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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2008, 7:40 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by Franky View Post
Are you suggesting we lay track to Kanata, Barhaven, Orleans and Gatineau to run a single train in the morning?
Why lay track when it's already there?
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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2008, 8:13 PM
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Why lay track when it's already there?
? So what's the catch? Why aren't our politicians all over it? Smells like rail hype...
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2008, 9:36 PM
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? So what's the catch? Why aren't our politicians all over it? Smells like rail hype...
It was the recommendation of the Mayor's Task Force... except, I would seperate the means of transit. In all proposals we have seen, they only propose one method of rail transit. Which I find ridiculous, because LRT is not one size fits all.

The way I always say it, it would be a mish-mash of metro technology with transfer stations to the suburbuban commuter train, evolved to RER-type service when needed.
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2008, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
It was the recommendation of the Mayor's Task Force... except, I would seperate the means of transit. In all proposals we have seen, they only propose one method of rail transit. Which I find ridiculous, because LRT is not one size fits all.

The way I always say it, it would be a mish-mash of metro technology with transfer stations to the suburbuban commuter train, evolved to RER-type service when needed.
What is "RER-type service"? Did the "Mayor's Task Force" put a price tag on it? I'll try to look it up, but if you have a link...
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2008, 10:44 PM
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What is "RER-type service"? Did the "Mayor's Task Force" put a price tag on it? I'll try to look it up, but if you have a link...
It started as a basic commuter train service in Paris, one train every 30 minutes. Over the years, they double tracked the rails, and expended the stations to 315m platforms. The stations are about 2km apart compared to 500 for the metro.

The success is so big, that one line is achieving 55000pphpd, with train frequency higher than the metro itself. The new trains are double-deckers metro cars, again 315m in length. It's an impressive system.

This is the same model Sydney followed to develop their transit system, now they are adding a subway core, plus other LRT lines.


It's cheap to start (like the O-Train), but it complements a metro-type system, it is not meant to replace it. It is doubled the speed of a metro and nearly triple the speed of an LRT system, because it was meant as a system for the suburbs first.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RER

It now links all train stations except one, intersects with the metro at many stations, plus connects to all airports in the vicinity of the city.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Q6QQmmJsE
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 1:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Franky View Post
Are you suggesting we lay track to Kanata, Barhaven, Orleans and Gatineau to run a single train in the morning?
No, there already is track. There are rail lines that VIA uses running through the heart of Barhaven, and there is a line of track that runs to the employment hub in Kanata on march road. We just need to use those tracks. I would see hourly service to kanata and Farhaven.
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 4:11 AM
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I really think that comparing Ottawa with Paris is not particularly helpful. The situations are not the same. The scale of the cities are much different, and I expect that population density outside the city proper in Paris is much higher. The evolution of public transit is different. Commuter rail was brought in no doubt to address a need that was not being addressed by traditional transit. Thanks to the federal government, Ottawa has closed its downtown rail station. Also, Ottawa's Transitway provides direct and fast service to almost all our major suburbs from downtown. To suggest that an hourly train to a station away from downtown in competition with a more direct, more frequent bus service would draw significant numbers downtown commuters is pure craziness.

I am not against using existing track, but commuter trains will be mostly beneficial for beyond the urban transit area, but that will be limited by the low population base. Furthermore, I support use of the cross-town track to provide a cross-town downtown bypass. It won't be used unless it is reasonably frequent like the O-Train allowing transfers without lengthy waits.

Based on the logic presented above, we should moving forward faster on LRT to Orleans since we have no available existing rail line to offer a commuter train.
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 11:18 AM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I really think that comparing Ottawa with Paris is not particularly helpful. The situations are not the same. The scale of the cities are much different, and I expect that population density outside the city proper in Paris is much higher. The evolution of public transit is different. Commuter rail was brought in no doubt to address a need that was not being addressed by traditional transit. Thanks to the federal government, Ottawa has closed its downtown rail station. Also, Ottawa's Transitway provides direct and fast service to almost all our major suburbs from downtown. To suggest that an hourly train to a station away from downtown in competition with a more direct, more frequent bus service would draw significant numbers downtown commuters is pure craziness.

