Future Transit System Ideas - Ottawa/Gatineau | Fantasy

[Beedok]

Did I post my rough idea for how to make the Carling LRT line better, while also serving the core? You’d have to close the QED, but that seems a fair enough trade. It’s closed so often these days anyhow. Elgin portion would be a surface line still, though the connection to Rideau could plausibly be tunnelled?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Did I post my rough idea for how to make the Carling LRT line better, while also serving the core? You’d have to close the QED, but that seems a fair enough trade. It’s closed so often these days anyhow. Elgin portion would be a surface line still, though the connection to Rideau could plausibly be tunnelled?

I think that route is interesting because of the coverage it provides and the link to Lansdowne , but it wouldn't be politically feasible to run a line along Dow's Lake and up the canal on the QED. It might be more palatable on the Colonel By side, but I don't see how you go from Carling to the other side of the Canal.

What about running it up through the Booth St. complex, which gives you lots of TOD potential with the full redevelopment going on, and then turning west just south of the highway and using the Chamberlain-Isabella right of way, which has lots of room? There would be some complications between Booth and Bronson, but I can't see it being insurmountable.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think that route is interesting because of the coverage it provides and the link to Lansdowne , but it wouldn't be politically feasible to run a line along Dow's Lake and up the canal on the QED. It might be more palatable on the Colonel By side, but I don't see how you go from Carling to the other side of the Canal.

What about running it up through the Booth St. complex, which gives you lots of TOD potential with the full redevelopment going on, and then turning west just south of the highway and using the Chamberlain-Isabella right of way, which has lots of room? There would be some complications between Booth and Bronson, but I can't see it being insurmountable.

Part of what I was thinking was better transit for Old Ottawa East, with the bridges, since they’re otherwise pretty isolated. And I had figured the QED, being closed so often, was the easiest street to sacrifice to LRT. I suppose people get weirdly defensive about LRT running near them, instead of roads. Despite the trains being less frequent and cleaner...

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I will make my fantasy really simple. To sum it up.

I don't think any more grade separated rail is needed beyond Stage 2 for the next 30 years. But I guess we'll build out to Barrhaven, Kanata and Stittsville to help them out with some transit induced sprawl.

All I want are curbside bus lanes with transit priority on every major avenue. All of them. Greenbank, Woodroffe, Merivale, Bank, Conroy, St-Laurent, Hunt Club, Walkley, Heron, Baseline, Montreal, Somerset-Wellington-Richmond, Gladstone, Carling, Castlefrank-Kanata, Stittsville Main, etc. There's probably a few in there I forgot. Start at the lowest level in Google maps. Zoom out nine times. If you still see a thick white line, that corridor should have painted curbside bus lanes, transit priority, protected bus shelters and stops before the light.

We need to stop making bus riders wait in traffic in this town. And giving buses priority, along with bolstering frequencies is what will actually foster transit ridership and gain share from the car in this town. Building more expensive downtown focused LRTs that most folks are only going to use for their commute, isn't going to change car dependency. It's just going to perpetuate the idea that transit is for commuters. It's not a replacement for a car.

I agree on a lot of those, notably Woodroffe, Greenbank, Merivale, Conroy, St-Laurent, Hunt Club, Walkley, Heron, Baseline, Carling and Castlefrank-Kanata.

Bank, I've made my case on the light-metro. If that were ever to happen, bus lanes or BRT-lite could be built between the southern point of the Bank Line at South Keys/Hunt Club down to Lester.

Montreal, I would want to see the proposed bus priority measures built within 5 years, not the City's 20 year timeline.

Somerset-Wellington-Richmond, my argument is similar to Bank. One of few full east-west corridors. Traditional main street with on street parking (and no massive underground garages to make up for the lost parking). The corridor is also served by rapid transit with the Confederation Line.

Same train of though for Stittsville Main, traditional main street, rapid transit corridor relatively close. I would build east-west bus lanes along Hazeldean and Fernbank to better connect to that already proposed transit corridor. I might do so at Abbott also.

