What inter-provincial agreement would you MOST like to see in Canada?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Thirdly, the Francophone majority has never been the only established community in Quebec. If, say, I were an Orthodox Jew in Ontario who moves and integrates into the long established Orthodox Jewish community in Montreal, who is to say I haven't integrated into the local culture? Same as if I were an Inuit person from Nunavut who moves to Nunavik, etc..

Nothing like bringing in outlier nano-phenomena to prove your point...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

First, as far as I'm concerned, the freedom of movement and the right to vote are absolutely sacred.

Secondly, I doubt it will fly in the RoC as, well, I don't think we really get the "French-under-threat" thing anymore. Anglophones aren't descending on Quebec to skew/steal votes. In fact, the Anglophone population has been stagnant - if not decreasing - and seemingly more willing to learn to speak French.

(...)

With the language laws in place, there's already enough incentive for someone moving to Quebec to try and adapt to the majority culture. Depriving the vote to the relative few who can't or won't seems a heavy-handed response.

It's less of an issue than it used to be but it was not long ago that it was an issue.

In any event, even if such a thing were put in place, people already living in Quebec would likely be grandfathered into the citizenship whether they speak French or not. And anglophones from the rest of Canada who are resistant to learning French would still enjoy way more services and facilities in English than a Swiss person crossing the language border would in their language.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

FWIW, the Flemish also have measures in place to prevent francophone Bruxelles from invading and taking over Flemish areas (formerly the countryside around it, but nearby enough to easily become suburban communities of the francophone city).

It's even stricter than what we've discussed so far. In some places in Flanders you have to pass a language test in Flemish in order to buy a property that will be your principal residence. And you also have to sign a waiver saying that you won't ask for public services in French, or at least accept that all public services delivered to you will be in Flemish.

Et voilà!

[Acajack]

In Latvia, Russian speakers who were actually born in the country (but during the Soviet era) have to pass a language test in Latvian in order to be citizens of the country they were born in. There are no grandfathered rights there based on being born on Latvian soil. The result is that hundreds of thousands of Russian speakers in Latvia are effectively without any citizenship: they are not citizens of Russia (unless they move there, but then they can't go back to Latvia) nor of Latvia either.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Latvia, Russian speakers who were actually born in the country (but during the Soviet era) have to pass a language test in Latvian in order to be citizens of the country they were born in. There are no grandfathered rights there based on being born on Latvian soil. The result is that hundreds of thousands of Russian speakers in Latvia are effectively without any citizenship: they are not citizens of Russia (unless they move there, but then they can't go back to Latvia) nor of Latvia either.

And is that a good thing???

I am aware of the plight of Russians who inhabit the Baltic countries. They might have been born and raised there, but since the end of the Soviet Union, they have been the victims of xenophobia, and as you say, are essentially stateless (in their own country).

I fail to see how this makes your point……..

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And is that a good thing???

I am aware of the plight of Russians who inhabit the Baltic countries. They might have been born and raised there, but since the end of the Soviet Union, they have been the victims of xenophobia, and as you say, are essentially stateless (in their own country).

I fail to see how this makes your point……..

I never said it was a good thing. Just pointing out how things are done differently in some places. Not always desirably.

Latvia is not a model for the treatment of minorities but on the other hand neither Switzerland nor Belgium would get slammed on an international report card for minority rights. And they both do things quite differently from Canada.

The (current) Canadian way is not the only way.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Secondly, I doubt it will fly in the RoC as, well, I don't think we really get the "French-under-threat" thing anymore. Anglophones aren't descending on Quebec to skew/steal votes. In fact, the Anglophone population has been stagnant - if not decreasing - and seemingly more willing to learn to speak French.

Your other points are good but this one gets at the crux of the matter, i.e. there is no real domestic existential threat to the French language in Quebec anymore. If there was some massive Anglo metropolis skewing Quebec's numbers then perhaps it might make sense, but let's face it... as we have acknowledged elsewhere in the Canada forum, Quebec is off the radar for many interprovincial migrants, and draws mostly French-speaking international immigrants. Importing solutions from Switzerland or Belgium to solve problems that don't exist here is nonsensical to say the least.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by esquire

Your other points are good but this one gets at the crux of the matter, i.e. there is no real domestic existential threat to the French language in Quebec anymore. If there was some massive Anglo metropolis skewing Quebec's numbers then perhaps it might make sense, but let's face it... as we have acknowledged elsewhere in the Canada forum, Quebec is off the radar for many interprovincial migrants, and draws mostly French-speaking international immigrants. Importing solutions from Switzerland or Belgium to solve problems that don't exist here is nonsensical to say the least.

