Economy Thread

[Highinthesky]

They interviewed the CAW rep for the St Thomas plant on CBC radio on Thursday and he said a couple hundred of the employees has been transferred to other Ford plants in N/A, Oakville being one. He also said a significant amount for eligible or retirement so its not a direct 1200 hit from Ford. A good has been mentioned about parts suppliers in the area, Lear being one. However the Lear plant has also already been purchased by a new company.

The problem with the St Thomas Ford Plant is that it is a fixed line production facility meaning they could only build cars on one platform. All the new plants can built several different platforms on the same line making them more flexible and responsive to market situations. That is what killed St Thomas, it just wasn't economically feasible to spend the money to upgrade the plant to a more flexible production line.

[ssiguy]

Sad news and yet another blow to the beleagured St,Thomas economy.
Does anyone know when the plant opened?

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Sad news and yet another blow to the beleagured St,Thomas economy.
Does anyone know when the plant opened?

It opened in 1967.

[Wharn]

Alright guys, more bad news...

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2.../18923646.html

Unemployment's up again, from 9% in September to 9.2% in October. Part of this is likely due to continuing trouble from St. Thomas, but I think the economy for London proper is doing very shittily (wouldn't be surprised if the unemployment rate for this city alone was in the range of 8.8%). Meanwhile the smug Windsorites who were making fun of us not so long ago (apologies for the compassionate ones who felt our pain) have been rudely slapped back into place, since that city has a 10.5% unemployment rate. The situation looks bleak for Ontario as a whole. We lost over 75,000 full-time jobs last month, which is practically the size of a small city's workforce.

My suggestion to anyone who's thinking about getting a job in manufacturing: it ain't happening. People keep coming back with the old tariff argument, but personally I don't see anything attractive about going back to the days of shitty, expensive goods, particularly cars. What can be done instead? Learn a trade. Get a college diploma. Move to Alberta.

[MolsonExport]

Manufacturing in the West is an undisputed loser in the globalization game. The swath of uncreative destruction is nothing short of cataclysmic in the rustbelt of the USA, which noses into Canada around SW Ontario. I remember when Montreal's manufacturing industry likewise imploded during the recession of the nineties (which was far worse in Montreal than the current one is in London). I could not find decent work in the city, despite my bilingualism, BComm degree (since supplemented by MSc, PhD), and lengthy work experience. I headed out to Lotus Land (BC) where there were jobs...none well-paying but jobs all the same. BC has almost no manufacturing.

Globalization is inevitable, but the process is gut-wrenchingly painful for many industrial sectors.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Alright guys, more bad news...

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2.../18923646.html

Unemployment's up again, from 9% in September to 9.2% in October. Part of this is likely due to continuing trouble from St. Thomas, but I think the economy for London proper is doing very shittily (wouldn't be surprised if the unemployment rate for this city alone was in the range of 8.8%). Meanwhile the smug Windsorites who were making fun of us not so long ago (apologies for the compassionate ones who felt our pain) have been rudely slapped back into place, since that city has a 10.5% unemployment rate. The situation looks bleak for Ontario as a whole. We lost over 75,000 full-time jobs last month, which is practically the size of a small city's workforce.

My suggestion to anyone who's thinking about getting a job in manufacturing: it ain't happening. People keep coming back with the old tariff argument, but personally I don't see anything attractive about going back to the days of shitty, expensive goods, particularly cars. What can be done instead? Learn a trade. Get a college diploma. Move to Alberta.

Yeah' I don't understand people who take pleasure in other regions suffering, especially when you come from a region that has suffered more than anywhere else.

I want Windsor, London and the whole southwest to prosper and grow. We need to stick together and promote the whole region in order to realize our potential.

[haljackey]

The good news is that London isn't suffering from urban decay (a decline in resident population within the city limits) which generally means that there are businesses that are growing a municipal government which has the resources to help them.

When populations declines, governments have a smaller tax base which means they are strained. The still have to do stuff like road and sewer upkeep which means there's less and less money available for other programs.

While I wish London was growing faster (similar to K/W's growth rate), I'm happy that it hasn't really declined due to the bad economic news (it has consistently stayed ~1% a year).

[north 42]

Our tax base in Windsor has fallen almost 30% since 2006, mostly due to closing factories and reassesment rulings. Even though our tax base was being dessimated, our mayor and council has kept a zero increase to property taxes for the last 4 years, amazing considering no services were cut. We also have reduced our debt significantly, while also building a new arena (already paid for) and making major improvements to our roads and parks, as well as starting to build a new aquatic centre downtown and not issuing any new debt to pay for any of it.

Quite a feat if you ask me, considering the current state of our economy. Thank god we have a mayor who can accoimplish all this.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by north 42

Quite a feat if you ask me, considering the current state of our economy. Thank god we have a mayor who can accoimplish all this.

