Canadian University Thread

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Will universities even be affected? It seems the career colleges will be most impacted.

Absolutely. Especially smaller universities where the majority of students are international. As an example, Cape Breton University in Sydney, NS, over 75% of its student body is international.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by jonny24

I don't think that's a 1:1 equivalence. My college diploma program was 3 years. Some are 4.

For better or worse, Statistics Canada doesn't distinguish between length of college program in their data.

[MolsonExport]

For the London area:

...in the 16 months from January 2022 to April 2023, Fanshawe College approved 12,055 international student visas, ranking sixth highest out of 105 colleges and universities across Canada. Lambton College in Sarnia ranked fifth highest with 13,246, while Western University, a Canadian research institution, approved 1,846, for at rank of 62 out of 105.

https://london.ctvnews.ca/number-of-...tiny-1.6739497

insanity. I had no idea that Fanshaw was taking in more than SIX TIMES the number of International students as Western--a research-intensive university with many internationally-acclaimed graduate programs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

FWIW Canada has the highest percentage of the population with post-secondary educations of any OECD country.

Interestingly Canada's percentage with a bachelor's degree or higher is pretty much average. Where Canada is a real outlier is the high percentage with "short-cycle tertiary education" (i.e. what Canadians call "college").

https://www.oecd.org/education/educa...019_CN_CAN.pdf

I think part of it might be Quebec skewing the numbers due to CEGEP being considered post-secondary when for many it's basically the last year or two of high school.

High school in Quebec ends at secondaire 5, which is equivalent to Grade 11 in a K-12 system. Then you go to CEGEP which only costs about 360 bucks a year. So almost free.

CEGEP is a two-year thing if you're destined for university.

But you can also go to CEGEP for 3 years and learn a trade, becoming a nursing assistant, dental hygienist, plumber, electrician, etc. there at an extremely low cost.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think part of it might be Quebec skewing the numbers due to CEGEP being considered post-secondary when for many it's basically the last year or two of high school.

High school in Quebec ends at secondaire 5, which is equivalent to Grade 11 in a K-12 system. Then you go to CEGEP which only costs about 360 bucks a year. So almost free.

CEGEP is a two-year thing if you're destined for university.

But you can also go to CEGEP for 3 years and learn a trade, becoming a nursing assistant, dental hygienist, plumber, electrician, etc. there at an extremely low cost.

What percent of Quebec kids end up graduating from a CEGEP (either the 2 year pre-University or the specialized trades route)?

I guess those who don't are essentially the same as kids in other provinces who don't do any education beyond a HS diploma?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

What percent of Quebec kids end up graduating from a CEGEP (either the 2 year pre-University or the specialized trades route)?

I guess those who don't are essentially the same as kids in other provinces who don't do any education beyond a HS diploma?

I am guessing that the much higher number for Quebec (than any other province) under apprenticeships and trade schools is related to CEGEP-driven programs or CEGEP-style programs. Even if "CEGEP" is also covered in the next category.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...0&View=2&Age=2

[1overcosc]

The CEGEP system makes a lot of sense and I think that it would be wise for the Anglo provinces to adopt it.

[Docere]

The proportions of sub-bachelor's vs. bachelor's aren't really that different in Quebec, nor does Quebec have an especially high number in the college/CEGEP group.

For population aged 25+:

Canada

College diploma, CEGEP or university diploma below bachelor's 23.3%
Bachelor's degree or higher 29.3%

Quebec

College diploma, CEGEP or university diploma below bachelor's 21.3%
Bachelor's degree or higher 25.9%

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am guessing that the much higher number for Quebec (than any other province) under apprenticeships and trade schools is related to CEGEP-driven programs or CEGEP-style programs. Even if "CEGEP" is also covered in the next category.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...0&View=2&Age=2

That wouldn't make a difference in the OECD figures, as trades/apprenticeships aren't included in tertiary education.

[Docere]

For comparison, 10% of Americans have an associate's degree (the closest equivalent to a college diploma here) and 35% have a bachelor's degree or higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educat..._United_States

So Canada has a higher percentage with postsecondary but US has more bachelor's degree or higher.

