Canadian University Thread

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The article about Queens notes that 54% of the budget goes to salaries. Larger classes are an obvious first response.

The administrative cost breakdown is important, and the cost of professors' salaries is not the same as the cost of educating undergrads as professors do other work too. This Reddit post provides some context:

https://www.reddit.com/r/queensunive...ers_on_queens/

Queen’s spends $2153 per-student on upper administrative salaries. For McMaster, the number is $1689 per student. For Western, the number is $1276.

These aren't huge numbers but undergrad tuition for Canadians is relatively modest/affordable (and it would be good to keep it that way). Do undergrads at Queen's get good value from these administrative costs? How much of that money actually goes to essential administrative functions for undergraduate education?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think in Canada we have that to much extent at the undergraduate level.

We arguably have a better system overall and keeping costs down while expanding broadly accessible quality public institutions is a much better strategy than creating symbolic carve-outs for a lucky few at ultra-high-end institutions. Achieving this implies running the schools efficiently and not implementing US-style bloated administrations.

[theman23]

That admin cost difference between Queens and UWO amounts to about $30 million per year, about half or 2/3 of their stated budget deficit (the provost seems to be dithering between the number of 48 million and 60 million).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by someone123

The administrative cost breakdown is important, and the cost of professors' salaries is not the same as the cost of educating undergrads as professors do other work too. This Reddit post provides some context:

https://www.reddit.com/r/queensunive...ers_on_queens/

Queen’s spends $2153 per-student on upper administrative salaries. For McMaster, the number is $1689 per student. For Western, the number is $1276.

These aren't huge numbers but undergrad tuition for Canadians is relatively modest/affordable (and it would be good to keep it that way). Do undergrads at Queen's get good value from these administrative costs? How much of that money actually goes to essential administrative functions for undergraduate education?

I know this post is focused on the comparative numbers especially as if Queens had the numbers of it's competitors it would wipe out the deficit but even the Western number is kind of scandalous. It's not only upper level administrators that are the problem though get rid of them and you don't their support staff either.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by thewave46

The writing’s been on the wall for secondary universities for awhile, at least in Ontario.

The last wave of students to hit them was years ago. Their value proposition declines as they churned out degrees of questionable value and let standards slide.

The last gasps for a lot of post-secondary education was in international students. Even then, the value of a Canadian education outside our prestigious institutions was in decline. If one just wants the back door into the country, Ontario colleges provided the way cheaper and quicker. Until that was revealed to be a scam.

I suspect the more prestigious schools will be fine, but relative oversupply of institutions to the demand is going to lead to hard choices.

I've been reading a lot of chatter elsewhere about some Ontario colleges being blacklisted by employers because of how much the quality of graduates have dropped in recent years. The one that keeps coming up is Conestoga College in Kitchener.

[theman23]

Conestoga has been one of the worst exploiters of international students. The numbers are so large that new international students arriving at Conestoga alone resulted in a 5% annual population growth for the entire K-W region in 2023.

[niwell]

I feel sorry for anyone who went to Conestoga College even 5 years ago. It was totally fine up until recently.

RE: Queen's - I've heard from friends who work in academia (admin/research side) that there are some pretty massive issues with how that university is run. Including treatment of employees. Not sure if MolsonEx has heard similar through his contacts.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

'Deficit is an acute problem': Queen's University eyes drastic cutbacks, addresses students


Queen’s University eyes drastic cutbacks to keep its doors open

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but I will now "enjoy" razzing my friends with Queens MBA's who continually crow about it being a "top business school in the world", that perhaps the school should focus more on "local" concerns rather than chase the next "Top 100" ranking.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by theman23

That admin cost difference between Queens and UWO amounts to about $30 million per year, about half or 2/3 of their stated budget deficit (the provost seems to be dithering between the number of 48 million and 60 million).

I'm not sure if it's dithering, and you have to take the numbers in the article with a huge grain of salt, but from the article is appears to state that the overall deficit situation improved from 60 to 48M (a net positive of 12M) HOWEVER the deficit for the FAS increased to 37M.

Again, the article is likely poorly written from a numbers perspective, but this would almost seem to imply that the overall deficit is due to the FAS deficit (40 vs 37). While I find that hard to believe, lines like this certainly give it some credibility ...

This comes after the Queen's Journal -- the main student-run newspaper at Queen's University -- reported leaked documents showing some courses in the faculty of arts and sciences with less than 10 students will be cut.

Namely this quote appears to imply that there is a significant number of these small classes, at least enough that their cancellation would impact bottom line numbers. Given all the discussions about large class sizes, why would the university encourage FAS to have so many niche classes that their existence would impact its financials?

[acottawa]

Just speculation, but they offer a lot of degree programs for a medium-sized university. I suspect the more obscure ones get pretty small classes.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Somewhat tongue in cheek, but I will now "enjoy" razzing my friends with Queens MBA's who continually crow about it being a "top business school in the world", that perhaps the school should focus more on "local" concerns rather than chase the next "Top 100" ranking.

