BC Provincial Government Housing Policies 2023

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Metrotown will always be the second downtown. Metrotown is the second busiest skytrain station. Surrey is just a handful of apartment buildings with zero attractions.

Metrotown was once the same. And it's already starting to get boring again now that Brentwood's open.

Surrey's population is set to eclipse Burnaby's, they're likely to concentrate around Newton-Guildford and Fleetwood, they're likely to pull in more and more amenities as the area densifies... and once that happens, the whole Central Burnaby area becomes an in-between. How many universities, hospitals or (possible) HSR stations does Metrotown have?

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

....Surrey's population is set to eclipse Burnaby's....

Did you mean something else? Surrey's population is more than twice Burnaby's.

[logan5]

He meant Vancouver, but I don't think that is going to happen now that so much of Vancouver is going to be zoned high density. Vancouver will probly start to pull away from Surrey in the coming decades.

[GlassCity]

Policy manuals are out, but not regulations (yet): https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2023HOUS0171-001945

For the SSMUH ('plexes), it's interesting food for thought I guess and does clear up some questions, but the big one still remains: it doesn't sound like these site standards will be binding, so there's nothing stopping municipalities from keeping existing zoning regulations as they are (designed around single-detached homes) and keeping many lots unviable for additional units. Really hope there are more teeth in the regulation, and that that's released asap.

The TOD Policy Manual is much flashier, as it actually lists the specific stations and bus exchanges that as of TODAY must allow up to the new height and density maxes, and prohibit requiring residential parking minimums.

[WarrenC12]

We have one downtown and several "town centres". Perhaps that explains why everyone is confused which one is the "2nd downtown".

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Policy manuals are out, but not regulations (yet): https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2023HOUS0171-001945

For the SSMUH ('plexes), it's interesting food for thought I guess and does clear up some questions, but the big one still remains: it doesn't sound like these site standards will be binding, so there's nothing stopping municipalities from keeping existing zoning regulations as they are (designed around single-detached homes) and keeping many lots unviable for additional units. Really hope there are more teeth in the regulation, and that that's released asap.

The TOD Policy Manual is much flashier, as it actually lists the specific stations and bus exchanges that as of TODAY must allow up to the new height and density maxes, and prohibit requiring residential parking minimums.

If municipal policy is too restrictive for SSMUH it can be overruled by the Province. In which case, I assume they will impose

the regulations shown in the guidelines.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

[Metrotown]'s already starting to get boring again now that Brentwood's open.

What does this even mean? Nothing significant changed in Metrotown since *The Amazing Brentwood* opened up

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Surrey's population is set to eclipse Burnaby's, they're likely to concentrate around Newton-Guildford and Fleetwood, they're likely to pull in more and more amenities as the area densifies... and once that happens, the whole Central Burnaby area becomes an in-between.

I guess you mean Central Surrey / Whalley is set to surpass Metrotown? I don't know if this is even true. Metrotown has a lot of room to grow, especially with the new TOD laws passed, which significantly expands the Metrotown area, especially south of Imperial and around Royal Oak station. Metrotown can easily add another 50k people, and new developers would rather build in Burnaby than in Surrey.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

How many universities, hospitals or (possible) HSR stations does Metrotown have?

No universities (arguably Downtown Vancouver doesn't have either, just small campuses for the big three universities, nothing actually central), but it does have BCIT next door, which is one bus stop away on the 222, and will get BRT soon, eventually a Skytrain to the North Shore. Hospitals? Downtown Vancouver is soon to have none too, lol. HSR? We'll see when it's actually built.

Metrotown will have something non-debatable that Surrey doesn't, the tallest building in BC.

Something subjective is that Metrotown has great urban parks. Central Park is one square kilometre of a mix of forest, open green space, ponds, a pool, playgrounds, tennis courts, etc, served by the Skytrain. On the other side it has Deer Lake Park, which is more of a wild park, but has Shadbolt which regularly hosts music events. The only thing comparable to Central Park in Whalley is Holland Park (which is tiny), and comparable to Deer Lake is Green Timbers (which is nice, but Deer Lake outsold).

