Rail-based Transit Discussion

[Nouvellecosse]

This is a message I posted in the Toronto section of SSC regarding the Eglinton corridor, but I also wonder if something similar would be an option here. There has been talk recently about a third bridge, and I think it would be a much better option to use the funds for something like this.

After scanning the thread, it seems like the arguments come down to a few simple points on each side:

Pro-subway
Long term investment (will handle future ridership growth)
Faster service (many proponents claim LRT will be too slow)
More reliable (some fear LRT will succumb to delays due to traffic interaction)

Pro-LRT
Lower initial investment
Some say the corridor doesn't warrant HRT capacity
Better local service (many proponents claim subway stops are too far apart)

So what we need is a solution that is cheaper than normal subway but equally fast and reliable, and significantly increases capacity (but not necessarily to the level of normal subway) that provides strong local service but also enough speed to service across town travelers, and is expandable to handle future growth.

Of all the suggestions made so far, I like the one consisting of local and express LRT the most. But has anyone considered this suggestion? How about a single tracked subway?

The line would have a single tunnel that would accommodate a single HRT track, but would have double tracks in station. Since stations are a major component of subway cost, the stations would be fairly far apart (think Northern Yonge St.) to provide fast express service, and local service would be provided by continuing surface bus service. Here's a segment of the subway:

Legend
_______________ Single track
{1=========} Double track (in station 1)
-A<-<-<-<-<-< 6 Car Train 'A' traveling right to left
{1->->->->->->B-} 6 car Train 'B' in station 3 beside empty track


In the following example, there is a cross section of three stations 1, 2, & 3 (it would be best to keep an uneven number of stations) in which train A is about to meet and pass train B

{1->->->->->->A}_____________{2=========}____________{3-B<-<-<-<-<-<}

The trains are electronically controlled and their speed is adjusted to arrive at station 2 at the same time, leaving stations 1 and 3 empty.

----------------------------------------------- -B<-<-<-<-<-<-
{1==========}______________{2->->->->->->A}______________{3========}

At the same time as trains A and B leave station 2 to reach stations 1 and 3 respectively, imaginary trains leave stations 0 and 4 (not shown) to arrive at 1 and 3 to repeat the process.

The benefit to this is that although the initial cost would be greatly reduced, the setup could be expanded in the future to address growth by twinning the tunnel and adding/renovating stations to give both express and local service. The capacity would not be quite as high as twin tracked HRT, but would still be excellent. If there was 2km between each station, the trains have an average traveling speed of 80km/h (max 110km/h) and stop at each station for about 30 sec, then there would be a train arriving at each station from each direction in as little as every 4 min. This may not be the super high 2-3 min frequency of the busiest subway lines during peak periods, but close enough. And I'm sure that the computer technology available currently would allow the automation to work quite well.

So what does everyone think of this alternative? Personally I've often wondered if things like this would be a good alternative for lighter-capacity routes or as an entry level alternative for cities buildings their first system.

A single tracked rail transit tunnel from the Alderny area across to Scotia terminal then on to the train station where it would surface and become a commuter route along the railcut connecting to feeder bus and park/ride facilities up as far as Rockingham or even Bedford. I'd also like to see it extended up toward the Circumferential to better allow park and ride access. This has the ability to both substantially reduce congestion on the bridges and speed commute times.

[halifaxboyns]

I wanted to post this movie link as I have been watching this series. I think I mentioned this to Jono; but this is an excerpt from the show E squared which is by PBS and is about urban design and environmentalism. This particular clip is from the episode `Portland: A sense of place`. This is to give you a sense of the power of streetcar LRT and what kind of investment it can attract.

