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  #341  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2016, 3:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I'm not sure why you keep saying this when the network map already confirms that only a handful of routes will be on the MC bridge.
Yes, I know the Bank Street route is unimportant. Convenient transfers are not needed.
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  #342  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2016, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Yes, I know the Bank Street route is unimportant. Convenient transfers are not needed.
Transfers for the Bank St. routes (7, 11 and 52) won't be at Rideau but at Parliament (they travel along Queen St. between Bank and either O'Conner (eastbound) or Elgin (westbound)). Routes 12 and 17 are also extended to Parliament, so transfers to those routes can be made there as well. The only downtown "frequent" routes that direct transfers can't be made to are 8, 9 10, and 85, but routes 8 and 85 don't travel to Rideau anyway so it will be difficult for anyone to transfer directly to them(shortsighted IMHO).

Having said that, I think all of the downtown "frequent" routes should travel to Rideau (including routes 8 and 85). I suspect the problem is capacity on Rideau with all of the STO buses traveling along it as well. Maybe they should use McKenzie King instead.
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  #343  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2016, 8:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
I'm not sure why you keep saying this when the network map already confirms that only a handful of routes will be on the MC bridge.
Do.

Not.

Rely.

On.

That.

Map.

The city has a deal with the Rideau Centre. Local routes will use the bridge, not Rideau Street.
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  #344  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2016, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Transfers for the Bank St. routes (7, 11 and 52) won't be at Rideau but at Parliament (they travel along Queen St. between Bank and either O'Conner (eastbound) or Elgin (westbound)). Routes 12 and 17 are also extended to Parliament, so transfers to those routes can be made there as well. The only downtown "frequent" routes that direct transfers can't be made to are 8, 9 10, and 85, but routes 8 and 85 don't travel to Rideau anyway so it will be difficult for anyone to transfer directly to them(shortsighted IMHO).

Having said that, I think all of the downtown "frequent" routes should travel to Rideau (including routes 8 and 85). I suspect the problem is capacity on Rideau with all of the STO buses traveling along it as well. Maybe they should use McKenzie King instead.
I have yet to see this "capacity" issue. It does not exist.

The busses-off-Rideau solution, to a non-existent problem, is to satisfy the Rideau Centre owners, and, secondarily, the NCC anti-bus fetishists who don't want so many buses cluttering up their precious, pointless, stupid, "Confederation Boulevard".

"Confederation Boulevard" is for cars.
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  #345  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2016, 2:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
The city has a deal with the Rideau Centre. Local routes will use the bridge, not Rideau Street.
Source? The network map is very recent.
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  #346  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
Source? The network map is very recent.
City Hall mole.
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  #347  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Local routes will use the bridge, not Rideau Street.
FYI. Local routes are grey on the map. The orange routes are Frequent routes.

I would like to see some changes made to the Rideau/Wellington/Elgin triangle to improve the flow of buses from Rideau to Queen St. East bound is not so bad, but westbound, its a big bottleneck. They could make the left westbound lane of Rideau a bus only lane between Sussex and northbound Elgin. On northbound Elgin, make the west most lane a southbound bus lane. This would give buses higher priority and eliminate a traffic light. The buses could turn right on Queen when traffic on Queen has a green light. This should be easy to do and reduce the congestion that buses have to deal with.
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  #348  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 9:50 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
FYI. Local routes are grey on the map. The orange routes are Frequent routes.
That is, as they say in the legal profession, a distinction without a difference: the "frequent" routes, a misnomer if there ever was one, are the future locals.
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  #349  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2016, 1:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
That is, as they say in the legal profession, a distinction without a difference: the "frequent" routes, a misnomer if there ever was one, are the future locals.
Agreed. Its just a name. According to Bus Service Identification - June 7, 2016, "Frequent" routes will have the following characteristics:
  • Every 15 minutes or less between 6:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m. on weekdays; and,
  • Operates 7 days/week;

Every 15 minutes may not seem frequent, but many "Local" routes operate every 30 or 60 minutes. Some might not even operate continuously from 6:00am to 7:00pm or 7 days a week.