What Metrotown does lack are bars and a nightlife.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Metrotown has a lot of room to grow, especially with the new TOD laws passed, which significantly expands the Metrotown area, especially south of Imperial and around Royal Oak station.

What Metrotown does lack are bars and a nightlife.

The expansion around Royal Oak is pretty undeniable, but technically most of the 400m catchment is outside of the Metrotown plan and the 800m mid-rise catchment has been zoned taller by said plan.

The expansion south of Imperial is pretty minimal. At 800m we're talking a handful of midrises between Imperial and Victory, and McKay and Gray.

I think this is why the pedestrian-orientated stretch along Silver Drive is so lively at night. All those restaurants - Earl's, Cactus, The Dolar Shop, and Kokoro - are open late and J.J. Bean is open fairly late for a cafe except on Fridays. That definitely beats the Crystal Mall food court or Isami Sushi, which is one of my favourite restaurants in the area but closes so, so early.

Something that confuses me is whether Burnaby does not want more late-night options along Beresford, or if developers haven't provided units appropriate for these uses. I love Pizza Garden as much as the next guy, but I always thought sprawling patios along that street especially considering the pleasant pedestrian environment would be great. Maybe we'll get more evening-orientated options along Kingsway.

[djmk]

Metrotown is a cultural dead zone. 34K people live in the area and not a single place to listen to a live band. And the nearest theater is over a km away and attached to a high school that feels that it's in a middle or a suburban parking lot.

Bonsor is a nice space (albeit aging) but its attached to a "all weather" gravel field that is gross.

There is not a single cool place to grab a beer

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

[...]

The TOD Policy Manual is much flashier, as it actually lists the specific stations and bus exchanges that as of TODAY must allow up to the new height and density maxes, and prohibit requiring residential parking minimums.

Small but important quibble: Bill 47 is just on its first reading. Until it receives Royal Assent, it isn't in force.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

What does this even mean? Nothing significant changed in Metrotown since *The Amazing Brentwood* opened up

I guess you mean Central Surrey / Whalley is set to surpass Metrotown? I don't know if this is even true. Metrotown has a lot of room to grow, especially with the new TOD laws passed, which significantly expands the Metrotown area, especially south of Imperial and around Royal Oak station...

That’s the point: Metrotown didn’t change... but Brentwood did. Ditto Oakridge and Lougheed as we speak. It used to be that Metrotown was the cool kid on the block and all the other malls were cheap substitutes, but it’s becoming the opposite (if not already).

So does Surrey, and they’ve got the guts - or greed, it’s a tossup - to challenge their NIMBYs. South of Imperial and all around Royal Oak is SFHs, and unlike Vancouver or Surrey, Burnaby City Council is too scared to touch those; they only got around to allowing laneways this year, and only because Victoria forced their hand.

More desirable mainly because Burnaby's got malls and SkyTrain lines. Surrey's soon to follow.

Originally Posted by BaddieB

- snip -

Yet downtown per se will still have two hospitals adjacent to it; technically, the Metro Core includes both VGH and the new St Paul’s. By comparison, BCIT and Burnaby Hospital aren’t close to their downtown at all (though TBF neither is Kwantlen Surrey).

So? Is everybody going to come from all over the city to visit a tall condo tower? They’re sure not doing that for Gilmore – that area’s dead as a doornail. At least Paradox and Shangri-La have food and entertainment.

Surrey’s also got Bear Creek and Green Timbers, though it doesn’t really have a nightlife either; all the suburbs seem to be more or less on the same foot in that regard.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Metrotown was once the same. And it's already starting to get boring again now that Brentwood's open.

Surrey's population is set to eclipse Burnaby's, they're likely to concentrate around Newton-Guildford and Fleetwood, they're likely to pull in more and more amenities as the area densifies... and once that happens, the whole Central Burnaby area becomes an in-between.

There's going to be quite a while until that actually happens.
In the meantime, it's not like the Metrotown area itself is just standing pat with nothing happening.
Once a lot of the developments around the mall and adjacent to Kingsway get built out (specifically the Concord Sears one and Anthem's various projects), they'll likely bring along with them more retail opportunities and amenities to complement what's in the mall itself.