I am not against using existing track, but commuter trains will be mostly beneficial for beyond the urban transit area, but that will be limited by the low population base. Furthermore, I support use of the cross-town track to provide a cross-town downtown bypass. It won't be used unless it is reasonably frequent like the O-Train allowing transfers without lengthy waits.

Based on the logic presented above, we should moving forward faster on LRT to Orleans since we have no available existing rail line to offer a commuter train.
Of course, nothing is similar, but the system that they have right now was not built overnight. You need to start somewhere, Ottawa right now is a dump, so they better start doing something with scale.

Are express buses used? Yes, even with low frequency, are commuter trains used? They're overflowing.

I doubt Ottawa will ever need a quarter-mile platforms with double decker. I'm just saying that you need to start somewhere, and it can be cheap to do so and offer the alternatives you've been ranting for the last 2 years, while offering faster speed.
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  #89  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 12:39 PM
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I doubt Ottawa will ever need a quarter-mile platforms with double decker. I'm just saying that you need to start somewhere, and it can be cheap to do so and offer the alternatives you've been ranting for the last 2 years, while offering faster speed.
Sure, let's get a start. I just see the market as being different, because of the lack of a downtown rail station.
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  #90  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
Of course, nothing is similar, but the system that they have right now was not built overnight. You need to start somewhere, Ottawa right now is a dump, so they better start doing something with scale.

Are express buses used? Yes, even with low frequency, are commuter trains used? They're overflowing.

I doubt Ottawa will ever need a quarter-mile platforms with double decker. I'm just saying that you need to start somewhere, and it can be cheap to do so and offer the alternatives you've been ranting for the last 2 years, while offering faster speed.
What exactly would be the point of running diesel trains to the "suburbs"? That's what the Mayor's Task Force recommended. Electrifying those existing tracks and buying the LRV to run on them would not be cost effective and not much better than our current diesel buses.
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  #91  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 1:13 PM
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What exactly would be the point of running diesel trains to the "suburbs"? That's what the Mayor's Task Force recommended. Electrifying those existing tracks and buying the LRV to run on them would not be cost effective and not much better than our current diesel buses.
It would be much more cost effective, because trains would be full. That's when you adjust frequency. We're not talking about LRVs here, but something similar to heavy rail subway cars like they use in Europse. Electrifying is not that expensive, we could do that for the entire system for 75M$. If anything, electrification is one of the most cost effective thing to do when diesel costs are high. Compared to the entire cost of the project, it's a drop in the bucket.

The point is to provide a fast service that replaces express buses, while offering a similar capacity. Let's say there's a Regional EXpress (REX like the Ontario government calls it) that goes to Bayview. That makes a Downtown station, available, and connecting to a metro system. This would allow conversion of the S-E Transitway instead, and also save money to connect to Riverside South, you would only need one track instead of two, and only for a short section.

Suburbs are still mostly unidirectional traffic, I don't see why there's the need to bring LRT with high frequencies, it will be one car-train most of the day.

When ridership gets high enough on the REX system, you start double tracking. I would double track and electrify from Bayview to Confederation from the start, as it would be on of the main line connectin to DT, as well as Confederation and the existing Via station, for transfers to the metro system.

You need to have an integrated system to have high ridership, but there's no vision or that in any of the city plans.
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  #92  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 1:57 PM
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It would be much more cost effective, because trains would be full. That's when you adjust frequency. We're not talking about LRVs here, but something similar to heavy rail subway cars like they use in Europse. Electrifying is not that expensive, we could do that for the entire system for 75M$. If anything, electrification is one of the most cost effective thing to do when diesel costs are high. Compared to the entire cost of the project, it's a drop in the bucket.

The point is to provide a fast service that replaces express buses, while offering a similar capacity. Let's say there's a Regional EXpress (REX like the Ontario government calls it) that goes to Bayview. That makes a Downtown station, available, and connecting to a metro system. This would allow conversion of the S-E Transitway instead, and also save money to connect to Riverside South, you would only need one track instead of two, and only for a short section.

