Lansdowne Park Redevelopment Phase 1 | Completed

[phil235]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

It seems that at one time, even former Mayor and Court Jester, Larry O'Brien thought Bayview was the best location for a stadium.



Bruce Firestone offered some interesting insights into why the (insert name here) Centre was located in Kanata, many of which apply to why Lansdowne is a bad location for a redeveloped stadium:
* "the maximum number of people that OC [Transpo] can run up and down Bank Street would be about 2,500 pph (people per hour). For an arena with a 20,000 capacity, it would take four hours to exit everyone from the building using buses";
* "I can tell you that if we relied on buses, we would have had one sellout – opening night. After that, there would have been a fan revolt. In fact, people coming from Orleans by car could have taken more time to get to Lansdowne Park than to get to SBP, considering the traffic issues around the site."
* "I knew we needed a site we could own, that would have enough room for 7,000 cars and 500-plus buses ";

OSMUG promises they will lure thousands out of their cars, and either onto buses or arriving on foot or by bike. But as Firestone observed, fans in Orleans are not going to be very keen on leaving their cars at home. Instead, the surrounding neighbourhoods will become permanent overflow parking for the gross under-provision of onsite parking for games, the mall and the condos.

You ask where all these different amenities can be found next to a potential development site. Well, what I was describing was Bayview Yards.
The Transitway and LRT are on their southern boundary, the northern terminus of the O-Train is there, the Western Parkway is just to the north of the site(s), and there are two bridges to Quebec (I counted) -- the Chaudiere and Portage -- that are within 2km of the Yards, and the Champlain Bridge is a little more than a 3km straight shot along the Western Parkway.



As for cajoling the NCC, the City has seemed determined in its plans for the LRT and Lansdowne that they could get the NCC on board. Why were they so fraidy about getting them onside at Bayview/Lebreton?

Are we really still debating the Bayview yards option? Does anyone else here want to move past 2007?

Why didn't the City go that route? Well, for one thing, the City had completed a community design plan for that area that did not include a stadium. For another, the local community was strongly opposed (or does citizen opposition only count if its in the Glebe?) For another, the highway connections from Bayview are arguably worse than those at Lansdowne. And for a fourth thing, the City ALREADY OWNED a stadium and arena at Lansdowne.

Might it have been better if we were starting from scratch? Maybe. But under the existing circumstances, Bayview is nothing more than a NIMBY anthem by those who wanted the stadium anywhere else.

As for the Kanata location of Scotiabank, Firestone's reasons are a combination of nonsense and outdated thinking. As one of the people who put SBP in Kanata, Firestone has every reason to justify the decision he made. In reality, the one and only reason that Scotiabank is in Kanata is the land play. Firestone and his gang didn't have the money to buy an NHL team. They were entirely dependent on the development of the surrounding lands. When that didn't pan out, we all saw the financial issues that resulted.

To pick one of his claims, the idea that it takes 4 hours to clear 20,000 people from Lansdowne fits in the nonsense category. The facts completely contradict his assertion. In the past, Lansdowne was regularly cleared of 25,000 people in less time that it takes the parking lots at SBP to clear of cars. And once they are cleared, they don't have an average of 25 km to drive on the highway.

Cities essentially stopped building suburban arenas stadiums in the 1990s. SBP was at the tail end of a misguided trend.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

OSMUG promises they will lure thousands out of their cars, and either onto buses or arriving on foot or by bike. But as Firestone observed, fans in Orleans are not going to be very keen on leaving their cars at home. Instead, the surrounding neighbourhoods will become permanent overflow parking for the gross under-provision of onsite parking for games, the mall and the condos.

You ask where all these different amenities can be found next to a potential development site. Well, what I was describing was Bayview Yards.
The Transitway and LRT are on their southern boundary, the northern terminus of the O-Train is there, the Western Parkway is just to the north of the site(s), and there are two bridges to Quebec (I counted) -- the Chaudiere and Portage -- that are within 2km of the Yards, and the Champlain Bridge is a little more than a 3km straight shot along the Western Parkway.