Personally, I think if HRM is going to start out with LRT it should go back to streetcars in some areas that could really use the investment and redevelopment and I`ve done a map up of some of those areas which I`ll post later. But this section gives you the most important comment (I think of the episode) of how much investment the streetcar has created.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYYWx_cgJO4

[MalcolmTucker]

the streetcar has created

Important to remember streetcar or lrt doesn't create development, just shapes it and moves it around. Fortunately some of the movement will be 'stolen' from neighboring cities and maybe even further (other atlantic provinces possibly).

[someone123]

Often overall development is limited by infrastructure and spending can increase the total amount of economic activity in a region. This is probably true in the Halifax area where there's a lot of institutional paralysis and competition with other cities around the country.

The principal gain of rail however probably would be shifting development. It's easy to imagine an area like the North End absorbing another 10,000 people or so and the advantage in servicing costs alone compared to development on the urban fringe would be huge.

I think streetcars in Halifax would be wonderful and a system would be cheap to set up. It would be easy to do piecemeal improvements over time by adding signal improvements, underground sections, etc. A lot of people who would never get on the buses now would rely on a good modern streetcar system for day-to-day transportation.

[fenwick16]

I think that discouraging cars from the downtown core would eventually improve the vibrancy of the downtown core if it is done so that the core is served by a true rapid transit system with frequent service (every 5 minutes or so, like the Toronto subway system). Personally, I think that LRT at street-level would only be a benefit if some streets are turned into dedicated public transit right-of-ways. Cars sharing the street with streetcars or LRT is a nightmare for both the cars and LRT.

If a rapid transit loop is established with frequent service whereby people can park their cars on the perimeter of the core and quickly get to the downtown core then it would be a benefit. Ideally, the park and ride locations would be at locations such as near the West Mall and Dartmouth Shopping Centre.

[halifaxboyns]

I've been reading up on the Portland Streetcar. It has a freequency of every 13 minutes, which increases between 9:30 and 5pm weekdays and on Saturdays (same times). After 5pm and before 9:30 it's every 14 to 20 minutes and Sundays every 15 to 20.

They've made a lot of effort to expand the service all over Portland's downtown. One thing which is a bit different than most streetcars is that there are fareboxes in the actual cars, versus the station platforms. The only thing available at the platform is a validator for a ticket (to stamp when the ticket took effect).

According to wiki, the current portland streetcar line is 12.6km and it was constructed at a cost $57 million (us). I'm assuming that is not including the vehicles, but I could be wrong. I'd suggest using the same cars as Vancouver used for demonstration which hold about 85 people sitting with full capacity at around 150. It should be noted most of this distance is because of Portland's one way streets - which gives me hope we could use Hollis Street and Lower Water (once they convert to fully one way) as the primary in and outbound routing.

I realize that where you put the line would create a level of confidence that would move development which is why placing the line would need to done with two key things in mind: getting people into downtown and being located in areas where intensification could/should be directed.

The reason I look at the Agricola street corridor (between the Hydrostone and downtown) is because this is primarily the area that the STV/HT people have suggested tall buildings should go. So, let's play their game. The other bonus is that in terms of vehicle volume, Agricola is the lower of the three main roads travelling the same direction (Robie and Gottingen) - so co-mingling the streetcar with traffic wouldn't be as much of a problem as it might be with Gottingen or Robie (especially during rush hours).

Plus, if we really want to get the downtown to become alive again - it's not just about getting buildings into the core, but getting people around the core as well. If you could add say 5,000 or even 10,000 people to the Agricola area between North and Cunard - I'm willing to bet most would walk, bike or take transit versus driving and would shop all over the downtown area (including any shops along Agricola).

[Jonovision]

I was thinking about this last night. And how routes would be laid through the downtown. My main concern that kept popping up was the slope of some of the hills. What is the maximum slope a regular street car can climb/descend? I'm thinking with regards to connecting an Agricola/Robie/Gottingen line down Cogswell Street to connect to either Barrington/Hollis/Lower Water.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

I was thinking about this last night. And how routes would be laid through the downtown. My main concern that kept popping up was the slope of some of the hills. What is the maximum slope a regular street car can climb/descend? I'm thinking with regards to connecting an Agricola/Robie/Gottingen line down Cogswell Street to connect to either Barrington/Hollis/Lower Water.