I would like to see minimum service levels defined for "Frequent" routes during other time periods as well. For example, the "Every 15 minutes or less" should be extended to include busy times on Saturdays and Sundays and an overall minimum service level should be defined during the regular operating day. Just because it isn't defined, doesn't mean it won't happen, but it will make OC Transpo accountable to City Hall for providing a minimum level of service.

The "Local" routes are are basically routes that don't fit any of the other definitions (Rapid, Frequent, Connexion, School, Event, and Shopper). As you said they are just names. The name tries to describe its characteristics using a bilingual word, but in reality they may not perform as the name might imply.

Last edited by roger1818; Sep 27, 2016 at 1:57 PM.
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  #350  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2016, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Every 15 minutes may not seem frequent, but many "Local" routes operate every 30 or 60 minutes. Some might not even operate continuously from 6:00am to 7:00pm or 7 days a week.
In the suburbs, yes.

Not the city-central locals.
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  #351  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 9:48 PM
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From the Confederation Line | U/C | Opening November 2018 thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoNerd View Post
I can't imagine all of those routes going to rail in the short term. You are also missing some routes that are already planned (either in TMP or Environmental Studies):
  • LRT from Terry Fox to Hazeldean (and BRT to Fernbank)
  • BRT from Eagleson to Klondike Rd.
  • BRT from Baseline to Bayshore
  • BRT from Marketplace to Cambrian Rd.
  • BRT from Heron to Elmvale
  • BRT from Blair to Frank Kenny Rd

Not saying they all should be done, but many should be higher priorities than some of the things you have listed.
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  #352  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
From the Confederation Line | U/C | Opening November 2018 thread.
Yes, this!


https://twitter.com/CapitalCity613/s...28316784513024

Minor changes;
  1. Confederation to Palladium for its huge TOD potential;
  2. Split the Capital Line at Lansdowne to have one branch down Carling (as proposed) and one branch to Billing's Bridge;
  3. Split the Capital Line at Montfort towards the south to serve La Cité and terminate at Blair;
  4. Have the Trillium Line airport trains interline with Confederation for direct to downtown Ottawa service;
  5. Have an Aylmer Line loop through downtown Hull (using same tracks as Trillium), cross the Alexandra Bridge and terminate in the old Château Laurier tunnel.
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  #353  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2018, 6:52 PM
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A lot of the transit plans have focused on rapid transit on more of a regional level (and rightly so). But I've started to think about how to deal with the smaller, inner-city trips.

Background, this is the post which I made a few weeks ago which has had me toying with the idea:

Quote:
Regarding the "surface vs grade-separated" debate, I've been thinking about this in the context of Ottawa's urban main streets. The way I see it, there are benefits to both approaches:

- Grade-separated (GS)
Pro: Faster vehicle speeds (because fewer stations, exclusive ROW)
Con: Longer walk to station (because of fewer stations), longer pedestrian access times to platforms (because not at street level)
- At-grade (G)
Pro: Shorter pedestrian access times (because at street level and more stations)
Con: Slower vehicle speeds (because more stations, non-exclusive ROW)

This means that GS systems are more useful when you're going long distances because you spend a greater percentage of your time in the transit vehicle as opposed to walking there. For example, you have to go 20km and you either have a 20km/h tram 5 minutes from your door/your destination or a 40km/h subway 10 minutes from your origin/destination. The added 10 minutes of walking is more than offset by the 30 minute reduction of in-vehicle time.

G systems are better for short distances because a bigger share of your time is likely to be spent walking to and from stations. In the same situation, travelling 2 km by subway would total 26 minutes but the tram would get you there in only 16 minutes.


I'm assuming that surface LRT (like Edmonton's Valley Line) runs about 20km/h with stop placement every 500m and that a subway/skytrain runs at 40km/h with a stop every 1000m and require 1.5 minutes to get from the station entrance to the platform (ascending 15m by escalator is about 40 seconds, plus walking on the concourse). I'm also assuming the average walk applies on both ends of the transit trip. With these parameters, surface transit is faster for trips under 8.5km, and GS systems faster above that.