Suburbs are still mostly unidirectional traffic, I don't see why there's the need to bring LRT with high frequencies, it will be one car-train most of the day.

When ridership gets high enough on the REX system, you start double tracking. I would double track and electrify from Bayview to Confederation from the start, as it would be on of the main line connectin to DT, as well as Confederation and the existing Via station, for transfers to the metro system.

You need to have an integrated system to have high ridership, but there's no vision or that in any of the city plans.
And this is where I completely disagree with you. People who are accustomed to door to door service to downtown, are not going to want to take a bus to a rail station not centrally located within their community and with infrequent rail service, then take that train across town via a circuitous route and then have to transfer to another train to get to downtown. Sorry, that will not sell in this market. It works in Oakville and Brampton and Richmond Hill and Oshawa, because the distances are greater to downtown Toronto and the most direct transit routes into downtown are in fact rail lines. That is not the case here.

Let's put it this way. How popular would a Go Train be between Oakville and Toronto, if it travelled via Brampton and terminated in Scarborough instead of downtown? A similar arrangement to what you are suggesting here.
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  #93  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
And this is where I completely disagree with you. People who are accustomed to door to door service to downtown, are not going to want to take a bus to a rail station not centrally located within their community and with infrequent rail service, then take that train across town via a circuitous route and then have to transfer to another train to get to downtown. Sorry, that will not sell in this market. It works in Oakville and Brampton and Richmond Hill and Oshawa, because the distances are greater to downtown Toronto and the most direct transit routes into downtown are in fact rail lines. That is not the case here.

Let's put it this way. How popular would a Go Train be between Oakville and Toronto, if it travelled via Brampton and terminated in Scarborough instead of downtown? A similar arrangement to what you are suggesting here.
LOL, are you crazy? We are talking about a station at BAYVIEW here, 500m from DT, which will eventually be DT. This is the same distance as Union station in Toronto! If there's anything, the Kanata through Confederation to Bayview is even more direct that the Toronto lines! The train stations in Toronto are not even remotely close to major centres.

Stop always putting excuses that it wouldn't work, numbers in other cities show that it did. If people want door to door bus service, they should stick to their cars.

The rail distance from Kanata to DT Ottawa is the same as Pickering to DT Toronto. Why do you think they're building a REX network in Toronto, because they have extra money to spare?

Last edited by p_xavier; Sep 18, 2008 at 3:06 PM.
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  #94  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 3:17 PM
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LOL, are you crazy? We are talking about a station at BAYVIEW here, 500m from DT, which will eventually be DT. This is the same distance as Union station in Toronto! If there's anything, the Kanata through Confederation to Bayview is even more direct that the Toronto lines! The train stations in Toronto are not even remotely close to major centres.

Stop always putting excuses that it wouldn't work, numbers in other cities show that it did. If people want door to door bus service, they should stick to their cars.

The rail distance from Kanata to DT Ottawa is the same as Pickering to DT Toronto. Why do you think they're building a REX network in Toronto, because they have extra money to spare?
Pickering: 34.6 km, pop. 87,000 (though there is no greenbelt?)
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=pickeri...=1&sa=N&tab=wl

Kanata: 25.3 km, pop. 85,000
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=pickeri...=1&sa=N&tab=wl

Why hasn't anyone stopped you form posting something outside of option 4? Is it because you propose a rail system?
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  #95  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 3:19 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Pickering: 34.6 km, pop. 87,000 (though there is no greenbelt?)
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=pickeri...=1&sa=N&tab=wl

Kanata: 25.3 km, pop. 85,000
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=pickeri...=1&sa=N&tab=wl

I said rail distance, through confederation (Old LRT plan), it's about 35km.

It's because it was part of the old plan I guess, and was in the interim propositions by the city, well last time.
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  #96  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 3:33 PM
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Interesting as this discussion is, doesn't it belong in the other thread? Isn't this one supposed to be generally about developments in the Rapid Transit Network before Council and the public? I'm probably guilty of having violated that myself a bit, but this discussion has clearly done so...
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  #97  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 6:23 PM
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Three of the four scenarios offered use an extension of the O-Train for the N-S rail line. Is this a reasonable option?