Yeah Windsor has been pretty resilient despite what's been happening there. It's no Flint or Detroit that's for sure.

With the Ford Plant now closed (just outside the city limits) the municipality of central Elgin is considering raising residential property taxes 4-9% to make up for the lost revenue the plant coughed up. I don't want to sound mean here but I'm just glad the old plant isn't within our city limits.

[Highinthesky]

Do you mean the Township of Southwold since the ford plant is located there and not Central Elgin. That increase would bring it back in line with the rest f the county. Southwold has had residential tax rates not much higher than 1% for years while the rest of the municipalities in the county have been closer to 1.5%

[Snark]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Manufacturing in the West is an undisputed loser in the globalization game. The swath of uncreative destruction is nothing short of cataclysmic in the rustbelt of the USA, which noses into Canada around SW Ontario. I remember when Montreal's manufacturing industry likewise imploded during the recession of the nineties (which was far worse in Montreal than the current one is in London). I could not find decent work in the city, despite my bilingualism, BComm degree (since supplemented by MSc, PhD), and lengthy work experience. I headed out to Lotus Land (BC) where there were jobs...none well-paying but jobs all the same. BC has almost no manufacturing.

Globalization is inevitable, but the process is gut-wrenchingly painful for many industrial sectors.

Well put. All of the pieces are in play for the first time in some 50 years. There will be casualties. We are not prepared.

[Kokkei Mizu]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Yeah Windsor has been pretty resilient despite what's been happening there. It's no Flint or Detroit that's for sure.

With the Ford Plant now closed (just outside the city limits) the municipality of central Elgin is considering raising residential property taxes 4-9% to make up for the lost revenue the plant coughed up. I don't want to sound mean here but I'm just glad the old plant isn't within our city limits.

It's Southwold Township as Highinthesky said. And in my opinion the closed plant is a good asset to the township. Someday it will most likely turned into a multi-unit industrial park which will provide even more job security than what Ford could have offered.

[Symz]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Alright guys, more bad news...

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2.../18923646.html

Unemployment's up again, from 9% in September to 9.2% in October. Part of this is likely due to continuing trouble from St. Thomas, but I think the economy for London proper is doing very shittily (wouldn't be surprised if the unemployment rate for this city alone was in the range of 8.8%). Meanwhile the smug Windsorites who were making fun of us not so long ago (apologies for the compassionate ones who felt our pain) have been rudely slapped back into place, since that city has a 10.5% unemployment rate. The situation looks bleak for Ontario as a whole. We lost over 75,000 full-time jobs last month, which is practically the size of a small city's workforce.

My suggestion to anyone who's thinking about getting a job in manufacturing: it ain't happening. People keep coming back with the old tariff argument, but personally I don't see anything attractive about going back to the days of shitty, expensive goods, particularly cars. What can be done instead? Learn a trade. Get a college diploma. Move to Alberta.

Hey can you point me to any of these 'smug Windsorite' posts? I'm really curious to see these, because, well, I can't seem to remember them. Please back up your statement since it is such a bold one!

Personally, as a Windsorite, I could care less what the unemployment in London is, and you know why? because it's probably lower than it is in Windsor. Windsor is my primary concern, and really my only concern. London has always been a bit more a metropolitan city than Windsor the old lunch-bucket city.

Anyways, I'd love to see these 'smug Windsorite' posts!

[Symz]

Originally Posted by north 42

Our tax base in Windsor has fallen almost 30% since 2006, mostly due to closing factories and reassesment rulings. Even though our tax base was being dessimated, our mayor and council has kept a zero increase to property taxes for the last 4 years, amazing considering no services were cut. We also have reduced our debt significantly, while also building a new arena (already paid for) and making major improvements to our roads and parks, as well as starting to build a new aquatic centre downtown and not issuing any new debt to pay for any of it.

Quite a feat if you ask me, considering the current state of our economy. Thank god we have a mayor who can accoimplish all this.

Hey north42, did you see this recent article on cbc windsor??

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...dget-cuts.html

The City of Windsor has to find and cut $18 million if it wants to achieve its target of a zero tax increase next year.

If staff and council can't find the savings, taxes could jump more than 4.5 per cent in 2012.

Councillor Fulvio Valentinis says the pressure will be on council to make some difficult decisions.

"We have to look at everything, but I'm hoping that we're going to be able to do that; whether it's through consolidations, whether it's through some delayed hirings," Valentinis said. "But like I said, everything really is on the table and everyone's being asked to keep that in mind as part of their budget deliberations."

Valentinis says the deicisions get more difficult every year.

"The last four or five years, we have been cutting, we have been through consolidations and deferred hirings. We've been looking at cutting our cost because our tax revenue has not been increasing," Valentinis said. "So as a result, to come up with an addditional $18 million now, is going to be a challenge."