Cue some contrary discussion there, I suspect. A lot depends on there being an ongoing "threat".

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

A couple of pictures to clarify what I mean.

Our old passports (1933-1949):



A current Scottish passport:



I'd love to see Canada adopt a system like that.

Why? What's the point aside from potentially stirring greater provincial pride/nationalism?

Originally Posted by lio45

If they're not going to at least try to adapt a bit, what would be the point of them moving anyway?

Why would any society on this globe want to welcome "immigrants" who aren't interested in ever becoming a part of it?

As Acajack points out, it seems to work fine for the Swiss (and you can't say Switzerland isn't a successful country) to accept to be living under plans "designed to prevent unilingual francophone Swiss from immigrating to Zurich", "designed to prevent unilingual germanophone Swiss from immigrating to Geneva", etc.

FWIW, the Flemish also have measures in place to prevent francophone Bruxelles from invading and taking over Flemish areas (formerly the countryside around it, but nearby enough to easily become suburban communities of the francophone city).

1. It's worth noting that the Swiss are often the exception, rather than the rule. Their history, situation, and political culture is different from ours and just about everyone else's.

2. The Flemish are also functionally their own nation and you don't hear people suggesting a Belgian model for things.

3. For what it's worth, I do see where you and Acajack are coming from.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ever wonder why no one ever copies the Canadian federation's governance structure?

That's an unfair statement.

True, Canada's governance is a left-over from Britain and is generally only found in other Commonwealth countries and constitutional monarchies which are a minority in the world and have been established for some time. However, Canada also faces a unique situation in the form of Quebec. Rarely in the world is there such a geographically, economically, and linguistically large minority within a federation. With such a unique situation, a unique approach is required which is why so many other nations (who are largely unitary republics) don't copy our governance structure because our government structure has been developed to deal with our unique situation.

As a side note, it's also worth noting that our Constitution has been used for inspiration at the very least.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/charte...tter-1.1216350
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4100561/
http://www.slaw.ca/2012/04/15/canada...al-superpower/

Originally Posted by Acajack

Once again - that's only your view. Even today, voting in provincial and municipal elections when you move between Canadian provinces is not automatic and often requires a waiting period plus proving residency and other stuff.

So then why bother? Where is the issue?

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Cue some contrary discussion there, I suspect. A lot depends on there being an ongoing "threat".

To be fair, a lot of those who perceive a "threat" are the ones who felt threatened by the word "pasta" and the spoons at Menchie's.

[kwoldtimer]

[QUOTE=Jamaican-Phoenix;6737568].......

As a side note, it's also worth noting that our Constitution has been used for inspiration at the very least.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/charte...tter-1.1216350
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4100561/
http://www.slaw.ca/2012/04/15/canada...al-superpower/


.....QUOTE]

Those favourable articles relate to the Charter, not to the entire Constitution. Apart from the Charter and equalization payments, Canada's constitutional arrangements are not a model for others looking for "good constitutions".

[ScreamingViking]

Trade.

I find it odd (and unfortunate) that while we try to build free trade agreements with other places in the world to grow our economy, we fail to achieve the same thing internally. It's an obvious win that should not be that hard to achieve.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I am aware of the plight of Russians who inhabit the Baltic countries. They might have been born and raised there, but since the end of the Soviet Union, they have been the victims of xenophobia, and as you say, are essentially stateless (in their own country).

No Russians can be "stateless"; Russia exists.

Germans from Silesia, East Pomerania, East Prussia would nowadays pretty much have to be fluent in Polish or Russian (... they'd also be quite old at the moment) to function in daily life if they'd managed to insist on remaining where they, their parents, their grandparents, etc. have been born and raised.

When borders change, if you don't move to follow your country, then things might get different for you... it's kinda normal.

Alternatively, I suppose Putin's troops could move in and take Latvia in order to protect the oppressed Russian minority there, and reverse the inbalance...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

1. It's worth noting that the Swiss are often the exception, rather than the rule. Their history, situation, and political culture is different from ours and just about everyone else's.

