. Today, success is starting to be defined by many people as having a modest home in an urban setting, where you can walk to all the shops that you need, with easy access to good transit and, ideally, bike lanes.

My wife and I, even though me have a baby daughter, have discussed moving downtown. (Our condo, which is relatively small for the suburbs, should be easier to sell than our bigger neighbours). The search for a modest downtown home made me wonder who will move into the suburbs, and what happens if all the downsizing babyboomers can't sell their homes. I don't think this will happen but it is an interesting thought experiment.

They will have to take less for their homes. This should help drive down house prices a bit. I know my parents are planning to move into a smaller home albeit not away from the suburbs. These big houses are just too much space when there aren't kids there.

[umbria27]

Originally Posted by Nepean

But that raises the question: Who will buy the large suburban homes of the babyboomers?

I recently talked with some friends about how the definition of success was changing. Twenty or 30 years ago, success meant buying a large suburban home, with a double-garage and all the fixings. Today, success is starting to be defined by many people as having a modest home in an urban setting, where you can walk to all the shops that you need, with easy access to good transit and, ideally, bike lanes.

My wife and I, even though me have a baby daughter, have discussed moving downtown. (Our condo, which is relatively small for the suburbs, should be easier to sell than our bigger neighbours). The search for a modest downtown home made me wonder who will move into the suburbs, and what happens if all the downsizing babyboomers can't sell their homes. I don't think this will happen but it is an interesting thought experiment.

Though I wish they were, I think the perspectives of your friends may not be typical. They seem typical because you hang out with like minded people, but it seems that lots of people are still buying into the suburban dream. I live most of my life east of Woodroofe and west of Saint Laurent, so I'm shocked when I drive out of the city and see how the suburbs have spread.

I worry that we're not building enough variety downtown. There are plenty of one bedroom condos, but as you are probably finding, those modest family homes are difficult to come by. A three bedroom apartment is even more rare.

For what it's worth, I would encourage you to move downtown with your children. As kids get older and they are involved in more and more activities, suburban parents end up spending all their time in a car. My kids have walked and biked to school, sports, social activities and now part-time jobs for ten years now. That's a lot of traffic I've avoided.

[Acajack]

I don't think the suburban lifestyle is going to "die out" any time soon, or that that housing market is going to suffer a serious decline. At least in Ottawa, most single family detached homes even in car-dependent places like Orleans, Kanata and Barrhaven are serviceable via reasonably decent transit (I am thinking of potentially skyrocketing gas prices here.) So a lot of people are still going to be in the market for these types of houses.

Walkability is a growing in perceived value but it is not important to everyone. And it depends what you have to trade off for it.

The logic for someone goes like this:
OK, I want a walkable neighbourhood ideally, but I also want a backyard for a pool for the kids... The burbs aren't necessarily walkable but on the other hand I can still take transit from work so that offsets the high price of gas... Plus I can have that backyard pool. And so on and so on.

If anything, we will probably end up with a more balanced housing market. For much of the post-WW2 era, inner city housing (especially the denser forms) didn't get much love from the middle class in particular.

As I said, we are simply moving to a more balanced situation, but I don't think the suburban singles will see a large-scale abandonment like some urban districts did, simply because they are still perceived as being very attractive by many, many people. Like it or not.

[McC]

very large suburban homes (with lots of bedrooms, bathrooms and parking) will also remain highly desirable for multi-generational families. Ottawa hasn't been a primary destination for first and second generation families from the parts (e.g., of South Asia and Latin America) where these are more common, but that could change, or the practice could become more widespread across demographics -- it's really just a short step from boomeranging back to Mom and Dad's temporarily or setting up a granny suite in the basement or attic.

[S-Man]

Funny you should mention that, McC, because I was about to add that the multi-generational thing is growing and is quite prominent in some parts of the suburbs, but especially south Barrhaven. There you will find a large number of new Asian families "living the dream" of single-detached new home ownership.

Many people I've come across have commented on it in one way or another. Chapman Mills and Barrhaven South (Half Moon Bay) is where the building is occurring and that's where you'll find many Asian families - kids and elderly included - buying into the neighbourhood.

[J.OT13]

Bit of a shake up for downtown office space.

WEP loses tenants and 150 Elgin secures another 37,500 sqft.

http://www.obj.ca/Opinion/2012-08-13...goes-on-sale/1

[McC]

Thanks for the link. That first paragraph suggests that we won't likely see any action on the Place de Ville III or Standard Life III sites any time soon... unless they switch models from office to rez like Broccolini is doing on Slater.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by McC

Thanks for the link. That first paragraph suggests that we won't likely see any action on the Place de Ville III or Standard Life III sites any time soon... unless they switch models from office to rez like Broccolini is doing on Slater.

That’s too bad. I was hoping Place de Ville's podium building redevelopment was going to occur before the completion of the rail tunnel since it included improved connections (and likely complete overhaul) of the complexe's underground concourse. Seems building it after the opening of the subway would create a lot of disturbance around the north entry point.

Here is a link to the application and design brief. Note the link between tower C and the new tower D. They will build new escalators to replace the narrow and dingy random entrances around phase II (see north west and north east corner of tower C as well as the centre west elevation of the Podium to witness the outdated old portals);.


http://app01.ottawa.ca/postingplans/...appId=__7TBR2F

http://webcast.ottawa.ca/plan/All_Im...12-09-0212.PDF

[McC]

yeah, I was expecting the Podium replacement to happen sooner, because I'd heard that Transport Canada had expressed interest in the entire new tower, but that was before the Deficit Reduction Action! Plan, so the need may no longer be as pressing. In fact, I had completely forgotten about it as a pending office tower when I was thinking of examples for my last post.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by McC

yeah, I was expecting the Podium replacement to happen sooner, because I'd heard that Transport Canada had expressed interest in the entire new tower, but that was before the Deficit Reduction Action! Plan, so the need may no longer be as pressing. In fact, I had completely forgotten about it as a pending office tower when I was thinking of examples for my last post.