When I was looking at this idea - I had a look at the flexity2 street which (as I understand it) is the next generation of the version used for demonstration in Vancouver.

So I did some checking on their website about these trains and their PDF about these trains said this about the maximum gradient:
Maximum gradient 60 ‰. Now, I'm not sure what that means for sure - but I'm assuming that it's not going to cope with hills like San Fran - but considering the long term plan is to take down and rework the cogswell interchange, my idea had that in mind. Considering the maximum grade of most city roads is usually 10% - I'm assuming that this train could handle it, it might just be slow.

The other thing I may not have noted in my thoughts on a route was how it could be used as a draw for the farmers market and Pier 21 (especially during the summer). So what I had thought was that the route would come down Cogswell through the new intersection routing and then come inbound into the core along Hollis all the way to the train station. Then down Barrington to the end and under the tracks (requiring the existing pedestrian tunnel to be widened) and out onto Marginal Road heading back into downtown past Pier 21 and the farmers market. Then along lower water, back up through the new Cogswell design and onto it's route down Agricola.

By having the train traverse all of downtown and then into the 'new' growth area (by Hollis/Morris), and then going down to Pier 21/Farmers Market - you open up a rapid transit opportunity to these areas and don't have to worry about the steep hills. Plus, if you bring transit to these areas (Pier 21/Farmers Market) you open up the market to more people who could access it more frequently. Plus, think of the fun people coming off cruise ships would have walking out to the market and then discovering there was a streetcar right there for them. If they didn't want to do a bus tour out to Peggy's Cove, they could just jump on the streetcar and ride it to the Maritime Museum or to the commons and then back again.

Here is the link to the PDF I mentioned.

[hfx_chris]

The way I see it, if the Birney cars could climb the steep Halifax hills, including Richmond, then anything built today would also be able to handle it.

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

‰ means per mil or per 1,000
% means per cent or per 100
Therefore 60‰ = 6%

So the Flexity units can deal with a 6% grade, which might cause some problems downtown.

My contact with the City advised me that the current Cogswell interchange ramp from Barrington up to Brunswick is 6%, while the lower ramp is 3%. I asked him what the potential grades would be once the ramps were taken down and redone to remove the interchange and he advised me the goal was to keep it to max 6%.

I'm sure that other streetcar products they have would be able to handle a great grade and their website talk about customizing the trains to each city. The flyer I showed was for that specific example in the UK - so I'm assuming you could probably obtain a more powerful powertrain which could handle even steeper grade.

[MalcolmTucker]

The new Toronto Flexity Outlooks will be able to run 8% grades.

[someone123]

Google Earth 6 has an awesome feature -- elevation profiles for paths:


(image is mine)

That is just a sample path. Note that the data is sketchy just after 2 km. The downtown slopes should be totally doable for streetcars (what you experience in person is very deceptive -- people tend to think that slopes are way bigger than they actually are). Not sure what their turning radius, but I'm guessing it's pretty good if they operate in a variety of European cities.

[Jonovision]

My concern was more so with the grade on Cogswell after the interchange. Between Brunswick and Gottingen. I think that point and then down the south end of Barrington would be the only streets that would have a relatively small grade that the LRT could handle.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

The new Toronto Flexity Outlooks will be able to run 8% grades.

I just was reading through the PDF from their website and was about to post this - beat me to it!

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

My concern was more so with the grade on Cogswell after the interchange. Between Brunswick and Gottingen. I think that point and then down the south end of Barrington would be the only streets that would have a relatively small grade that the LRT could handle.

Well if the data that someone just posted is correct (and if I read it right) currently the grade is 3.5% (is that right)? As I understand it; the new interchange is aiming for 6% but I'm guessing it might go as high as 8%. I guess it will depend on the design.