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

However, Canada also faces a unique situation in the form of Quebec. Rarely in the world is there such a geographically, economically, and linguistically large minority within a federation. With such a unique situation, a unique approach is required which is why so many other nations (who are largely unitary republics) don't copy our governance structure because our government structure has been developed to deal with our unique situation.

Seems to me that we could agree that Canada and Switzerland are both exceptions with unique situations... that aren't that dissimilar, actually.

Regarding the threat, though, it's certainly still there. The U.S. + Anglo Canada have the world's lingua franca as their language; with Quebec's position and weight in a North American context, we'd almost certainly be like Louisiana language-wise in a few generations if languages were left to their own devices.

And FYI... very very very few people feel threatened by the word "pasta" (and anything else on that level).

I produced an engineering document lately (and worked on a follow up document today). Mainly for an engineer who is like me a francophone Québécois. His office is right here in Trois-Rivières (I say right here as I'm mostly in Bécancour these days). I wrote the entire document in English because I might have to also share it with our supplier's engineer in Oklahoma. The Trois-Rivières engineer and myself ended up discussing that unilingual English document. The follow up document though I wrote in French (slightly easier for me with scientific language), deciding I'd take the risk of maybe having to translate (it's much less likely that the follow up will have to be sent to Oklahoma).

Quebec isn't an isolated bubble... we have strong economic ties to the rest of this continent, and as I just did, one Québécois will sometimes communicate with another Québécois in English just because it's easier/safer to craft the document only once.

Was the same thing back at uni... Université de Sherbrooke is a purely francophone university, but my group would often publish in English only as they didn't want to have to do the extra work of making it bilingual.

This "slippery slope" is common to all receding/vanishing languages, it's a process that's easy enough to identify... without the measures you guys seem to dislike so much, "we" would basically be gone as a people in a few generations. I think they make sense and are worth it. We (Acajack and I) offered as "proof" of that the fact that other countries (Switzerland, Belgium) have decided to have measures too... while places that didn't (Louisiana) lost a good deal of what they used to be.

P.S. I'm writing this in English, AND am again dating an unilingual Anglo (albeit a different one ) at the moment.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Seems to me that we could agree that Canada and Switzerland are both exceptions with unique situations... that aren't that dissimilar, actually.

Regarding the threat, though, it's certainly still there. The U.S. + Anglo Canada have the world's lingua franca as their language; with Quebec's position and weight in a North American context, we'd almost certainly be like Louisiana language-wise in a few generations if languages were left to their own devices.

And FYI... very very very few people feel threatened by the word "pasta" (and anything else on that level).

I produced an engineering document lately (and worked on a follow up document today). Mainly for an engineer who is like me a francophone Québécois. His office is right here in Trois-Rivières (I say right here as I'm mostly in Bécancour these days). I wrote the entire document in English because I might have to also share it with our supplier's engineer in Oklahoma. The Trois-Rivières engineer and myself ended up discussing that unilingual English document. The follow up document though I wrote in French (slightly easier for me with scientific language), deciding I'd take the risk of maybe having to translate (it's much less likely that the follow up will have to be sent to Oklahoma).

Quebec isn't an isolated bubble... we have strong economic ties to the rest of this continent, and as I just did, one Québécois will sometimes communicate with another Québécois in English just because it's easier/safer to craft the document only once.

Was the same thing back at uni... Université de Sherbrooke is a purely francophone university, but my group would often publish in English only as they didn't want to have to do the extra work of making it bilingual.

This "slippery slope" is common to all receding/vanishing languages, it's a process that's easy enough to identify... without the measures you guys seem to dislike so much, "we" would basically be gone as a people in a few generations. I think they make sense and are worth it. We (Acajack and I) offered as "proof" of that the fact that other countries (Switzerland, Belgium) have decided to have measures too... while places that didn't (Louisiana) lost a good deal of what they used to be.

P.S. I'm writing this in English, AND am again dating an unilingual Anglo (albeit a different one ) at the moment.

And yet look at the trouble Couillard got into (albeit briefly and without lingering effect) when he made the perfectly obvious point during the Quebec election campaign that Quebeckers need to improve their English skill. Behind the political theatre of the reactions there was a lingering problem, I believe.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

And yet look at the trouble Couillard got into (albeit briefly and without lingering effect) when he made the perfectly obvious point during the Quebec election campaign that Quebeckers need to improve their English skill.