I think there is more to the idea of having a centrally located stadium at Lansdowne Park then primarily the number of cars and humans per hour our infrastructure can move them away. Obviously moving crowds is important in where to locate a stadium and we want to mitigate any of the negative impacts large crowds might have on the residents of the Glebe, but there are many benefits to having a stadium at Lansdowne that Bayview (at least currently) or Kanata cannot provide.

I loved going to events at Lansdowne (both when I lived in the Glebe and when I lived in other parts of the city) because of the atmosphere of being in a denser neighborhood with bars, restaurants, and people walking around. It was crowded and I loved (and still love) that. There was vibrancy and life. Whenever I went to events, I tended to linger in the Glebe stopping for food after games, generally slowing down and enjoying the city a bit more then just jumping in a car or bus to escape as fast as possible from the stadium (which is what happens currently at Scotiabank Place for example). That to me is a horrible experience as a human being. Sure there is a highway adjacent to the stadium and lots of parking but it is a horrible place for humans to enjoy (at least for me and that keeps me from going to events in Kanata). Though one thing to keep in mind is that Carleton University is less then 2km away which at least for me amounts to roughly a 20min walk. There is a huge amount of parking there which might help deal with some of the perceived parking issues. They have run shuttles from there in the past for big events at Lansdowne.

It is too bad the pedestrian bridge in the winning scheme for the urban park was cut (I know there is another bridge being proposed closer to fifth but still, it would have been cool to walk across a bridge right into the park). To me that was a vital piece of infrastructure that would have offered yet another option for people to get to events at Lansdowne from neighborhoods east of the canal. It would have been a nice experience. Money for this bridge is something I would have loved to see the city get from the developers in any deal. Anyways, I am excited that I will be able to go enjoy events at Lansdowne again and I hope this project leads to a vibrant and people filled Bank street day and night!

(there are a lot of thoughts in there so sorry if it is a bit incoherent)

[lrt's friend]

I don't see the point of discussing other locations for a stadium when the new stadium is currently under construction. These other locations were never seriously considered because the people with the money were not interested and it would not have solved the Lansdowne problem. We now have a plan to clean up Lansdowne. It would never satisfy everybody. It is time to move on.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't see the point of discussing other locations for a stadium when the new stadium is currently under construction. These other locations were never seriously considered because the people with the money were not interested and it would not have solved the Lansdowne problem. We now have a plan to clean up Lansdowne. It would never satisfy everybody. It is time to move on.

This is a forum for discussion. You don't have to participate in this particular discussion if you find it pointless.

[Acajack]

I don't see why traffic and transit around Lansdowne are that big an issue, at least in relation to sporting events. The Rough Riders had average attendance of 20-25,000 for 40, 50 or 60 years in the exact same location. The Renegades averaged close to 25,000 per game as recently as 2002-03. The 67's have been there for three or four decades as well.

You had Super Ex there for decades which had way more people per day coming through the area for a week or more.

OK, I guess some Glebeites may have enjoyed the respite of not having CFL crowds at Frank Clair in recent years (and lately no Super Ex), but honestly it's a bit of short-sighted view limited in time.

This area has always drawn crowds for major events, and has for a century.

And while it has been busy, the traffic and transportation armageddon has never materialized and the crowds anticipated for the RedBlacks and other stuff aren't bigger than what has always been accommodated.

[alecz_dad]

Phil,

You put your finger right on it! The reason why the (insert name here) Stadium is in Kanata is because of the land play.
That's the same reason that OSMUG came forward with their convoluted stadium/mall/condo scheme for Lansdowne: because they and a whole line of other developers before them have coveted the site for decades.

OSMUG learned from the experience of all their failures. So, they:
* promised the glorious return of football (for how long, I wonder?);
* they concocted a scheme where the land technically remained public, paying $1 a year lease, while de facto privatizing it;
* they shackled the repair of the Civic Centre with a convoluted financial arrangement that required the building of a private mall and private condos on public land;
* they brushed away concerns about how 300,000 sq/ft of retail, 280 condo units and a 20,000 seat stadium are all going to co-exist with only 1500 parking spots, with magical thinking that people will just decide to bus, walk and bike in greater numbers than has ever been the case before.

