Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I take your word on that, but given the large cultural differences between Québec and the rest of Canada (as this tread exemplifies), I'm curious how they manage to ensure a unity of sentences across such a vast country with a cultural divide in its middle. It cannot be national recruitment as in France, since judges from Québec stay in Québec, judges from ROC stay in ROC. So what then? Cannot be the existence of a single Canadian criminal code either, because the code gives a sentences range to judges as you say. So what then? In France there used to be the "parquet" which gave orders to the judges to enforce laws in a certain way (although the control of the "parquet" over the criminal judges has been loosened since the 2000s), but I doubt Canada has anything similar to a federal minister of justice telling judges across provinces how severely or laxly they should punish crimes via a "parquet" issuing orders.

I've honestly never heard of it. ROC-Quebec differences tend to be downplayed and ignored in the ROC but played up in Quebec. If it existed we'd hear about it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Given the excellent issue you brought up re: OAS eating up the federal budget in the other thread, I wouldn't be surprised if the immigration ponzi scheme rears its ugly head in another form before this government sunsets, or sometime during the mandate of the next government. Or if the federal government is lazy, restart the same scheme. The Casper boomers whose interests dominate Ottawa has an iron grip over federal politicans, and the boomers see this as the only way to pay for their expensive entitlements.

They are stuck. They've mostly deferred the problem by borrowing and hoping immigration keeps the debt-to-gdp ratio manageable enough to keep the borrowing going. But this is catching up to them electorally. The question now is what the next government does. To make the math work, any cut to immigration has to come with an even steeper cut to OAS. And that's before accounting for any other tax cuts promised.

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

The basement ghettos are most concentrated in Brampton, but admittedly they're quite common in the 416, Mississauga, and Durham as well. I've heard they're even popping up in tony Oakville.

Families living in basements doesn't make a neighbourhood a ghetto. If that was true, most of our history would be filled with ghettos. I think it's the cramming in of students in to what are effectively rooming houses that turns these places into ghettos. 15 to a house is still rare outside Brampton and mostly just confined to a few blocks near any college or university. Families are renting out basements more elsewhere. That's just a function of the housing crisis. Not enough places to live. And not enough income to pay for the house without renting out the basement.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Families living in basements doesn't make a neighbourhood a ghetto. If that was true, most of our history would be filled with ghettos. I think it's the cramming in of students in to what are effectively rooming houses that turns these places into ghettos. 15 to a house is still rare outside Brampton and mostly just confined to a few blocks near any college or university. Families are renting out basements more elsewhere. That's just a function of the housing crisis. Not enough places to live. And not enough income to pay for the house without renting out the basement.

I wouldn't say it's that rare. Maybe not 15, but jamming 6-8 is even common in Hamilton and KW now outside of the GTA.

[Acajack]

Right now jobs are plentiful and so even the bogus students can earn money without too much trouble.

Where Seine-St-Denis can happen is when we have a recession and those jobs dry up, and those people don't leave Canada when their visas expire.

When we all know most won't leave, and Canada doesn't even have a process to track them leaving the country.

France has one (OQTF) and even so it's not really applied.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've honestly never heard of it. ROC-Quebec differences tend to be downplayed and ignored in the ROC but played up in Quebec. If it existed we'd hear about it.

For example, let's give a concrete example. Given all you know about your country and what you've read/heard in the news over the years: let's suppose some environmentalists blocking a major freeway in Montréal at rush hour to protest against the government's inaction in face of climate change, with massive traffic jams as a consequence, people unable to reach emergency room at the hospital, missing planes, etc, and let's suppose the same in Calgary. Would these activists be sentenced in Québec to exactly the same sentence as in Alberta? As I've said, in Paris for what I've described you get a simple "rappel à la loi" (no fine, no prison term), whereas in London you get firm prison term (both true examples that took place in the past 3 years).

PS: Note that in France you could also get a prison term for what I'm describing (as per the criminal code), it's just the judge chose not to sentence the environmentalists to a prison term or even a fine.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Right now jobs are plentiful and so even the bogus students can earn money without too much trouble.

Where Seine-St-Denis can happen is when we have a recession and those jobs dry up, and those people don't leave Canada when their visas expire.