For those interested, here's my formula: (X km/20kph*60min)+10min walk=(X km/40kph*60min)+20min walk+3min access, where X is the point at which GS is faster than G.


There are a few interesting implications as well as some limitations to this model.
For implications, this is an indication that for urban transit corridors where people will generally be walking/cycling to stations, a subway might actually result in longer trips than a surface alternative. I'll soon experience this phenomenon; Currently, I'll often take Ottawa's Transitway BRT for 1-2 stops downtown just because I can easily hop onto a bus from the curb (and because I'm lazy). Once LRT opens, the trains will be faster, but once I factor in the time it takes to get down to the platform and back up again, it'll likely be faster for me to walk those same distances.
So for urban corridors, good surface transit will result in the fastest trips even if the vehicles are slower. Ottawa's Bank/Rideau, Montreal's St-Laurent, and Toronto's King are good examples of this; most people on this corridor walk from their house to the street and have their destination within walking distance too.

However, there are limitations. If this is a transit line which mostly relies on transfers as opposed to walk-in traffic, the difference is largely evened out since there's no difference in access time to the line on one end of the trip. In that case, surface transit is only faster for trips under 5km (excluding the time on the transit line to/from which passengers transfer). The YUS Line is an example of this; although it has walk-ons, I believe that most of the passengers transfer onto the line and then walk to their downtown destination.

And of course, if most passengers transfer on both ends of their trip on a line, GS is always faster. Montreal's Yellow Line is an example of this; the lion's share of passengers transfer by bus on one end and transfer to the metro on the other.
So to sum it up, surface transit is faster under:
Walk-transit-walk: <8.5km
Transit-transit-walk: <5km
Transit-transit-transit: [GS always faster]



So instead of debating which one is always better in all cases, I think that it's important to look at the context and to choose the best mode accordingly. In certain contexts, a faster vehicle may end up in higher trip times for most passengers. And in others, surface options, although they may be attractive from an urban design standpoint, they might not actually be the best option in terms of getting people where they need to go.


So for Ottawa, I think that we could best serve the inner-city trips with improved surface transit. I've come up with a rough-and-dirty map which shows how I imagine this working:



In red, we have our metro lines, including eventual Gatineau lines over the Alexandra Bridge. These are frequent lines which are mostly aimed at longer distance trips (>5km).

In yellow, we have surface transit. These are frequent trunk lines which are intended for trips under 5km (Say, Lansdowne to Chinatown, Vanier to Downtown, etc.). They'd likely be bus-based to start, but if ridership on one line or another becomes too high to service with buses, it could accommodate both bus and surface LRT/streetcar. This trunk can also accommodate other regular bus lines (like those from Somerset, Elgin, Beechwood, etc.).

In darker yellow, we have dedicated transit lanes (on the Portage Bridge) and transit only streets:
- Queen Street: With some short exceptions for parking access (like 240 Sparks), traffic is restricted to transit and delivery vehicles
- Rideau Street to Dalhousie: Similarly to today, only transit vehicles can use it. This opens a lot of space for pedestrian circulation, and for patios and store displays to spill into the street.
- Bank St north of Laurier
- Bay St north of Queen, allowing for STO buses to get to and from the Portage Bridge.
In lighter yellow, we have transit-priority streets. These are streets which limit car through-traffic with a combination of either peak hour or permanent turn restrictions, forced turns, and deviations. For example, the Cummings Bridge might be made transit-only at peak hours, which keeps Montreal Rd and Rideau from getting clogged with vehicles headed east from Downtown. This ensures greater speed and reliability for transit vehicles as well as local access.
- Bank St north of Billings. South of Billings, the street is wide enough for dedicated transit lanes and car lanes.
- Rideau/Montreal west of St-Laurent.