As for driving distances, it's not far off what you suggest for SBP.
Lansdowne to:
Kanata = 22 km
Orleans = 15 km
Riverside South = 15 km
Barrhaven = 18 km
Promenades de l'outaouais (Gatineau) = 13 km

While folks in Orleans will have a demonstrably shorter trip, in km terms, than from Kanata, for people returning to most other destinations, the trip is not much shorter, and it will likely take longer and be more frustrating, because they will have to crawl up Bank Street, before getting up to speed on to the Queensway.

As for the Community Design Plan, you're not seriously suggesting that would prove any real impediment, are you? The City of Ottawa has shown itself repeatedly willing to accept spot rezonings all over the place that do not conform to CDPs. Just ask folks in Hintonburg, or Carling-Preston.

Many communities are wondering what the point is in wasting years engaging in the farce of developing CDPs for their communities, when the City is so willing to toss them aside.

Indeed, the overbuilding we see at Lansdowne would never have been permitted under the Official Plan at that site if it had been new construction. Among other things, the transportation links are too poor and the amount of onsite parking insufficient to service all that is being crammed on quite a small site.
By inextricably tying up the new mall and condo construction with the fixing up the old stadium, OSMUG and the City were able to sidestep the intent of the OP in this regard, which is to ensure that NEW development -- and let's not kid ourselves, that's what this is -- conforms to the urban development objectives agreed upon in the OP.

Originally Posted by phil235

Are we really still debating the Bayview yards option? Does anyone else here want to move past 2007?

Why didn't the City go that route? Well, for one thing, the City had completed a community design plan for that area that did not include a stadium. For another, the local community was strongly opposed (or does citizen opposition only count if its in the Glebe?) For another, the highway connections from Bayview are arguably worse than those at Lansdowne. And for a fourth thing, the City ALREADY OWNED a stadium and arena at Lansdowne.

Might it have been better if we were starting from scratch? Maybe. But under the existing circumstances, Bayview is nothing more than a NIMBY anthem by those who wanted the stadium anywhere else.

As for the Kanata location of Scotiabank, Firestone's reasons are a combination of nonsense and outdated thinking. As one of the people who put SBP in Kanata, Firestone has every reason to justify the decision he made. In reality, the one and only reason that Scotiabank is in Kanata is the land play. Firestone and his gang didn't have the money to buy an NHL team. They were entirely dependent on the development of the surrounding lands. When that didn't pan out, we all saw the financial issues that resulted.

To pick one of his claims, the idea that it takes 4 hours to clear 20,000 people from Lansdowne fits in the nonsense category. The facts completely contradict his assertion. In the past, Lansdowne was regularly cleared of 25,000 people in less time that it takes the parking lots at SBP to clear of cars. And once they are cleared, they don't have an average of 25 km to drive on the highway.

Cities essentially stopped building suburban arenas stadiums in the 1990s. SBP was at the tail end of a misguided trend.

[alecz_dad]

Acajack,

The difference now is that there will be an increased baseload of traffic resulting from the 300,000 sq/ft mall, 10-screen mega-plex, 280 condos and new office building.

Add that to the fact that the number of parking spaces onsite will be fewer than before, despite having much greater demand due to the additional uses at the site.

Then multiply by the fact that whereas before one could expect periods of respite from the greatest intensity of traffic focused on the area -- the Ex was only 10 days, so take your holidays then; there were only a few football home games, and perhaps 3x as many 67s games; home shows, garden shows, and whatever, tended to be only a couple of days at a stretch -- now, there will be a constant influx of traffic, and likely over-demand for parking, resulting from the new retail and residential, 365 days a year, even before the larger events.

Also, consider that for most of Lansdowne's existence, Ottawa was far less expansive than it is today. Those golden memories everyone keeps invoking of legging it over to Lansdowne are unlikely to be the reality for most football attendees, who will be coming in from the suburban fringes.