[north 42]

^^^ No I didn't see that article, thanks Symz. That's a huge amount to come up with when you have a stagnant and shrinking tax base. I truly believe that Eddie will once again come in with a zero percent tax increase this year. It will be interesting to see where this money will be cut from. I suggest the Cops and fire department.

It'll be nice when we get some growth again in this city. With so many good things happening here and with all the new developements in the works, the city should start to see better times.

[manny_santos]

I agree that the concessions that the parent company Caterpillar is asking for are extreme, but there has to be concessions somewhere if these people want to keep their jobs.

As far as I'm concerned, $30/hour is way too much. And, contrary to what an E-M employee claimed in the Free Press comments, you do not need a post-secondary education to work there. I know someone who works there and he only has high school. I have university and I've never made more than $12/hour doing anything.

The attitude taken by the CAW isn't going to do anything to help these workers. And, after I read Ken Lewenza's unprofessional diatribe in the Free Press a couple days ago, I think if I were Caterpillar management I wouldn't want to negotiate with him either.

The CAW has to realize the economic reality of the world today. The Canadian dollar is near par with the U.S. dollar, which it wasn't a few years ago. And, the Mexican peso is significantly undervalued, which is part of why labour there is so cheap in U.S. dollar terms.

[bolognium]

I feel for the employees at Electro-Motive since no one should be dealt the ultimatum of having wages cut in half or losing their job. However, I really think E-M is as good as gone. I just don't see how this factory can remain in London when neither side is willing to negotiate and CAT has basically all the leverage.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current workers strike. If CAT is serious about finding replacements to work during the strike, I'd imagine there'll be hundreds of competent, skilled labourers lining up to take the job. Maybe that will finally send the message home to all these E-M employees that the reality of London's job market is quite grim. If all of their positions fill up with scab workers in a few days maybe then they'll start to reconsider the offer CAT has made.

Tough spot these E-M guys are in.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by bolognium

I feel for the employees at Electro-Motive since no one should be dealt the ultimatum of having wages cut in half or losing their job. However, I really think E-M is as good as gone. I just don't see how this factory can remain in London when neither side is willing to negotiate and CAT has basically all the leverage.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current workers strike. If CAT is serious about finding replacements to work during the strike, I'd imagine there'll be hundreds of competent, skilled labourers lining up to take the job. Maybe that will finally send the message home to all these E-M employees that the reality of London's job market is quite grim. If all of their positions fill up with scab workers in a few days maybe then they'll start to reconsider the offer CAT has made.

Tough spot these E-M guys are in.

I know that if I didn't already have a new job starting in a couple weeks, I'd gladly be a scab. I haven't earned any income since September, not counting what I've earned from self-employment.

If these people want good-paying jobs, they need to leave Southwestern Ontario and either go to Western Canada, or go outside Canada. Part of our economic recovery is going to involve population shifts, inevitably.

Of course, the latter solution is only a good option if you're single with no dependents, like me.

[MolsonExport]

Ahhh...they get their tax holiday and now they want to take their toys and go home. Another reason why bribing companies to stay in Canada/London is a poor decision and only ends up screwing john Q taxpayer.

Christ, when will the bad employment news taper off?

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by Symz

Hey can you point me to any of these 'smug Windsorite' posts? I'm really curious to see these, because, well, I can't seem to remember them. Please back up your statement since it is such a bold one!

Personally, as a Windsorite, I could care less what the unemployment in London is, and you know why? because it's probably lower than it is in Windsor. Windsor is my primary concern, and really my only concern. London has always been a bit more a metropolitan city than Windsor the old lunch-bucket city.

Anyways, I'd love to see these 'smug Windsorite' posts!

It was in another thread a while back during the summer, when we had the highest unemployment rate in the country. Someone from Windsor said something to the effect of "Maybe you should stop making fun of Windsor! Who's on top now, London?" I really don't feel like hunting for it, so I suppose you win by default.

Originally Posted by bolognium

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current workers strike. If CAT is serious about finding replacements to work during the strike, I'd imagine there'll be hundreds of competent, skilled labourers lining up to take the job. Maybe that will finally send the message home to all these E-M employees that the reality of London's job market is quite grim. If all of their positions fill up with scab workers in a few days maybe then they'll start to reconsider the offer CAT has made.

Personally I don't feel sorry for them at all. They're living in a dream world, oblivious to the economic reality that governs the plant, and they're demanding an unsustainable level of pensions and benefits. If Caterpillar can't pull off the scab workers, then it may be the beginning of the end for Electro-Motive. They're already in an environment with high electricity costs, and adding high labour costs on top of that just makes the plant completely uncompetitive with American equivalents.