Even calling it plentiful now is a bit of a stretch, given that there's almost 1 million gig workers with Uber delivery as their primary source of income. Agreed the unemployment picture can get much worse as the economy keeps going south, and these "students" will be more desperate than ever.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

For example, let's give a concrete example. Given all you know about your country and what you've read/heard in the news over the years: let's suppose some environmentalists blocking a major freeway in Montréal at rush hour to protest against the government's inaction in face of climate change, with massive traffic jams as a consequence, people unable to reach emergency room at the hospital, missing planes, etc, and let's suppose the same in Calgary. Would these activists be sentenced in Québec to exactly the same sentence as in Alberta? As I've said, in Paris for what I've described you get a simple "rappel à la loi" (no fine, no prison term), whereas in London you get firm jail time (both true examples that took place in the past 3 years).

It's hard to say for sure. It could be harsher in Calgary or it could be harsher in Montréal. There are plenty of other areas where I could point out the differences I would expect (like how police would treat people drinking alcohol at a picnic in a park) but for this type of case in the courts, I can't say.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Families living in basements doesn't make a neighbourhood a ghetto.

But projects do, according to you.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And because most of our cities don't have anything like the projects you have in the banlieues of Paris.

[Acajack]

Tons of places in and around our cities have the potential to become "the projects" even if they aren't like that today.

This is a street near where I live. It's working class and ok today. Wouldn't take much for it to become "the projects".


https://maps.app.goo.gl/7o2FhkR6EwjFKqEp7

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's hard to say for sure. It could be harsher in Calgary or it could be harsher in Montréal. There are plenty of other areas where I could point out the differences I would expect (like how police would treat people drinking alcohol at a picnic in a park) but for this type of case in the courts, I can't say.

Blocking roads isn't a criminal offence for the most part in Canada. It is treated differently by province. Mostly on local views on trespass and vandalism. And there's no ROC consensus here either. Look how long certain occupations have gone on in Ontario. Vs say Alberta passing laws that let them arrest anybody protesting on a public conveyance.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Tons of places in and around our cities have the potential to become "the projects" even if they aren't like that today.

This is a street near where I live. It's working class and ok today. Wouldn't take much for it to become "the projects".


https://maps.app.goo.gl/7o2FhkR6EwjFKqEp7

If we do absolutely nothing about our housing crisis and immigration stays as it is. Sure. But democracy is self-correcting here. There's backlash on immigration (and uniquely here without the racism you'd see in the US or Europe) and even the Liberals are now suddenly in a near-panic about housing with announcements every second day. It's a test I guess to see if our democracy is up to these challenges. I mostly think it'll be solved. Just late. And more painfully than necessary.

Also, that street looks very, very far from anything I'd consider to be "the projects". It looks better than many places in Brampton. And night and day to the crap I saw outside the airport in Paris a few years ago.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Where Seine-St-Denis can happen is when we have a recession and those jobs dry up

This is unconvincing... Seine-Saint-Denis is part of a metropolitan region (with easy access to anywhere thanks to one of the largest and cheapest public transportation systems in the world) that has virtually as many jobs as one can need. It's not like you're unemployed there because there are no jobs. In France the businesses lack hundreds of thousands of workers, as in the rest of France (a problem that is general to Europe).

Also, Seine-Saint-Denis has a GDP per capita that is higher than anything you can find in Canada. It's not the "poor place" it's often made to be in foreign countries (or even in France). In 2019 (last year before Covid), Seine-Saint-Denis had a GDP per capita of 75,781 USD. Québec had a GDP per capita of 40,853 USD in 2019. Ontario 46,195. Alberta 60,933.

So no, the problem is elsewhere. Seine-Saint-Denis has pockets of poverty (mitigated by the generous French social net) in the middle of a very rich territory with virtually full employment.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Blocking roads isn't a criminal offence for the most part in Canada. It is treated differently by province. Mostly on local views on trespass and vandalism. And there's no ROC consensus here either. Look how long certain occupations have gone on in Ontario. Vs say Alberta passing laws that let them arrest anybody protesting on a public conveyance.

So there is a difference in the way criminal law is enforced across Canada then.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So there is a difference in the way criminal law is enforced across Canada then.