That's what's different.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't see why traffic and transit around Lansdowne are that big an issue, at least in relation to sporting events. The Rough Riders had average attendance of 20-25,000 for 40, 50 or 60 years in the exact same location. The Renegades averaged close to 25,000 per game as recently as 2002-03. The 67's have been there for three or four decades as well.

You had Super Ex there for decades which had way more people per day coming through the area for a week or more.

OK, I guess some Glebeites may have enjoyed the respite of not having CFL crowds at Frank Clair in recent years (and lately no Super Ex), but honestly it's a bit of short-sighted view limited in time.

This area has always drawn crowds for major events, and has for a century.

And while it has been busy, the traffic and transportation armageddon has never materialized and the crowds anticipated for the RedBlacks and other stuff aren't bigger than what has always been accommodated.

[alecz_dad]

Hear, hear bartlebooth! Hear, hear!

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

This is a forum for discussion. You don't have to participate in this particular discussion if you find it pointless.

[alecz_dad]

The only reason the people with the money (and I would contest the notion that the OSMUG boys are them, as most of the upfront costs are being borne by all of us taxpayers) had such a hardon for Lansdowne, is because they wanted to develop it for their private business objectives.

I must confess, that the first question in all of this should have been: "If all of these billionaires and millionaires were so keen on this project, why didn't they bring more of their own money to the table?"
Oh yeah, that's right, you don't get to be an "-ionaire" by using your own money. Instead you contrive backroom deals to get taxpayers to pay to subsidize your private business ventures.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't see the point of discussing other locations for a stadium when the new stadium is currently under construction. These other locations were never seriously considered because the people with the money were not interested and it would not have solved the Lansdowne problem. We now have a plan to clean up Lansdowne. It would never satisfy everybody. It is time to move on.

[JackBauer24]

So you're big supporting reference for a pro-Bayview location is ex-mayor O'Brien? I think I even have to say anything to combat that point - having the name O'Brien attached to it is enough.

And second, regarding getting the NCC on board, there is a big difference between building a transit system that essentially will take up as much space as a road versus building a huge stadium with additional parking lots.

And third, regarding the 4 other potential locations, when I was asking 'where' I was asking for reasonable and logical locations, locations where visitors can easily access and that would be able to accommodate additional parking lots. None of the areas you suggested would be able to do that. In fact, there are very few locations in the city that could - Lansdowne, JetForm Park (former Lynx Stadium) or some where out in the 'burbs.

There is no magic spot where it'll make everyone happy. as I posted early, put the stadium in Orleans, Kanata folk will be upset and vice versa. So, why not take a page out of any other major North American city's playbook (except Phoenix) and put the stadium in the middle of our city where you have visitors coming from all directions.

I understand that change (especially change that is against your wishes) is hard to accept, but what I don't understand is why individuals like you, who live in the Glebe and who lived there when Lansdowne was functional, are putting up such a fuss about this. You act their building another stadium where a orphanage once existed. It was a stadium, it's going to be one again. I think it's time you take Step 6 - and accept the fact that this project is moving forward despite your displeasure.

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

It seems that at one time, even former Mayor and Court Jester, Larry O'Brien thought Bayview was the best location for a stadium.



Bruce Firestone offered some interesting insights into why the (insert name here) Centre was located in Kanata, many of which apply to why Lansdowne is a bad location for a redeveloped stadium:
* "the maximum number of people that OC [Transpo] can run up and down Bank Street would be about 2,500 pph (people per hour). For an arena with a 20,000 capacity, it would take four hours to exit everyone from the building using buses";
* "I can tell you that if we relied on buses, we would have had one sellout – opening night. After that, there would have been a fan revolt. In fact, people coming from Orleans by car could have taken more time to get to Lansdowne Park than to get to SBP, considering the traffic issues around the site."
* "I knew we needed a site we could own, that would have enough room for 7,000 cars and 500-plus buses ";

OSMUG promises they will lure thousands out of their cars, and either onto buses or arriving on foot or by bike. But as Firestone observed, fans in Orleans are not going to be very keen on leaving their cars at home. Instead, the surrounding neighbourhoods will become permanent overflow parking for the gross under-provision of onsite parking for games, the mall and the condos.

