Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity - Page 314

New Brisavoine · #**6261** Posted **Dec 25, 2023, 10:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If read out loud by someone who knows how to pronounce it properly, that passage is quite understandable to someone who knows modern English.

No. No modern English speaker could understand "trowe", however it is pronounced. A French speaker could, on the other hand, since this is a French word.

1overcosc · #**6262** Posted **Dec 25, 2023, 10:52 PM**

You can easily derive its meaning from the rest of the sentence. Just like a five year old learns new words.

1overcosc · #**6263** Posted **Dec 27, 2023, 5:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Both "block" and "Europe" are French words. So your text is wrong in the first place.

It is nearly impossible to speak English without using words of French origin.

Not particularly difficult.

"Yesterday I ate an apple. It was good. But then for breakfast today I baked a chicken and it made me sick. I went outside and looked at the sunny sky and then I felt better."

That paragraph is a cohesive thought, an entire story, and guess what? Not a single word of French or of Latin origin. 100% Germanic.

You can't construct a complete story like that in English without using words of Germanic origin. Because, again, the core vocabulary of English is overwhelmingly Germanic. Statements like "French words are 60% of English" are completely misleading because they ignore that we use words like today, eat, and the way more often than we use the words parliament, cuisine, or attorney.

New Brisavoine · #**6264** Posted **Dec 28, 2023, 2:54 AM**

^^You are just trying too hard. French vocabulary is not confined to words like "parliament" or "cuisine". Try speaking everyday English without using French words like "just", "very", "sure", "use", "enjoy", etc, it's just not possible. Limiting yourself to Germanic words would make you sound like a mentally retarded person, with not enough vocabulary to express yourself even in the most mundane, daily interactions. It's not just speeches in Parliament that require French words, what a silly thing to say!

rousseau · #**6265** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 3:48 AM**

Didn't know where else to post this, so I thought this thread would do.

Bagel-off between Montreal and New York. Blindfolded New Yorker is diplomatic, but it's fairly obvious that he prefers the Montreal bagel. What caught my ear, though, is that the second generation owner of St. Viateur Bagels, who speaks Quebec accented English, pronounced the street name as "Saint Vee-ay-der."

Is that really how anglos say it? (01:31)

https://www.fox5ny.com/video/1395667

kwoldtimer · #**6266** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 1:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rousseau

Didn't know where else to post this, so I thought this thread would do.

Bagel-off between Montreal and New York. Blindfolded New Yorker is diplomatic, but it's fairly obvious that he prefers the Montreal bagel. What caught my ear, though, is that the second generation owner of St. Viateur Bagels, who speaks Quebec accented English, pronounced the street name as "Saint Vee-ay-der."

Is that really how anglos say it? (01:31)

https://www.fox5ny.com/video/1395667

Reminds me of the folks who refer to the "Shadow Laurier" in Ottawa. Canadian sloppy enunciation.

Acajack · #**6267** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 1:59 PM**

I find that pronunciation of French names by anglophones in Montreal varies widely, with no set standard and some anglos pronouncing them perfectly the French way, and others using very English phonology. And anything in between.

Vince Morena from St-Viateur has a similar accent to mine in English if I haven't been speaking English for a while.

When I've been speaking English more regularly, though, I sound more like Justin Trudeau.

MolsonExport · #**6268** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 2:11 PM**

If he had gone to Fairmount bagels, he could have avoided all the pronunciation problems.

I myself prefer St. Viateur. We stocked up with 24 half-dozen the last time I was in Montreal (Sept 23). All gobbled within three weeks. I can get frozen ones at the local Metro, however.

kwoldtimer · #**6269** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 2:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find that pronunciation of French names by anglophones in Montreal varies widely, with no set standard and some anglos pronouncing them perfectly the French way, and others using very English phonology. And anything in between.

Vince Morena from St-Viateur has a similar accent to mine in English if I haven't been speaking English for a while.

When I've been speaking English more regularly, though, I sound more like Justin Trudeau.

His English has it's oddities. I noticed the other day that he pronounces "rather" as "rahther" (English "a" with a Canadian final "r"). He, like many others, also says "elecTORal" rather than "eLECtoral". I wonder when that became a thing?

kool maudit · #**6270** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 2:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by rousseau

Didn't know where else to post this, so I thought this thread would do.