[SteelTown]

Queen's principal says 'no risk' university will close, but fears remain
Kingston, Ont., school facing $48M deficit despite hiring freeze, other cuts

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ears-1.7097922

After months of anxiety about the future of Queen's University, a statement from principal Patrick Deane on Friday reassured worried staff and students that the institution is not facing imminent financial collapse.

"Let me be very clear that there is no risk that Queen's in any foreseeable future will close its doors," Deane said in the statement.

The principal acknowledged the unusual nature of his statement, but wrote it was necessary to "set the record straight."

His message followed weeks of meetings and debate about the university's budget, which proposes cuts meant to tackle a $48-million deficit, according to school officials.

Fears spiked during a town hall meeting in December when, as student newspaper The Queen's Journal reported, provost Matthew Evans said he was "concerned about the survival of this institution," adding: "Unless we sort this out, we will go under."

[Acajack]

How can large legacy institutions reach this point without loud prior warning bells going off?

Every institution can face financial pressures, but geez, we only hear about how truly bad it is when it's close to shutting down?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

How can large legacy institutions reach this point without loud prior warning bells going off?

Every institution can face financial pressures, but geez, we only hear about how truly bad it is when it's close to shutting down?

McGill, Concordia and Bishops will be next as enrollment collapses.

[SteelTown]

Universities in Ontario are scrambling because the Feds are saying one thing, and Queen's Park is saying another.

First, Premier Ford cut tuition fees in 2019 and told universities to look at international students to recover costs. Tuition fees continue to be frozen since 2019. The Feds increased the limit on international students; student housing chaos erupted, and the Feds announced a cap on international students, which meant a 50% cut for Ontario. Now universities are scrambling with reductions—meanwhile, there is no news on possible tuition fee increases.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

McGill, Concordia and Bishops will be next as enrollment collapses.

I don't doubt it. Though their situation is due to different circumstances, as you know.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Universities in Ontario are scrambling because the Feds are saying one thing, and Queen's Park is saying another.

First, Premier Ford cut tuition fees in 2019 and told universities to look at international students to recover costs. Tuition fees continue to be frozen since 2019. The Feds increased the limit on international students; student housing chaos erupted, and the Feds announced a cap on international students, which meant a 50% cut for Ontario. Now universities are scrambling with reductions—meanwhile, there is no news on possible tuition fee increases.

Rightly or wrongly, the push for the slash in international students caught everyone off guard, and my guess is that Ford will eventually give in and allow them to increase tuition fees. Which are already pretty high. (I have kids in Ontario and Quebec universities and the differences are huge, and it's basically an abyss as you move forward towards more specialized graduate programs.)

[kool maudit]

I can't believe what I am reading. The closure of Queen's University? This should be unthinkable. It is one of the greatest institutions in the country. This would be like Karolinska closing here, or something like Dartmouth or Cornell in the US.

[kool maudit]

Obviously he is saying that it won't close, but it's sort of like saying you won't ram a freeway through Old Montreal. It should never have been close to coming up.

[niwell]

What a bizarre statement from Queen's. I imagine the strategy is to put a fire under the government's seat but the optics are also... not great.

Once you get outside of general programs (which have weirdly low fees) into anything specialized then tuition fees get pretty high in Ontario. I have no idea how people are able to afford it these days unless parents have money or are able to leverage property that's increased significantly. For those stuck in my position having to rely on student loans and part-time jobs when I wasn't swamped with coursework (it was very difficult to find time in Engineering) I have no idea how you'd do it. If I were graduating high school today I'd probably have to take a year or two off to work, which doesn't always go well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

What a bizarre statement from Queen's. I imagine the strategy is to put a fire under the government's seat but the optics are also... not great.

Once you get outside of general programs (which have weirdly low fees) into anything specialized then tuition fees get pretty high in Ontario. I have no idea how people are able to afford it these days unless parents have money or are able to leverage property that's increased significantly. For those stuck in my position having to rely on student loans and part-time jobs when I wasn't swamped with coursework (it was very difficult to find time in Engineering) I have no idea how you'd do it. If I were graduating high school today I'd probably have to take a year or two off to work, which doesn't always go well.

As an example, law school at the University of Ottawa is around 15,000 a year. Med school is around 30,000 a year.

Yes, I know these are two "prestige" programs.

I haven't checked the MBA but I suspect it might be close to med school or maybe more at this point.