You ask where all these different amenities can be found next to a potential development site. Well, what I was describing was Bayview Yards.
The Transitway and LRT are on their southern boundary, the northern terminus of the O-Train is there, the Western Parkway is just to the north of the site(s), and there are two bridges to Quebec (I counted) -- the Chaudiere and Portage -- that are within 2km of the Yards, and the Champlain Bridge is a little more than a 3km straight shot along the Western Parkway.



As for cajoling the NCC, the City has seemed determined in its plans for the LRT and Lansdowne that they could get the NCC on board. Why were they so fraidy about getting them onside at Bayview/Lebreton?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

Acajack,

The difference now is that there will be an increased baseload of traffic resulting from the 300,000 sq/ft mall, 10-screen mega-plex, 280 condos and new office building.

Add that to the fact that the number of parking spaces onsite will be fewer than before, despite having much greater demand due to the additional uses at the site.

Then multiply by the fact that whereas before one could expect periods of respite from the greatest intensity of traffic focused on the area -- the Ex was only 10 days, so take your holidays then; there were only a few football home games, and perhaps 3x as many 67s games; home shows, garden shows, and whatever, tended to be only a couple of days at a stretch -- now, there will be a constant influx of traffic, and likely over-demand for parking, resulting from the new retail and residential, 365 days a year, even before the larger events.

Also, consider that for most of Lansdowne's existence, Ottawa was far less expansive than it is today. Those golden memories everyone keeps invoking of legging it over to Lansdowne are unlikely to be the reality for most football attendees, who will be coming in from the suburban fringes.

That's what's different.

I am not at all convinced that this will spell armageddon for the Glebe. There were only 2,200 spots in the old Lansdowne lot, so only a fraction of Rough Riders crowds parked there anyway. I was a season ticket holder for 15 years and never once parked in the Lansdowne lot - spots just weren't available and there was a huge waiting list. 90+% of CFL fans will either use transit or park in neighbourhood streets - just like they did before.

And Ottawa was already a sprawling city by the 70s and 80s. If anything the core has densified since then and you have more transit users and car-free city slickers than ever before.

I suspect that on football game days or during other big events, most driving clients for the businesses at Lansdowne will likely stay away. That's part of the risk of setting up shop there, or at least they think they'll do some business with event patrons as a trade-off.

[alecz_dad]

I agree that (insert name here) Arena is a horrible place. Unfortunately, the Lansdowne scheme as it seems to be unfolding, seems to just be bringing suburban horribleness downtown, and likely helping to snuff out much of what makes the Glebe a nice place for you to visit.

As for Carleton, although they are building a new parking structure,

ironically, this may actually reduce the availability of gameday parking because a significant area of what has been free surface parking, will now be dedicated to pay parking, thus making it less desirable for event attendees who will already also be required to walk those 20 mins or take a shuttle bus.

The City and OSMUG could have easily kept a pedestrian bridge in the design, if they had shifted it to the parking budget, as that is what it was clearly intended for, to provide access to the site for people parking in the presumed overflow parking on residential streets east of the Canal.
As it is, the plan for a bridge at Fifth and Clegg, which has been a long-term objective of residents of the Ottawa East community, to improve access to amenities in the Glebe, struggles ahead, like any other non-car, community-desired infrastructure project.

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

I think there is more to the idea of having a centrally located stadium at Lansdowne Park then primarily the number of cars and humans per hour our infrastructure can move them away. Obviously moving crowds is important in where to locate a stadium and we want to mitigate any of the negative impacts large crowds might have on the residents of the Glebe, but there are many benefits to having a stadium at Lansdowne that Bayview (at least currently) or Kanata cannot provide.

I loved going to events at Lansdowne (both when I lived in the Glebe and when I lived in other parts of the city) because of the atmosphere of being in a denser neighborhood with bars, restaurants, and people walking around. It was crowded and I loved (and still love) that. There was vibrancy and life. Whenever I went to events, I tended to linger in the Glebe stopping for food after games, generally slowing down and enjoying the city a bit more then just jumping in a car or bus to escape as fast as possible from the stadium (which is what happens currently at Scotiabank Place for example). That to me is a horrible experience as a human being. Sure there is a highway adjacent to the stadium and lots of parking but it is a horrible place for humans to enjoy (at least for me and that keeps me from going to events in Kanata). Though one thing to keep in mind is that Carleton University is less then 2km away which at least for me amounts to roughly a 20min walk. There is a huge amount of parking there which might help deal with some of the perceived parking issues. They have run shuttles from there in the past for big events at Lansdowne.