Based on measurements using Google Earth, the O-Train travels about 3.6Km from Bayview to CU, arriving before the north-bound train. Once the other train has arrived, the south-bound train travels about 4.2Km to Greenboro. Total trip time 12 minutes, for an average speed of 39Km/h.

The distance from Greenboro to the airport is about 4.5Km and from there to the Lietrim P&R would be about 4.3Km. These two legs have longer, straighter sections across Greenbelt (without stops) which should allow a slightly faster speed. The turn into the airport will slow the trains a bit. I am aware that none of the O-Train extensions shown include an airport spur, but it might as well be added since siding tracks are being added anyway. (OK this is a bit of a stretch, but why not add the spur if all the equipment is in the area. It adds about 1.3Km in each direction.)

With 3 trainsets (+ spare) and a siding at the airport, the 15 minute frequency could be maintained on an extended O-Train service.

For those interested in the possibilities, it is about 4.5Km from the Lietrim P&R to Riverside South. An extra trainset could extend the line into Riverside South.

Also, it is about 0.6Km from Bayview to Lebreton (so Carleton to Lebreton is about 4.2Km) and about 4.4Km from Lebreton to Lees. Adding another trainset could push the service to Lees Station. Unfortunately, I think it would be pushing it to expect the train to get through downtown to Hurdman (4.9Km) in time. In fact, assuming a slower time through the core, the train might stop at UofO.

Thus, an overall system from RS to UofO should be able to be run at the current 15 minute frequency using the current single line track with four sidings, and of course the tunnel, and 5 trainsets (+ spares). I think one of the biggest problems with the old N/S was the predictability problem due to running the train in mixed traffic. Since this entire line is in a separate RoW, the timing is more stable. Also, the frequency is left at 15 minute service so large amounts of parallel tracking is not needed. A service frequency of 15 minutes should be sufficient for quite a while, especially since the service is supplemented by the SE Transitway. Remember, this train is not going to have many people transfer onto it to get to downtown. It will basically carry what the current O-Train does, with the addition of a few people from Riverside South, once that gets built up.

Since there would be a total of 5 trainsets, plus (2) spares, we would need to find 4 trainsets. We currently have 3. Yes, you can run diesel through a tunnel, but the ventilation will cost more. However, the tracks could be electrified (overhead) and electric LRVs bought. My preference, would be to buy 7 eLRVs and sell our current 3 Talents. These eLRVs would need power, but otherwise could run on the existing and extended tracks.

I would suggest that gradually over the quiet summers, sections of track can be moved over and twinned. It should be possible to do this mostly without disturbing the service. Where structures need to be replaced, there will be breaks in the service.
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  #98  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2008, 8:53 PM
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From today's Citizen:

Stop this runaway train going south

Randall Denley, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Thursday, September 18, 2008

Federal election candidates have been quick to criticize Ottawa's new transit plan. The opportunity to echo what ill-informed people are telling them must be irresistible, but the politicians couldn't be more off base.

The real problem is not that light rail might run along the Ottawa River Parkway or that it won't go to the far reaches of the suburbs, as candidates have said. The big deficiency in this transit plan is that staff are pushing councillors to extend rail south, just the kind of approach that voters rejected in the last municipal election. Look closely at the city's own numbers and you will see that the east-west rail line that voters favour is strongly supported by the facts.

Buried deep on the city's website are all the numbers that one needs to make a rational choice, but the city has done nothing to draw attention to them. Federal candidates should check these numbers before they commit themselves to positions they will regret if elected.

City staff favour a plan that would extend rail to Blair Station in the east and lightly-populated Riverside South. It would include a downtown tunnel. The prime competitor is an east-west line that would go from Blair to Baseline station by way of the downtown tunnel. This plan would also serve the south, with an O-Train extension.

The numbers strongly favour the east-west plan. It would attract the most riders, five million a year more than east-south. The extra ridership means a 10-percentage-point increase in the amount of total transit cost borne by riders. The east-south line gives just five per cent. That's important because it reduces the operating subsidy for the transit system each and every year. The east-west line would carry 25 per cent of all passengers, while the other line would carry only 13 per cent.