What part of "isn't a criminal offence" did you not understand? It's not part of the criminal code. These can be provincial offences though. And provincial offences don't appear on any criminal record. If you actually understood Canada, you'd get the difference.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Also, Seine-Saint-Denis has a GDP per capita that is higher than anything you can find in Canada. It's not the "poor place" it's often made to be in foreign countries (or even in France). In 2019 (last year before Covid), Seine-Saint-Denis had a GDP per capita of 75,781 USD. Québec had a GDP per capita of 40,853 USD in 2019. Ontario 46,195. Alberta 60,933.

So no, the problem is elsewhere. Seine-Saint-Denis has pockets of poverty (mitigated by the generous French social net) in the middle of a very rich territory with virtually full employment.

Where is that PIB stat from? If I'm reading the INSEE stats correctly, the Department of Seine-Saint-Denis has median disposable income of 19K euros and a poverty rate of 28.4% as of 2021. How could it possibly have a GDP per capita rate of 75,7K USD?

https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/1405599?geo=DEP-93

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Also, that street looks very, very far from anything I'd consider to be "the projects".

I agree with that. Although to be fair the projects were also not "the projects" when they were built, they were a pleasant environment compared to older dwellings, plenty of sunshine in the apartments, lawns outside, shops and stores around the tower blocks, mixed population (essentially White European lower middle class to middle class back then, with some non-European immigrants too). It's only over time that they became "the projects" as you have them in mind, and it was an organic development, due to socioeconomic forces plus immigration patterns, not due to conscious policy choices, let alone official "ghettoization", which has never existed (for Apartheid, check South Africa, not France).

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And night and day to the crap I saw outside the airport in Paris a few years ago.

What one sees from the windows of the commuter train at CDG is the worst of the suburbs (which is not surprising as wealthy people tend to eschew living close to rail lines), so it's not really representative, as usual when you look through the window of a train (what you see from the window of the train between Gatwick Airport and central London is not pretty either, and not representative of what London really is).

Seine-Saint-Denis has far better areas than what you saw. I made various urban trecks in Seine-Saint-Denis with a forum member from SSC and we even created photo threads to show people how it looks.

We jokingly created this one for example: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...post-131968858
(jokingly because Molenbeek, a Muslim immigrant district of Brussels, has a very bad reputation, and had a particularly bad one when we created that thread because that's where the Islamist terrorists that struck that year came from)

You can see the pictures of our urban trek in post #2 of that thread (I see the pictures are still there). Minato then posted other pictures from other visits (without me) in the other posts. You'll be surprised. And we didn't even select the best part of Seine-Saint-Denis. Just a random part, starting in the municipality where some of the terrorists that year came from. All pictures are from Seine-Saint-Denis only.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Nowhere near the levels seen in France. The problems will start when Montréal has concentrations of 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim immigrants as high as those in large French cities.


I mean that outside of Québec, opposing the veil is seen as racist and PCness requires to happily accept veiled women as if it was just a neutral fashion accessory. Also, communitarianism means the government is unwilling to fight backward traditions among Muslim immigrants, and considers it just as a quaint aspect of their "community" that must be respected. There is no sense of universal values that must be defended against encroachments by a backward religion. Until it is too late.

Québec is more concerned by this than the rest of Canada, since they welcome much more Muslim immigrants. Of course Québec has less of that Anglo-Saxon communitarian approach, but they are constrained by the federal government/courts and medias from the ROC.

One aspect where Anglo-Saxons countries have an advantage, however, is in general they have a far harsher justice system. France has a very lax justice system, more than half of felonies and misdemeanors do not lead to a prison sentence. And 40% of prison sentences are not enforced. Since 2019, prison terms of less than 6 months are automatically not enforced anymore. French judges often prefer "rappel à la loi" (judge reminding the delinquent of the law, like WTF!!) or "travail d'intérêt général" (community work of a few hours instead of a prison term). So that gives the offenders a sense that everything is allowed, with little consequences. In Anglo-Saxon countries, usually, there are consequences if one breaks the law.

For example the 3 teenagers who beat a 13 y/o Muslim girl into a coma just outside of her school in Montpellier last week because she used some make-up and didn't wear a veil (they called her "kuffar", which means "miscreant", "infidel", "unbeliever" in Arabic), and who have recognized the facts and been indicted with attempted homicide, have been released from custody and placed under judicial control, without even a bail. What sort of message does this send to other would-be offenders?? And they don't risk all that much, because in France people under 18 y/o are outrageously protected by the justice system due to an outdated law from 1945 that has not been amended to reflect changes in society (the French Left is absolutely opposed to lowering the age at which a teenager can be sentenced by regular criminal courts and sentenced to the same sentences as an adult, so it remains at 18, and gangs routinely use people under 18 to commit crimes because they know they risk little).