Gladstone, is a tough one. It's already quite narrow for much of its length. It might better benefit from wider sidewalks and bike lanes.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Did I post my rough idea for how to make the Carling LRT line better, while also serving the core? You’d have to close the QED, but that seems a fair enough trade. It’s closed so often these days anyhow. Elgin portion would be a surface line still, though the connection to Rideau could plausibly be tunnelled?

As I proposed a few pages back, I would be more inclined to bring the Carling streetcar up Bronson and end at Lyon station, either on Sparks or Queen to better connect with Confed and the STO tram. However, looping around QED or Colonel By also has a lot of merit.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Part of what I was thinking was better transit for Old Ottawa East, with the bridges, since they’re otherwise pretty isolated. And I had figured the QED, being closed so often, was the easiest street to sacrifice to LRT. I suppose people get weirdly defensive about LRT running near them, instead of roads. Despite the trains being less frequent and cleaner...

I always wondered if it's possible/feasible for a Carling line to tunnel under the Glebe and Old Ottawa East and end at Hurdman. So you'd have stops east of the current Trillium line at Bronson, Bank (at Glebe), Old Ottawa East (at Main), and Hurdman in a relatively straight line. You'd be four/five rail stops and one transfer from the Rideau if you live in the Glebe or Old Ottawa East. I'm far from a transit expert like most here and this is obviously fantasy but it's fun to think about.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Part of what I was thinking was better transit for Old Ottawa East, with the bridges, since they’re otherwise pretty isolated. And I had figured the QED, being closed so often, was the easiest street to sacrifice to LRT. I suppose people get weirdly defensive about LRT running near them, instead of roads. Despite the trains being less frequent and cleaner...

That's a good point. I'd kind of missed the Old Ottawa East link, but it's true that OOE is quite isolated from a transportation perspective. I'm not sure a QED route actually does a great job for OOE, as it would only be accessible at Clegg and would still be a long walk for most, including the higher density areas near Immaculata. An access at Elgin and Isabella isn't great, but it probably does as good a job of serving Immaculata and the new condos and apartments on the north end of Main

What I liked about your proposal is that it actually served some of the heavily populated central areas in the Glebe and Centretown, rather than going around them, as is the case at the moment.

With respect to QED, the problem isn't the LRT on a street as much as tracks through such a long stretch of greenspace that is pretty heavily used. It would have the effect of cutting off the canal and Dow's Lake from the neighbourhoods, which I think is likely a non-starter. Colonel By doesn't really run through parks, so I'd see it as an easier sell, if a worse route.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

I always wondered if it's possible/feasible for a Carling line to tunnel under the Glebe and Old Ottawa East and end at Hurdman. So you'd have stops east of the current Trillium line at Bronson, Bank (at Glebe), Old Ottawa East (at Main), and Hurdman in a relatively straight line. You'd be four/five rail stops and one transfer from the Rideau if you live in the Glebe or Old Ottawa East. I'm far from a transit expert like most here and this is obviously fantasy but it's fun to think about.

I'm no expert either, but I'm not sure that is a route that matches where people tend to want to go. I can't see people from the Glebe heading out to Hurdman to transfer to go downtown. If we want to serve those areas, it really needs to be a direct link downtown.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

There's a communication issue here. You are comparing my Ottawa proposal of a Canada Line type light-metro with a mix of underground and elevated portions with the deep level underground mega subway of Scarborough. Ergo, from where I'm standing, you're saying that the Scarborough mega subway, the Canada Line and Confederation are the same thing.

It's not miscommunication. He's made up your position for you in his head and argues on that basis, despite what you say. There's a superiority complex at play, and it's the reason why we can have civil discussions with other forum members on disagreements, while it often devolves into strawman and bad faith arguments with him.

It's not to say he doesn't have valid points, he does. It's just hard to discuss points of contention without finding yourself having to continuously repeat and clarify your points and position, often futilely.

That's how it seems to me at least. I won't speak for others. Feels like we're all amateurs to him who have no idea what we're talking about.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

It's not miscommunication. He's made up your position for you in his head and argues on that basis, despite what you say. There's a superiority complex at play, and it's the reason why we can have civil discussions with other forum members on disagreements, while it often devolves into strawman and bad faith arguments with him.