Transport Canada wanted to move to the new tower? Wouldn't that be a huge cut in office space (tower C; 535,000, tower D; 350,000ish)?

[McC]

I don't think it would have been a move, more of a consolidation from other offices that TC also occupies (e.g., a good chunk of Tower B and space in several other smaller buildings on Slater, Cooper, etc.) and maybe also to make swing space because I think (at least some of) Tower C is due for a refit.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by McC

I don't think it would have been a move, more of a consolidation from other offices that TC also occupies (e.g., a good chunk of Tower B and space in several other smaller buildings on Slater, Cooper, etc.) and maybe also to make swing space because I think (at least some of) Tower C is due for a refit.

Now that makes way more sense. Although their rent might be higher, it would be way more efficient to have everyone on one sight as opposed to spread out around the city. And since the feds seem to have gravitated toward the consolidation of departments in one, or in the case of the DND, fewer office buildings in recent years (new EDC, DND to Nortel campus, CSIS on Ogilvy, possible Boarder Services building on St-Laurent), it might still be possible.

From a Brookfield perspective, the Podium is not very efficient considering the big empty theatre. And if they do need to refit tower C, this would work well.

And from a downtown point of view, maybe emptying ugly old office buildings, it might open up future opportunities.

We should also remember that l'Esplanade Laurier (840,000+ sqft) will close for renovations once Lorne 2.0 (650,000sqft) opens. That leaves about 190,000 in missing swing space. We have some random space spread out across downtown, but the biggest possibilities are already (or soon to be) spoken for, i.e. the Plaza (former EDC) will likely act as swing space for the Bank of Canada (although it would have been pretty easy for them to move into a new PdV building across the street) and 150 Elgin will likely fill up with private sector companies (close to 120,000 sqft already rented out).


For now, tower D might not be so far fetched. Like the Rideau Centre speculaion, maybe an annoucement will come later this year.

[McC]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

the Plaza (former EDC) will likely act as swing space for the Bank of Canada.

oh yeah? don't think I knew about that tidbit, thanks!

UPDATE: Ha, I guess I got distracted and didn't actually read to the bottom of the article, it was right there in the last paragraph!

[Ottawan]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Transport Canada wanted to move to the new tower? Wouldn't that be a huge cut in office space (tower C; 535,000, tower D; 350,000ish)?

This is not even a rumour, but personal speculation: I've long thought that a Transport Canada consolidation would work really well for the new tallest office tower complex proposed for the triangle above City Centre at Bayview. The developer seems set on building it as a package for a single (or very few) tenant(s), and Transport Canada seems logical.

My other thought is that it might be used to relocate current Tunney's Pasture tenants (either Health or Stats) while that complex is completely revamped.

Regarding the Place de Ville podium development, the OBJ article mentioned above notes that the Department of Justice is looking for 80,000 square feet. Their headquarters are located on that same block, so this would be an exceedingly convenient spot for them to expand. At nearly a third of the leasable space in the new tower, that might be enough for them to move to build the tower with the rest on spec.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Ottawan

This is not even a rumour, but personal speculation: I've long thought that a Transport Canada consolidation would work really well for the new tallest office tower complex proposed for the triangle above City Centre at Bayview. The developer seems set on building it as a package for a single (or very few) tenant(s), and Transport Canada seems logical.

My other thought is that it might be used to relocate current Tunney's Pasture tenants (either Health or Stats) while that complex is completely revamped.

Regarding the Place de Ville podium development, the OBJ article mentioned above notes that the Department of Justice is looking for 80,000 square feet. Their headquarters are located on that same block, so this would be an exceedingly convenient spot for them to expand. At nearly a third of the leasable space in the new tower, that might be enough for them to move to build the tower with the rest on spec.

Personally, I would prefer seeing Tunney's offices move to Bayview as opposed to Transport Canada. A lot of these Tunney's buildings are complete tear me downs, so the Bayview towers would be a permanent solution.

As for PdV tower D; I totally agree it would work great as swing space for the Department of Justice, and Transport Canada while fixing up tower C (and since the tower would eventually be fully leased by TC, they wouldn't have to move back to PdV C, saving cash and trouble). And once all the other buildings are fixed up, then Transport Canada could consolidate their offices in PdV C and D. And by that time, there might be enough demand to tear down the older buildings occupied by TC on Slater, Cooper and wherever else.

[MaxHeadroom]

After years of neglect, the derelict remains of a gas station at the northwest corner of Bank and Rideau has a construction fence around it and a MacEwen sign saying it's under construction.

[Davis137]

I like MacEwen and W.O. Stinson and Sons. They are both independant petroleum companies, and were both established in Eastern Ontario (MacEwen is based out of Maxville, and Stinson and Sons is Ottawa/Kemptville). I find they have cheaper fuel than the big guys, and try to support them when I can. As well as Drummonds, who is also cheaper than the conglomerates more often than not.

[J.OT13]

Oh, that Rideau; I had to think about it for a sec. I don't think I've ever been down there.

And McEwen does seem to have slightly cheaper prices than the big boys, and so I gas up at their stations 90% of the time. I also like that they have the option of ethanol (although likely damn close to the concentration in regular gas).