It is too bad the pedestrian bridge in the winning scheme for the urban park was cut (I know there is another bridge being proposed closer to fifth but still, it would have been cool to walk across a bridge right into the park). To me that was a vital piece of infrastructure that would have offered yet another option for people to get to events at Lansdowne from neighborhoods east of the canal. It would have been a nice experience. Money for this bridge is something I would have loved to see the city get from the developers in any deal. Anyways, I am excited that I will be able to go enjoy events at Lansdowne again and I hope this project leads to a vibrant and people filled Bank street day and night!

(there are a lot of thoughts in there so sorry if it is a bit incoherent)

[citizen j]

I'm glad we're able to use this forum as a safe space to talk about our feelings. Meanwhile, does anyone have any photos or actual construction updates?

[alecz_dad]

Indeed, but I really do not understand how a pedestrian- and transit-oriented development will work in a city that is now so significantly suburban and rural.

Although there has been some intensification in recent years within the central area, it is pretty clear that the majority of residents still live in the suburbs. The 2006 Census population count for pre-amalgamation Ottawa was 328,105, whereas it was estimated that a total of 1,148,800 people lived in the greater Ottawa (Ottawa-Gatineau) area.

While I do not think a suburban location is desirable. It is sheer folly for a major event and retail node not to be located adjacent to mass transit and/or major arterial roadways.

I'll be curious to see how much the movie theatre, and retail stores not oriented towards game-day attendees (no fun hefting that 20-lb bag of Whole Foods organic lentils back to your car at Carleton) will enjoy having to give up most of a day's sales because their normal clientele can't get anywhere near them. I also wonder how long the love affair with football will last for the affluent Boomers who will be buying a lot of the condos, once they realize that most weekends will involve them dodging piss and puke left by drunken sports fans.

BTW, don't expect to park on the street either, as local residents are organizing to get the parking rules changed to 1-hour only. So better save up to pay for your parking tickets along with your game tickets.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not at all convinced that this will spell armageddon for the Glebe. There were only 2,200 spots in the old Lansdowne lot, so only a fraction of Rough Riders crowds parked there anyway. I was a season ticket holder for 15 years and never once parked in the Lansdowne lot - spots just weren't available and there was a huge waiting list. 90+% of CFL fans will either use transit or park in neighbourhood streets - just like they did before.

And Ottawa was already a sprawling city by the 70s and 80s. If anything the core has densified since then and you have more transit users and car-free city slickers than ever before.

I suspect that on football game days or during other big events, most driving clients for the businesses at Lansdowne will likely stay away. That's part of the risk of setting up shop there, or at least they think they'll do some business with event patrons as a trade-off.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

Nice. This cartoon applies to almost anything in government.

[alecz_dad]

I could walk out the door and check, but can't be bothered.

Once the skeleton of the mega plex was completed, I was cautiously optimistic that perhaps they had pulled it back a bit so as not to so completely obscure the view of the Aberdeen Pavilion down Adelaide Street.

However, seeing where the footings are for Building D, just to the east, I'm pretty convinced that all that will be left is a keyhole view if you stand just at the corner of Adelaide and Holmwood.

Originally Posted by citizen j

I'm glad we're able to use this forum as a safe space to talk about our feelings. Meanwhile, does anyone have any photos or actual construction updates?

[JFFournier]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

I agree that (insert name here) Arena is a horrible place. Unfortunately, the Lansdowne scheme as it seems to be unfolding, seems to just be bringing suburban horribleness downtown, and likely helping to snuff out much of what makes the Glebe a nice place for you to visit.

Awwwww....