Business school grads are often insufferable with their smug boosterism. I've encountered Queen's MBA-style bragging, but you ain't seen nothin' until you've come across a few IVEY MBA grads (Western). Enormous egos.

-I say this as a 3-time Business School grad myself.

The unhealthy obsession with rankings is a sign of deep rot at the top. IVEY is shooting to be ranked among the top-5 IN THE WORLD.

I was not aware of the huge discrepancy in overhead admin costs per student (Queen's vs. UWO, two universities with similar stature, albeit not size as UWO is much larger). I work a lot with senior admin, and it seems to be that they are all very busy people doing important work. There may be a lot of inefficient bureaucracy that comes in at the lower-level admin, but budgeting has been BRUTAL for nearly a decade, and before that we only had 2 good years because we were stuck in the nearly endless 'austerity' budgets that came out of the 2009 financial crisis and its aftermath.

[urbandreamer]

Bill Ackman, perhaps inspired by John Tibbits, wants to turn Harvard into a business, like Conestoga College, albeit at a much higher price point. What an idiot.

[SteelTown]

Surplus budget shows McMaster University is 'weathering the storm' as nearly half of Ontario's universities run deficits
McMaster University is reporting a projected millions of dollars in surplus

https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilto...um=Recommended

Nearly half of Ontario's universities are running deficits, but McMaster University isn't one of them.

The west Hamilton institution projected millions in surplus in its 2022-23 budget, and anticipates it will be in a similar position this year.

“We take very seriously supporting those important activities like research and teaching and student experience,” provost Susan Tighe said in an interview. “But, we've been fairly careful, I would say. That's pretty clear.”

At least 10 of the provinces 23 publicly supported universities are projecting budget deficits, a situation Council of Ontario Universities president Steve Orsini has urged the province to address, The Star reported.

The Ford government slashed tuition fees by 10 per cent in 2019 and has since frozen them for domestic students. At the same time, provincial grants have dropped by about 30 per cent since 2006-07. Local institutions have warned the multi-year tuition freeze, coupled with inflation and wage increases, has posed significant financial strain.

.....blah blah blah

Revenue from undergraduate international student tuition fees has more than doubled in recent years, from $84 million in 2018-19 to $184 in 2022-23. Enrolment in the same group has increased from 2,815 students in 2018-19 to 4,604 in 2022-23.

In fact, the university is offsetting the cost of accepting about 3,000 domestic undergraduate students above its government-funded enrolment through “extra money” from international student tuition, said McMaster president David Farrar.

“Those are the kinds of decisions that we made to try and do the best we can in terms of providing a great learning environment for our students and our research environment, and yet keep our budget balanced,” he said.

[SteelTown]

Now that the Feds have capped international students, which was subsidizing non-international students (in fact, Mac accepted 3,000 domestic students because of this), the pressure for Ford to increase tuition fees is deafening. If that doesn't happen, oh boy, we're in trouble.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Now that the Feds have capped international students, which was subsidizing non-international students (in fact, Mac accepted 3,000 domestic students because of this), the pressure for Ford to increase tuition fees is deafening. If that doesn't happen, oh boy, we're in trouble.

Will universities even be affected? It seems the career colleges will be most impacted.

[1overcosc]

Maybe it would be better for the country if some of our universities and colleges folded. We have a serious problem with credential inflation and arguably have too many people with more education than they really need.

[Docere]

FWIW Canada has the highest percentage of the population with post-secondary educations of any OECD country.

Interestingly Canada's percentage with a bachelor's degree or higher is pretty much average. Where Canada is a real outlier is the high percentage with "short-cycle tertiary education" (i.e. what Canadians call "college").

https://www.oecd.org/education/educa...019_CN_CAN.pdf

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Docere

FWIW Canada has the highest percentage of the population with post-secondary educations of any OECD country.

Interestingly Canada's percentage with a bachelor's degree or higher is pretty much average. Where Canada is a real outlier is the high percentage with "short-cycle tertiary education" (i.e. what Canadians call "college").

https://www.oecd.org/education/educa...019_CN_CAN.pdf

I don't think that's a 1:1 equivalence. My college diploma program was 3 years. Some are 4.

[Docere]

University degree, 25 years and over

Canada 29.3%

Newfoundland and Labrador 17.8%
Prince Edward Island 24.2%
Nova Scotia 26.2%
New Brunswick 20.5%
Quebec 25.9%
Ontario 32.8%
Manitoba 26%
Saskatchewan 23%
Alberta 28.7%
British Columbia 31.4%

And for the 10 largest CMAs:

Toronto 41.8%
Montreal 32.5%
Vancouver 39%
Ottawa 40.5%
Calgary 38.5%
Edmonton 29.6%
Quebec 30.3%
Winnipeg 32.3%
Hamilton 30.3%
Kitchener-Waterloo 31.9%

[Hawrylyshyn]

Originally Posted by jonny24

I don't think that's a 1:1 equivalence. My college diploma program was 3 years. Some are 4.

The most common are 1-2 though - especially for International students