[planarchy]

The Lausanne Metro system averages 5.7% slope with a max of 12%.

The city also has a population of only 125,000. Impressive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lausanne_Metro

[MalcolmTucker]

For population important to compare apples to apples. Lausanne agglomeration has 70 municipalities of which Lausanne is only 1 which have a total population of just under 400k.

Even given that it is still impressive. Also impressive is the line was seriously controlled in scope with some single tracking to keep costs down. It also keeps capacity down to around 6,000 ppdph but I doubt Halifax would require much more in any near term.

It is also unclear how much tunnel infrastructure they were able to reuse, the project site describes that it uses 8 tunnels, and 6 were built new. It is possible the reused tunnels were of a fairly significant length significantly reducing costs to just over $600 million if today's exchange rates are used. So $100 million per km is pretty cheap for entirely grade separated - I wouldn't be surprised if the budget didn't include some costs that in Canada would be included in the project budget.

Few questions for Haligoanians:
How much is the gas tax transfer to Halifax and what is it being used for now? I don't think a city would ever take on a project larger than 10 years of transfers times the three levels of government.

What would be a good guess of the number of buses crossing the MacDonald bridge at peak plus the number of ferry crossings? Presumably fixed transit would eliminate all these crossings, so it would be a good estimate of what the low end of demand would be. If low, it would rule out a crossing on a route I think.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

For population important to compare apples to apples. Lausanne agglomeration has 70 municipalities of which Lausanne is only 1 which have a total population of just under 400k.

Even given that it is still impressive. Also impressive is the line was seriously controlled in scope with some single tracking to keep costs down. It also keeps capacity down to around 6,000 ppdph but I doubt Halifax would require much more in any near term.

It is also unclear how much tunnel infrastructure they were able to reuse, the project site describes that it uses 8 tunnels, and 6 were built new. It is possible the reused tunnels were of a fairly significant length significantly reducing costs to just over $600 million if today's exchange rates are used. So $100 million per km is pretty cheap for entirely grade separated - I wouldn't be surprised if the budget didn't include some costs that in Canada would be included in the project budget.

Few questions for Haligoanians:
How much is the gas tax transfer to Halifax and what is it being used for now? I don't think a city would ever take on a project larger than 10 years of transfers times the three levels of government.

What would be a good guess of the number of buses crossing the MacDonald bridge at peak plus the number of ferry crossings? Presumably fixed transit would eliminate all these crossings, so it would be a good estimate of what the low end of demand would be. If low, it would rule out a crossing on a route I think.

I don't believe that any tunnels would be needed for a streetcar type system - it could run in the median of a street like Cogswell (mostly) and then be integrated into traffic in the core (along Hollis (inbound) and Lower Water (outbound)). The first route I had thought of (because of all the opportunity to densify the north end was: Leaving the park in front of the Hydrostone, down Young to Agricola. Then down Agricola to Cunard - into the median at North Park and then down Cogswell to Hollis. Hollis to the train station, taking a left at Barrington and under the railway tracks to Pier 21/Farmers Market. Down Lower Water and then back up Cogswell repeating the route back to the Hydrostone. I just realized, 1 tunnel would be required - under the railway tracks.

If my rough math on crossing is correct - during rush hour (4 to 6pm) there are 13 ferry crossings and about 45 bus crossings. So a total of 58 crossings. I hadn't thought of a streetcar over the bridge, but I think they did it before. But given how much heavier the modern streetcars are, I'm not sure how well the bridge would take it.

I was looking at the Portland Streetcar as an example that the service could be every 20 minutes from 6am to 7am; every 12 minutes from 7am to 9pm and then back to every 20 minutes until end of service. Sunday would be slightly different - every 20 minutes until 10am; then every 12 minutes until 6pm - then back to every 20 minutes.

[MalcolmTucker]

Is

So a total of 58 crossings.

both ways or one way traffic?