East-west has a 50-per-cent lower capital cost per passenger kilometre. It also generates $90 million a year in operating cost savings because it takes more buses off the street. The east-west plan would remove 90 per cent of buses from Albert and Slater streets, twice as much as east-south.

Environmentally, east-west wins hands down. Because it relies more on electric rail, it produces nearly 50 per cent more greenhouse gas reductions. The east-west line also fits within the city's goal of delivering the high-cost rail service inside the Greenbelt, where most of the riders live. That plan would put 86 per cent of new transit infrastructure inside the belt, versus only 48 per cent for east-south.

Given all of that, one would have to ask why staff want to start with the southern route and delay the western leg for another decade. The answer is simply because they can build it now. Most of the studies required are done and the city could gratify those who want instant action.

Deputy city manager Nancy Schepers admits that the southern extension is the "lowest volume line," and calls going against the inside-the-Greenbelt philosophy "an anomaly." What Schepers is really doing is thinking like a politician and trying to please the crowd instead of making a rational recommendation.

The city is also concerned because there is not yet an agreement with the National Capital Commission to permit rail to use 3.5 kilometres of the Ottawa River Parkway. The parkway plan was roundly condemned by all three major Ottawa Centre candidates, who can enjoy the luxury of opposing the western extension and still getting rail in their riding.

To listen to politicians talk, one would think the parkway was a virgin forest. Have they noticed that it's a four-lane road loaded with buses? Switching to trains would eliminate the buses and improve the parkway. The proper way to do it would be to take two of the car lanes and devote them to transit. That would reduce the existing traffic volume on the parkway even more.

The NCC, quite rightly, wants to be persuaded that its property is the best route for a rail line west. That doesn't mean the argument can't be made, and won. The idea that this wrinkle means that people in the west shouldn't get rail until the second decade of the plan is absurd. That's what federal candidates in the west should be talking about.

The east-west line is the top choice in ridership, cost effectiveness, benefit to customers, benefit to the environment, reducing downtown congestion and supporting a compact city. The only areas where it runs second are ease of implementation and conformity to council's confusing transit guidance.

The fact that Ottawa's new transit plan is out for public consultation in the middle of a federal election is rather unfortunate. It invites even more politicians to sound off about a project that has always suffered from an excess of political thinking and a shortage of rational examination. See the facts for yourself at http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/publi.../transit/phase 3 and click on evaluation summary.

Contact Randall Denley at 613-596-3756 or by e-mail, rdenley@thecitizen.canwest.com



© The Ottawa Citizen 2008
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  #99  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2008, 3:46 PM
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Those who will likely support

Bellemare
Jellett
Monette
Bloess
McRae
Hume
Holmes
Bedard
Legendre
O'Brien
Cullen

Those who leans on support

Desroches
Thompson

Harder (while not happy she will support the recommendation - source Barrhaven This week)

Those who will likely support because it will not run on the Parkway for now

Leadman
Deans

Not sure

Feltmate
Qadri
Brooks

Leaning Against

Doucet
El-Chantiry
Chiarelli

Against

Wilkinson
Hunter

Any mistakes? This is mostly based on newspapers, comments and some on past votes. We know that most if not all the East end councillors will be on board. Leadman and Deans had issues because of the Parkway right? Meanwhile I have not placed any west end councillors on the list for now. However, I sense since the project includes some south end wards, it will likely pass probably in the 14-10 to 16-8 range.
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  #100  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2008, 3:55 PM
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Those who will likely support
...

Any mistakes? This is mostly based on newspapers, comments and some on past votes. We know that most if not all the East end councillors will be on board. Leadman and Deans had issues because of the Parkway right? Meanwhile I have not placed any west end councillors on the list for now. However, I sense since the project includes some south end wards, it will likely pass probably in the 14-10 to 16-8 range.

The list sounds reasonable to me...at least off the top of my head.

What I fond so sad about this process and the NSLRT before it, is the council almost voted exclusively based on whether it went through a particular ward or close to..

Monette was one of the very few who have voted differently.
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