No need for concern then. As a visitor, what would I be losing, exactly? All those great visits to the Coliseum building? If I still want to go to some of the stores I've enjoyed in the past, I can. If I want to go into Central Park, I can (God knows very few people do, despite claims of lack of park space in the Glebe). And now the Horticulture will actually be useful! The stadium will be much improved. I will enjoy the Glebe far more!

As touching as your concern for visitors is, it is unnecessary. The most vocal opposition came from within the Glebe. It doesn't seem as though many people living outside the neighborhood were afraid of losing whatever made the Glebe a nice place to visit so I think you can rest easy.

[JFFournier]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

I could walk out the door and check, but can't be bothered.

Once the skeleton of the mega plex was completed, I was cautiously optimistic that perhaps they had pulled it back a bit so as not to so completely obscure the view of the Aberdeen Pavilion down Adelaide Street.

However, seeing where the footings are for Building D, just to the east, I'm pretty convinced that all that will be left is a keyhole view if you stand just at the corner of Adelaide and Holmwood.

Hey, any chance that the view from your house is the bigger reason why you're still agonizing over this? Could it be that the enjoyment levels of visitors is actually secondary?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

I'll be curious to see how much the movie theatre, and retail stores not oriented towards game-day attendees (no fun hefting that 20-lb bag of Whole Foods organic lentils back to your car at Carleton) will enjoy having to give up most of a day's sales because their normal clientele can't get anywhere near them.

You mean they signed a multi-year lease without knowing that there was a stadium that would be used in the complex?

[alecz_dad]

Indeed, O'Brien is a name embarrassing both to all citizens of Ottawa, and by the looks of that picture, to his wife and his dog. Nonetheless, who do you think cooked up this little deal with OSMUG? (And shitcanned the north-south LRT). I wonder how many million reasons OSMUG gave to Larry, to get him to change his tune?

Although the NCC has historically resisted this sort of development adjacent to Lebreton, I would wager that given this federal government's willingness both to crack the whip on federal agencies that don't tow their line, and to meddle in the affairs of the City of Ottawa when it suits local reichsführer Baird, they might well have relented this time. We'll never know, will we?

Not sure I agree with your assertion that only Phoenix is building a new stadium in the suburbs. San Francisco's new Levis Stadium for the 49ers football team is 63 km from their old central Candlestick Park location. I'm sure there are others.

As I have repeatedly said, the difference between how things were with Lansdowne before, and how they will be is quantum. Although no longer a good place to put a stadium, given that it was located where it was a century ago because it was the edge of town (the suburbs), I would ave accepted fixing it up, and a much more restrained redevelopment. But combining the two, at a site that barely accommodates the first, is folly.

I HAVE accepted that it will be. But it doesn't mean I have to like it. Or to shut up about not liking it. And, inevitably to say "I told you so," when it turns out to be yet another white elephant, like the baseball stadium.

Originally Posted by JackBauer24

So you're big supporting reference for a pro-Bayview location is ex-mayor O'Brien? I think I even have to say anything to combat that point - having the name O'Brien attached to it is enough.

And second, regarding getting the NCC on board, there is a big difference between building a transit system that essentially will take up as much space as a road versus building a huge stadium with additional parking lots.

And third, regarding the 4 other potential locations, when I was asking 'where' I was asking for reasonable and logical locations, locations where visitors can easily access and that would be able to accommodate additional parking lots. None of the areas you suggested would be able to do that. In fact, there are very few locations in the city that could - Lansdowne, JetForm Park (former Lynx Stadium) or some where out in the 'burbs.

There is no magic spot where it'll make everyone happy. as I posted early, put the stadium in Orleans, Kanata folk will be upset and vice versa. So, why not take a page out of any other major North American city's playbook (except Phoenix) and put the stadium in the middle of our city where you have visitors coming from all directions.

I understand that change (especially change that is against your wishes) is hard to accept, but what I don't understand is why individuals like you, who live in the Glebe and who lived there when Lansdowne was functional, are putting up such a fuss about this. You act their building another stadium where a orphanage once existed. It was a stadium, it's going to be one again. I think it's time you take Step 6 - and accept the fact that this project is moving forward despite your displeasure.