Bagel-off between Montreal and New York. Blindfolded New Yorker is diplomatic, but it's fairly obvious that he prefers the Montreal bagel. What caught my ear, though, is that the second generation owner of St. Viateur Bagels, who speaks Quebec accented English, pronounced the street name as "Saint Vee-ay-der."

Is that really how anglos say it? (01:31)

https://www.fox5ny.com/video/1395667

Sort of? I lived on Jeanne-Mance and St-Viateur for several years. A more muted kind of "Vee-uh-ter" for me. But I've heard the other.

Acajack · #**6271** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 2:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

His English has it's oddities. I noticed the other day that he pronounces "rather" as "rahther" (English "a" with a Canadian final "r"). He, like many others, also says "elecTORal" rather than "eLECtoral". I wonder when that became a thing?

So you say "raw-ther"?

kwoldtimer · #**6272** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 2:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

So you say "raw-ther"?

I think your rawther is the same as my rahther. I say rather - same soft "a" as apple or man.

Acajack · #**6273** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 3:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I think your rawther is the same as my rahther. I say rather - same soft "a" as apple or man.

The A in my "rather" sounds like the A in hat or rat. It's (North) American, I gather.

kool maudit · #**6274** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 3:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Sort of? I lived on Jeanne-Mance

Oh, yeah... and "Gene Mantz".

That's probably going to sound stranger than the St. Viateur thing.

kwoldtimer · #**6275** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 3:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

The A in my "rather" sounds like the A in hat or rat. It's (North) American, I gather.

Yes. That's why I found the PM's version odd.

Acajack · #**6276** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 3:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Oh, yeah... and "Gene Mantz".

That's probably going to sound stranger than the St. Viateur thing.

The anglo media in Montreal aren't quite that bad, though they do have a lot of French names they pronounce as if they were in English. (When you know for a fact the hosts know how to say them the French way.)

François Legault is "frann-swaw luh-goh". Longueuil is "long-gay". Lucien Bouchard is "loo-sienn boo-shard". "Jean Chrétien" is "zhawn kretch-yenn".

kool maudit · #**6277** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 4:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

The anglo media in Montreal aren't quite that bad, though they do have a lot of French names they pronounce as if they were in English. (When you know for a fact the hosts know how to say them the French way.)

Most Anglos I knew who grew up in that part of town said it that way. I suppose these were people born between 1970-1985ish. Being a transplant, I generally code-switched. I'd definitely use Gene Mantz as well as Zhahn-Mahnse, but stopped short of "St. Lawrence" and certainly "Dorchester", which I really only ever heard from older Westmount and NDG Anglos.

I absolutely said "Saint Henry", "Park Avenue" and "Saint Urban", though.

Acajack · #**6278** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 4:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Most Anglos I knew who grew up in that part of town said it that way. I suppose these were people born between 1970-1985ish. Being a transplant, I generally code-switched. I'd definitely use Gene Mantz as well as Zhahn-Mahnse, but stopped short of "St. Lawrence" and certainly "Dorchester", which I really only ever heard from older Westmount and NDG Anglos.

I absolutely said "Saint Henry", "Park Avenue" and "Saint Urban", though.

I've also noticed they say "Saint Lee-oh-nard" instead of "Saint Lennard" (or Saint-Léonard).

MonctonRad · #**6279** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 4:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

The anglo media in Montreal aren't quite that bad, though they do have a lot of French names they pronounce as if they were in English. (When you know for a fact the hosts know how to say them the French way.)

François Legault is "frann-swaw luh-goh". Longueuil is "long-gay". Lucien Bouchard is "loo-sienn boo-shard". "Jean Chrétien" is "zhawn kretch-yenn".

I would imagine the anglo media in Montreal know they are servicing an overwhelming anglophone listening audience, and tailor their pronunciations accordingly (the Montreal version of "BBC English").

Do many Montrealais listen to anglo media regularly?

kool maudit · #**6280** Posted **Jan 16, 2024, 4:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've also noticed they say "Saint Lee-oh-nard" instead of "Saint Lennard" (or Saint-Léonard).

Definitely. I had an Italian-Montrealer ex from that area. "St Leo" in text form.

Some names seemed so rarely used among Anglos that the form hadn't settled. "Hoh-sheh-la-ga" or "Osh-la-ga", didn't seem to matter. You never went there! (I actually lived there 2001-3).

De La Veh-Rahn-Dree-Ay.

Noder-Dame, of course. Mountain. But not Saint-Anthony for Saint-Antoine. Venn-dome.