NHL Season - 2016/2017 - Page 28

Nicko999 · #**541** Posted **Dec 21, 2016, 6:50 PM**

Jagr what a legend... 2nd all-time in pts in 100 fewer games than Messier. He has 19 pts in 33 games this year at the age of 44. On pace for 47 pts.

Next step is 1900 later this season (hopefully). Ultimate goal is 2000 pts.

JHikka · #**542** Posted **Dec 21, 2016, 7:15 PM**

The fact that Messier is that high on the all-time list shows how much of a shit show the 80s were for scoring. Jagr is a far more important player in a historical sense than Messier ever will be.

HomeInMyShoes · #**543** Posted **Dec 21, 2016, 7:26 PM**

^A lot of Messier's legacy was his leadership. His scoring was good but he'd be on my first ballot hall of fame list with half the points. Jagr is just Jagr. Unbelievable for the game. He and Selanne have been unbelievable ambassadors of the game. Been a joy to watch the last twenty years of hockey really.

Jaws · #**544** Posted **Dec 21, 2016, 10:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

^A lot of Messier's legacy was his leadership. His scoring was good but he'd be on my first ballot hall of fame list with half the points. Jagr is just Jagr. Unbelievable for the game. He and Selanne have been unbelievable ambassadors of the game. Been a joy to watch the last twenty years of hockey really.

Yes, and the fact that he lead the '90 Oilers to the cup after Gretzky had left and brought the '94 Rangers the cup after a 54 year drought. It's about Messier's leadership, determination and physical play. How many power forwards had his durability? None. From a historical context Messier > Jagr

JHikka · #**545** Posted **Dec 22, 2016, 12:53 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws

Yes, and the fact that he lead the '90 Oilers to the cup after Gretzky had left and brought the '94 Rangers the cup after a 54 year drought. It's about Messier's leadership, determination and physical play. How many power forwards had his durability? None. From a historical context Messier > Jagr

Durability? Jagr's turning 45 in February. Messier playing until 43 was impressive but he was nowhere near as physically strong at the end of his career as Jagr still is. He was also doing that in a time when many were still playing in the NHL until 40. Messier was also a minus player during his tenure with Vancouver and second stint in New York.

I'm not doubting Messier's leadership - i'm saying he never should have been 2nd all-time in scoring and only was because of inflated 1980s scoring and having the benefit of playing with Gretzky and a high-flying Oilers team during that time for most of it. Jagr scored 66 points at the age of 43 when the NHL is trending towards youth and speed and skill - things that weren't entirely important for half of Messier's career.

Jaws · #**546** Posted **Dec 22, 2016, 2:31 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHikka

Durability? Jagr's turning 45 in February. Messier playing until 43 was impressive but he was nowhere near as physically strong at the end of his career as Jagr still is. He was also doing that in a time when many were still playing in the NHL until 40. Messier was also a minus player during his tenure with Vancouver and second stint in New York.

I'm not doubting Messier's leadership - i'm saying he never should have been 2nd all-time in scoring and only was because of inflated 1980s scoring and having the benefit of playing with Gretzky and a high-flying Oilers team during that time for most of it. Jagr scored 66 points at the age of 43 when the NHL is trending towards youth and speed and skill - things that weren't entirely important for half of Messier's career.

Jagr won two cups and in both instances he wasn't the best player on his own team. Messier won 6, and with 2 of them no one name Gretzky or Lemieux was around. Durability in as far as the type of game Messier played vs Jagr's game. Jagr uses his size effectively to shield the puck and gain position but he's doesn't fit the classic definition of the power forward. Jagr is an incredibly skilled player and deserves to squeak in to the top 10 players ever but i don't associate winning with him like I do with oother players like Gretzky, Messier, Yzerman, Crosby, Sakic, Howe, Richard......

Antigonish · #**547** Posted **Dec 22, 2016, 6:12 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws

Jagr won two cups and in both instances he wasn't the best player on his own team. Messier won 6, and with 2 of them no one name Gretzky or Lemieux was around. Durability in as far as the type of game Messier played vs Jagr's game. Jagr uses his size effectively to shield the puck and gain position but he's doesn't fit the classic definition of the power forward. Jagr is an incredibly skilled player and deserves to squeak in to the top 10 players ever but i don't associate winning with him like I do with oother players like Gretzky, Messier, Yzerman, Crosby, Sakic, Howe, Richard......

Jagr won 5 Art Ross trophies, including 4 in a row during the dead-ice era. He may not have been the likable leader that Stevie Y or Sakic was but he is a better offensive player than they were, and that's what matters in the history books. He also played 3 seasons in the KHL from 2008-11 when he was still a decent point producer and could have had an extra ~120-150 points extra on his career totals already.