I would actually say the general level of English among francophones in the province is pretty satisfying... not sure why a major improvement would be considered "needed"...?

I mean, sure, decent English opens doors, obviously... most of my friends are at worst pretty good with it and many of them have to do part of their jobs in English (speaking with North American Anglos but also Chinese, Germans, Russians... in English).

But the way he said it then wasn't a very astute political move. To my knowledge he's never said it again...

[ssiguy]

1} Marriage........... Divorce is federal but marriage is still 10 different provincial matters. Absurd! Marriage should be under federal jurisdiction.

2} Total free trade.........eg Here I can buy wine and spirits from every country on the planet, except Canada. BC wines are fine but if you want something from Ont or Nova Scotia you are out of luck.

3} Trade certification.......writing tests so you can teach in one province or another, you couldn't make this stuff up.

4} Services for the Disabled.......the feds already fund much of the resources to the disabled thru transfer payments and CPP. I can see welfare being provincial as it is {suppose} to help people temporarily and help them get back to work obviously locally. The Disabled are different were there is no such expectation so they should have mobility and not be afraid to move elsewhere or lose their benefits.

I think this whole conversation exemplifies how disjointed Canada is and how little the federal government is involved in government. Reality is, except for defense/foreign affairs, nearly all programs and services which effect citizens are provided provincially or municipally. Even laws made by the feds are often not enforced if the provinces or cities don't want to like the stupid new prostitution law...............not a jurisdiction in the country will enforce that law as things will continue as they did before. Same goes for drugs. This is especially true in Quebec and Ontario where they have provincial police.

In Ontario and Quebec the only thing you think of when you hear RCMP is the musical ride. The first time I left the province I was 19 and I went to BC. I remember how shocked I was that there were RCMP officers and I was absolutely floored to see that they weren't in their usual red and black uniforms with their tall hats. It had never even occurred to me that the RCMP was a "real" police force.

This, dare I say, detachment from the RCMP in those 2 provinces has left the enforcement of nearly all laws up to the local or provincial police. In other words, they enforce what THEY want to and feel is important and simple ignore one's they don't agree with like prostitution, pot, speeding or even more important issues such as assisted suicide which the government is against but is up to the provincial police to actually lay charges.

[Stingray2004]

Inter-provincial barriers on the sale of wine has received considerable media attention in BC over the years.

For example, BC's Okanagan Valley population roughly doubles during the summer months with tourists. And a good chunk of those come from Alberta. With the considerable amount of wineries in the region, many Albertan's purchase boxes of Okanagan wine prior to returning to AB.

Can't blame 'em, esp. when USA Today recently voted the Okanagan Valley as the "World's 2nd Best Wine Region".

http://okanaganlife.com/usa-today-re...p-wine-region/

But what happens when they traverse the BC-AB boundary? Their transport of BC wine into AB is illegal!

Only last month did BC and SK come to an agreement to remove that barrier. Still leaves AB in-between.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wine...ewan-1.2750311

And then we have ON continuing with the protectionism of its wine industry refusing to lower their inter-provincial trade barriers. Ergo, it's a helluva lot easier to purchase foreign wines in BC than an ON wine. Shouldn't be the case.

http://blogs.theprovince.com/2014/09...-c-wine-sales/

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

One country, one citizenship, two nations and 10 provinces........

I agree, the less red tape the better.

Well, lets not forget about the First Nations, the Acadian, and possibly the Newfoundlanders.

And these are just the founding nations!

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

At the moment, you are considered a Quebec resident if you've lived here for six months. You don't have to demonstrate a willingness to integrate into your community or know a lick of French in order to vote.

Just as an example, several of my former neighbours voted in the 1995 referendum by virtue of Canadian citizenship obtained in Ontario in prior years and having resided (more or less in some cases) in Quebec for six months. They knew zero French and zero about Quebec history, culture and society.

All of them to a man, woman and child are living in other parts of Canada today, or the United States. Or Dubai or somewhere like that.

Ah, yes, the ethnic votes.

[saffronleaf]

Quebec should tax newcomers who don't speak French until they are fluent in French. International newcomers can pay 2x the tax they would otherwise pay. ROCers can pay 3x the tax they would otherwise pay. Government workers should be armed with tasers, in case anyone dare ask for public services to be rendered in a language other than French.