The result would be an intermediate step between metro and local bus which manges to serve Ottawa's urban neighbourhoods. As many people have pointed out, the Confederation Line isn't particularly useful for a great number of urban trips. Worse still, with the system redesign, many people might be forced to make a transfer from their bus to LRT for one station before transferring to yet another bus. A downtown surface transit trunk would allow for better local service, avoid unnecessary LRT transfers, and has the potential to relieve parts of the Confederation Line.


_____________


A special note on the whole Rideau/Elgin/Sussex mess. I quickly drew up an idea of what this could look like to accommodate a transit corridor. In red, I have the transit trunk.
- All car traffic would be placed west of the War Memorial
- The transit lanes would run to the east of the Memorial with a station on the Plaza Bridge (which I called Canal), right above the Gatineau LRT terminus.
- A simplified Mackenzie/Sussex/Rideau intersection would allow for the elimination of the horrible pedestrian underpass, replacing it with a building to reduce the gap between the Market/Rideau/Lowertown and Downtown.
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Last edited by Aylmer; Nov 29, 2018 at 7:02 PM.
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  #354  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2019, 3:30 PM
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So complicated!
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  #355  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2019, 5:35 PM
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So complicated!
How so? Seems simple to me. Simpler than what they are currently doing with every bus route using a different route to get between Rideau and Parliament.

They do need to fix Queen though to make it more efficient for buses.
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  #356  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2019, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
How so? Seems simple to me. Simpler than what they are currently doing with every bus route using a different route to get between Rideau and Parliament.

They do need to fix Queen though to make it more efficient for buses.
And for passengers.

Say you are leaving your office in World Exchange to take the bus to Whatever Hartmans Is Called Now.

You can go wait at Queen Street for a 6 or 7. Or you can go wait wherever the 11 stops, which isn't on the westbound stops on Queen. There is nowhere to wait for all three buses. You have a forced choice that didn't use to exist.

At the end of the day, you leave your office for your home off Beechwood Avenue. You can go to one of the Queen eastbound stops for a 7, or maybe a 6. Or you can go to Slater and grab a 19. You can't wait for all three at the same stop.

Or you are heading to the east end of Rideau. You can wait at one stop on Queen for an 18. Or you can go to the opposite side of the street to catch the 12, which for some reason known only unto God and Manconi, travels west first, in order to go east. Again, you have to pick one or the other.

This stupidity results in longer effective wait times for passengers. It's total stupidity that could only be dreamed up by the drivers who run OC Transpo.

And that's not even considering the further stupidity of the 11 not continuing east to the Rideau Centre, or the 12 not continuing west to Bank.
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  #357  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 3:53 PM
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Future Transit System Ideas - Ottawa/Gatineau | Fantasy

With multiple people planning a Bank Street O-Train tunnel from Billings Bridge to Parliament Station now is the time to seriously start talking about Montreal Road & Rideau Streeet O-Train line which would run from Montreal Station right through to Rideau. This would give proper access to all of Ottawa's major centres via rail and help drive development on Montreal Road
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  #358  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by The Conductor View Post
With multiple people planning a Bank Street O-Train tunnel from Billings Bridge to Parliament Station now is the time to seriously start talking about Montreal Road & Rideau Streeet O-Train line which would run from Montreal Station right through to Rideau. This would give proper access to all of Ottawa's major centres via rail and help drive development on Montreal Road
Tunnel the Bank Street Subway, the Carling Avenue Subway, the Montreal Road Subway and the Kanata North Subway using The Boring Company at USD $10M per mile. Imagine the benefit to the high tech sector of being leading edge in transportation.
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  #359  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 7:52 PM
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The Rideau/Montreal Rd corridor is a high traffic which really needs an O-Train line
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  #360  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by The Conductor View Post
The Rideau/Montreal Rd corridor is a high traffic which really needs an O-Train line
I agree. On the O-Train Fans Forum, there is someone drawing up designs for a Line 3 that would incorporate the Carling LRT, the Bank Street Subway and the Rideau/Montreal option, except that they end the line at St Laurent, not Montreal Road.
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