JHikka · #**548** Posted **Dec 22, 2016, 2:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws

Jagr won two cups and in both instances he wasn't the best player on his own team. Messier won 6, and with 2 of them no one name Gretzky or Lemieux was around.

Winning cups =/= good player. Lots of bad players have Cup rings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws

Durability in as far as the type of game Messier played vs Jagr's game. Jagr uses his size effectively to shield the puck and gain position but he's doesn't fit the classic definition of the power forward.

Right, but Jagr is currently doing this during a faster and younger era than Messier was during his. There are far fewer players Jagr's age still playing than there was when Messier was nearing the end of his career. And Jagr's a plus player doing it at the end of his career unlike Messier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaws

Jagr is an incredibly skilled player and deserves to squeak in to the top 10 players ever but i don't associate winning with him like I do with oother players like Gretzky, Messier, Yzerman, Crosby, Sakic, Howe, Richard......

There's a really big difference between being good and winning, though, which I think you're conflating. Two players who I think are two of the greatest players of all time (Bure & Lindros) never won cups, let alone the legions of other players that never won. Hasek's the greatest goalie of all-time but he didn't win as much as Roy or Brodeur because he was stuck on awful teams. It's a team sport after all, and we're comparing individuals and not the teams they were on.

It's impossible to measure the age-old Canadian value of intangibles and leadership, which is fine, but I think they get extremely overrated in many circumstances. There's so much more to this discussion than merely leading and winning. On raw talent and skill and ability i'd take Jagr any day over Messier.

Denscity · #**549** Posted **Dec 22, 2016, 6:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicko999

Jagr what a legend... 2nd all-time in pts in 100 fewer games than Messier. He has 19 pts in 33 games this year at the age of 44. On pace for 47 pts.

Next step is 1900 later this season (hopefully). Ultimate goal is 2000 pts.

Yes indeed! Props to JJ unreal career!!

Calgarian · #**550** Posted **Dec 22, 2016, 7:09 PM**

Hopefully Jagr can play another year or two! Crazyto think he came into the league in 1990!

Denscity · #**551** Posted **Dec 22, 2016, 9:54 PM**

Canadian Standings before Dec 22nd's games:

Rank Team GP Points

5 Montreal 32 46
10 Ottawa 33 41
12 Edmonton 35 41
15 Calgary 35 36
22 Winnipeg 35 33
25 Toronto 31 31
27 Vancouver 33 31

Nicko999 · #**552** Posted **Dec 23, 2016, 3:53 AM**

We needed Price to step up with half the team missing but instead he cost us 2 pts. Awful game by him. It was his chance to show Dubnyk who the Vezina favorite is but sadly, he failed miserably. Habs played a great game but Price lost us the game.

mintzilla · #**553** Posted **Dec 28, 2016, 7:06 AM**

Why does it feel like the flames have the easiest schedule of all time?

Coldrsx · #**554** Posted **Dec 28, 2016, 6:22 PM**

The name that always surprises me on that list is Francis. What a warrior.

J.OT13 · #**555** Posted **Dec 30, 2016, 2:58 AM**

Daniel Alfredsson's number 11 was tonight the first jersey retired from the modern day Senators.

The first jersey retired was Frank Finnigan's number 8. he played for the original Senators between 1923 and 1933. He won a Stanley Cup with Ottawa 27' and scored the last goal in the history of the original Senators.

He was instrumental in the effort to bring back NHL hockey to the capital. He passed away in December 25, 1991. His jersey was retired at the opening ceremony of the modern Senators first game on October 8, 1992.

https://twitter.com/senators

speedog · #**556** Posted **Dec 30, 2016, 4:43 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mintzilla

Why does it feel like the flames have the easiest schedule of all time?

And why do you feel that?

Coldrsx · #**557** Posted **Dec 30, 2016, 5:10 AM**

Ok win by the Oil tonight, but many mistakes in their own end.

theman23 · #**558** Posted **Dec 30, 2016, 10:09 PM**

Not much to dislike about this Leafs team right now. Well, if only they could learn how to hold onto leads. But I love this group!

Barnes · #**559** Posted **Dec 30, 2016, 11:23 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by speedog

And why do you feel that?

Especially since the Oilers play a team on the second game of a back to back while rested 19 times this year.

rrskylar · #**560** Posted **Dec 31, 2016, 4:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by theman23

Not much to dislike about this Leafs team right now. Well, if only they could learn how to hold onto leads. But I love this group!

Leaf's getting good goaltending now and winning, look to have a great future with their talent.

Thought our Laine was a lock for the Calder but with Matthews coming on real strong it's going down to the final game!