It's not to say he doesn't have valid points, he does. It's just hard to discuss points of contention without finding yourself having to continuously repeat and clarify your points and position, often futilely.

That's how it seems to me at least. I won't speak for others. Feels like we're all amateurs to him who have no idea what we're talking about.

That's how I see it as well...

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

I always wondered if it's possible/feasible for a Carling line to tunnel under the Glebe and Old Ottawa East and end at Hurdman. So you'd have stops east of the current Trillium line at Bronson, Bank (at Glebe), Old Ottawa East (at Main), and Hurdman in a relatively straight line. You'd be four/five rail stops and one transfer from the Rideau if you live in the Glebe or Old Ottawa East. I'm far from a transit expert like most here and this is obviously fantasy but it's fun to think about.

Another interesting point for Carling. That would bring those in the old west end closer to Lansdowne, bring transit to Main, arguably the least accessible of our urban Main Streets and connect to Line 1 at Hurdman.

As per Phil's comment, I don't think a lot of people would transfer at Hurdman to go downtown, but it would make the General Hospital campus and destinations between Hurdman and Blair (VIA, Coventry stadium, Federal jobs, inter-city buses) more accessible for a large portion of the pop.

Plenty of options to extend the Carling streetcar past Bronson.

EDIT: with the Hurdman option, we could extend it further to reach the General campus using the Hospital link, connecting it to the Royal and Civic.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

It's not miscommunication. He's made up your position for you in his head and argues on that basis, despite what you say. There's a superiority complex at play, and it's the reason why we can have civil discussions with other forum members on disagreements, while it often devolves into strawman and bad faith arguments with him.

It's not to say he doesn't have valid points, he does. It's just hard to discuss points of contention without finding yourself having to continuously repeat and clarify your points and position, often futilely.

That's how it seems to me at least. I won't speak for others. Feels like we're all amateurs to him who have no idea what we're talking about.

Funny. I see the same thing about the Bank St subway cult. There's never any rationale that won't lead to a Bank St. subway.

It's also broadly a gadgetbahn metro cult. It's not a concern for good transit. It's a belief that every transit need can be solved by spending billions on some higher order of transit. Apparently, if we do enough of that we'll end up just like London, Paris and New York....

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Another interesting point for Carling. That would bring those in the old west end closer to Lansdowne, bring transit to Main, arguably the least accessible of our urban Main Streets and connect to Line 1 at Hurdman.

As per Phil's comment, I don't think a lot of people would transfer at Hurdman to go downtown, but it would make the General Hospital campus and destinations between Hurdman and Blair (VIA, Coventry stadium, Federal jobs, inter-city buses) more accessible for a large portion of the pop.

Plenty of options to extend the Carling streetcar past Bronson.

You're both right, it probably wouldn't be used to get to the market/downtown but like you said it would better link fairly disconnected neighborhoods to critical institutions, recreational areas and amenities in a fairly straightforward way (new Civic and Little Italy, Dows Lake, Ottawa U, plus all the ones you mention). And given the frequencies on the confed line, it would be really quick to get to the market/downtown for people in Old Ottawa East and Glebe if they're open to a transfer. The option is there anyways. I think Ottawa is slowly becoming more polycentric so a grid of connections seems like something worth considering.

[Hybrid247]

Yup, we're all a bunch of car-worshipping, subway-loving cultists who don't put any thought into anything beyond drawing cool-looking lines on a map. You've got it all figured out

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Another interesting point for Carling. That would bring those in the old west end closer to Lansdowne, bring transit to Main, arguably the least accessible of our urban Main Streets and connect to Line 1 at Hurdman.

As per Phil's comment, I don't think a lot of people would transfer at Hurdman to go downtown, but it would make the General Hospital campus and destinations between Hurdman and Blair (VIA, Coventry stadium, Federal jobs, inter-city buses) more accessible for a large portion of the pop.

Plenty of options to extend the Carling streetcar past Bronson.

EDIT: with the Hurdman option, we could extend it further to reach the General campus using the Hospital link, connecting it to the Royal and Civic.