There are just so many Muslim families in Canada where the Canadian born children are much more liberal and less religious than their parents. They are part of mainstream society here and don't have anger against a government that sees them as being a problem.

Quebec does not let in way more Muslim immigrants than elsewhere in Canada. I don't know where you heard that. The largest concentrated Muslim populations are in the GTA (and especially Mississauga) as well as Ottawa and in many other parts of Ontario. Also in Alberta cities and then Montreal.

There is no view that opposing women wearing specific clothing is racist or wrong. That is just something made up by far-right people who actually do hate people who are different. What is generally not tolerated is personally harassing people who are wearing specific clothing whether religious or not. We also don't tolerate harassing people for not wearing religious-related clothing.

I know a number of Muslim families and they are quite different from one another. They come from different countries and contients, are of difference races and from different political views. You just can't generalize.

Quebec is more concerned about any specific religion because it's a more secular society and used to be very religious-based but soundly rejected the Catholic church's influence since the 1960s. The region of Ontario where I live is quite similar and very secular but we do have a mosque and Muslim immigrants. I have yet to hear of any Muslim immigrant committing a crime here as most of the Muslim here population is very well educated and not extremist in any way.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If we do absolutely nothing about our housing crisis and immigration stays as it is. Sure. But democracy is self-correcting here. There's backlash on immigration (and uniquely here without the racism you'd see in the US or Europe) and even the Liberals are now suddenly in a near-panic about housing with announcements every second day. It's a test I guess to see if our democracy is up to these challenges. I mostly think it'll be solved. Just late. And more painfully than necessary..

To be honest though, even with Trudeau's backpedaling on international students and immigration, the new targets (if the government follows through) is still higher than what it was pre-COVID, and much higher than the Harper years. Also, it's still higher than the targets that the Century Initiative is pedalling.

So politically it hasn't even reached the point of self-correcting yet, at most it's just scrapping off the excess cream that's dripping off.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What part of "isn't a criminal offence" did you not understand?

Trespassing is not a criminal offense?? What's your definition of a crime?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's not part of the criminal code. These can be provincial offences though. And provincial offences don't appear on any criminal record. If you actually understood Canada, you'd get the difference.

I think you're playing with words here. I'm referring to "crime" as it is generally understood in English, i.e. anything that is called in French either "crime", or just "délit", or even just "contravention" ("délinquance" in general). I am not referring to crime as "only what is in the federal criminal code of Canada". That's playing with words and that's not what the average English speaker understands as "crime".

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Where is that PIB stat from?

Eurostat (the EU's statistical agency): https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databr...0.reg_eco10gdp

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

If I'm reading the INSEE stats correctly, the Department of Seine-Saint-Denis has median disposable income of 19K euros and a poverty rate of 28.4% as of 2021. How could it possibly have a GDP per capita rate of 75,7K USD?

That's because a vast amount of the French GDP per capita is diverted by the French state (via taxes and social contributions). We have the highest percentage of GDP being taxed away from people in the world, ahead of even Denmark. I think it was 53% of GDP that went into state and social security pockets last time I checked (i.e. you as an individual get only 47% of the GDP).

So disposable income doesn't tell the whole story, and cannot really be used for international comparisons, because in France the French state has a firepower far superior to countries with lower taxation (which means a much more generous social net, almost free healthcare, free universities, impeccable roads (well, mostly, been going downwards recently), "chèque énergie" for people with low incomes to pay their utility bills, "chèque culture" for all teenagers, and all other sorts of goodies too long to list).

Also, poverty line in France is... not exactly the same as poverty line in the US. They have far stricter requirements for poverty line in France (i.e. it's set higher than in many other countries, so the percentage is a bit meaningless in itself for international comparisons).

For example some guy was comparing the poverty rate in Réunion and Mauritius, and it appeared Réunion had a "higher" poverty rate than Mauritius, but the official definition of the poverty line in Réunion is like 2 or 3 times the income level of Mauritius's poverty line, so at the poverty line in Réunion you would be considered rich in Mauritius.