This kind of cross-country route is one which tunnels are uniquely well-suited for. No, there's not a lot of demand for this kind of route, but it's likely because there's no infrastructure - transit or otherwise - which allows for it. Currently, a trip from the Train Station to Lansdowne or Main is a 25-35 minute trek at best. A tunnel, even including the connection, walking, and waiting time, would cut that down almost by half. That's competitive with driving (13) and cycling (17).

I'm often skeptical of the value of underground transit when it follows routes which could be better served by adequate surface priority (like under an existing street). But there are many places where it can create brand new and highly competitive links by breaking free of the grid.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Yup, we're all a bunch of car-worshipping, subway-loving cultists who don't put any thought into anything beyond drawing cool-looking lines on a map. You've got it all figured out

If the shoe fits....

Mostly, this reminds me of the subway vs. LRT debates in Toronto. A lot of people who are used to subways and can never imagine anything else. So they'll throw every excuse against the wall for why subways should be built instead of LRT at 2-3x the cost and often half the coverage.

I see many of the same arguments here. I accept that you don't think you're arguing for car dependency. But the net effect of these ideas certainly leads there.

But hey. I guess it's good to dream on how to blow billions with coloured lines on a map that won't happen for decades, if ever. Beats actually talking about shit that improved transit.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

I always wondered if it's possible/feasible for a Carling line to tunnel under the Glebe and Old Ottawa East and end at Hurdman. So you'd have stops east of the current Trillium line at Bronson, Bank (at Glebe), Old Ottawa East (at Main), and Hurdman in a relatively straight line. You'd be four/five rail stops and one transfer from the Rideau if you live in the Glebe or Old Ottawa East. I'm far from a transit expert like most here and this is obviously fantasy but it's fun to think about.

Anything is possible. It's just a matter of cost and return. It's not like a lot of old cities elsewhere have grids under which they can build linear subways. They do build cross-country alignments. Heck, I remember one of the very first Confederation Line proposals was a cross-country alignment that was eventually ruled out.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Anything is possible. It's just a matter of cost and return. It's not like a lot of old cities elsewhere have grids under which they can build linear subways. They do build cross-country alignments. Heck, I remember one of the very first Confederation Line proposals was a cross-country alignment that was eventually ruled out.

Yeah, when I say possible, I mean it in the sense of providing some decent ROI. The Glebe would never see the kind of density required and old Ottawa east, probably similar (though maybe with a bit more potential than the Glebe). It would hinge more on Hurdman and the Carling corridor (around Preston and east of Preston) adding significant density, which I think is possible.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If the shoe fits....

It doesn't, though. You can go back on this very thread and see that I discuss surface rail options for other major arterials with others members, which all manage to remain civil (amazing, right?). I've even admitted to J.OT13 that I was warming up to the idea of surface rail on Wellington because we spoke in depth about the finer points.

You can see in the Canada thread that I think Bank should be improved for better pedestrian and bus service through streetscaping elements that de-incentivize through-traffic and that give buses more priority, such as queue-jumping lanes at major intersections.

The Bank subway is an idea that stems from the Bayview capacity conundrum that will inevitably occur in the distant future. If we double track Trillium and start seeing upwards of 3000-4000 peak hour transfers in 20+ years from now, we might be looking at more than 18,000 EB trips during peak.

We can either extend platforms and trains to buy us some time at that point, or look at alternatives. I happen to like the light metro idea for Bank (which is a mode that is well-suited for 7500+ pphpd) because it brings high quality transit to a relatively urban corridor with major attractions, and potentially provides direct RT transit to downtown from the airport and the growing southern communities. And I don't think a second light metro line in a city that will likely be close to 2 Million people by then (including Gatineau) is such an absurd idea.

It's not the only option, it's just the one that I think brings a lot of benefits and one that I prefer. You don't have to like it. That's fine. But it's absurd to say that that makes me someone who worships car usage and thinks that building subways is the solution to everything. Or that I'm some dude who just likes drawing lines on maps.

As Aylmer told you, there are ways to discuss these things in more constructive ways. We're all adults here, at least I think we are.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

As Aylmer told you, there are ways to discuss these things in more constructive ways. We're all adults here, at least I think we are.

I don't know if this quote right here was exactly what I was getting at either, mind you.