And besides which, the mall itself - whatever you think of it - will always ensure that Metrotown is anything but an "in-between".

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

How many universities, hospitals or (possible) HSR stations does Metrotown have?

Does it need them, though?
Does it need a university given the close proximity of BCIT and the SFU campuses in the rest of the Burnaby region?

Not every city or town center has to be everything for everyone.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

The expansion around Royal Oak is pretty undeniable, but technically most of the 400m catchment is outside of the Metrotown plan and the 800m mid-rise catchment has been zoned taller by said plan.

The expansion south of Imperial is pretty minimal. At 800m we're talking a handful of midrises between Imperial and Victory, and McKay and Gray.

I think this is why the pedestrian-orientated stretch along Silver Drive is so lively at night. All those restaurants - Earl's, Cactus, The Dolar Shop, and Kokoro - are open late and J.J. Bean is open fairly late for a cafe except on Fridays. That definitely beats the Crystal Mall food court or Isami Sushi, which is one of my favourite restaurants in the area but closes so, so early.

Something that confuses me is whether Burnaby does not want more late-night options along Beresford, or if developers haven't provided units appropriate for these uses. I love Pizza Garden as much as the next guy, but I always thought sprawling patios along that street especially considering the pleasant pedestrian environment would be great. Maybe we'll get more evening-orientated options along Kingsway.

That was supposed to be the original plan or at least part of their original vision in turning Beresford into a sort of Art walk with the kind of cafes and patio areas that you'd find adjacent.

The city's been kind of reticent and lacking in any urgency in pushing those plans through, and I guess a large part of it would involve some impetus from the developers actually building those towers alongside Beresford.

But even with Central Avenue, it's only recently that the city's picked up the original plan to demolish that derelict pedestrian walkway bridge that was left over when the Skytrain station was upgraded - with still no plans for a replacement bridge.

I too think that Kingsway might be a better bet for getting more evening-orientated and nightlife options - particularly once the Concord towers get built out (hopefully) and Anthem's Citizen down the road.
As much as arterials like Kingsway tend to kill pedestrian vibrancy, I feel like Beresford and the south side of the Mall is plagued by the fact that it's adjacent to the residential district of Maywood, and you're probably going to get pushback from people living there if you try to facilitate more nightlife options and late-night amenities.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

There's going to be quite a while until that actually happens.
In the meantime, it's not like the Metrotown area itself is just standing pat with nothing happening.
Once a lot of the developments around the mall and adjacent to Kingsway get built out (specifically the Concord Sears one and Anthem's various projects), they'll likely bring along with them more retail opportunities and amenities to complement what's in the mall itself.

And besides which, the mall itself - whatever you think of it - will always ensure that Metrotown is anything but an "in-between".

Eh, given the results after the first decade of rezoning, I'm not holding my breath. A few scattered cafes and dentists does not a streetscape make, and City Hall just killed its convention centre plan due to cost.

Maybe. Like I've said previously, Metrotown's got competition now... and they might even be better. Burnaby will likely need to step their game up.

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

Does it need them, though?
Does it need a university given the close proximity of BCIT and the SFU campuses in the rest of the Burnaby region?

Not every city or town center has to be everything for everyone.

Meaning that downtown Surrey can draw a large variety of foot traffic whether or not the malls do well. With Metrotown, it's just mall, library, end of story; if the mall falls behind, they're in trouble.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by djmk

Metrotown is a cultural dead zone. 34K people live in the area and not a single place to listen to a live band. And the nearest theater is over a km away and attached to a high school that feels that it's in a middle or a suburban parking lot.

Bonsor is a nice space (albeit aging) but its attached to a "all weather" gravel field that is gross.

There is not a single cool place to grab a beer

This might help a bit...

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Eh, given the results after the first decade of rezoning, I'm not holding my breath. A few scattered cafes and dentists does not a streetscape make, and City Hall just killed its convention centre plan due to cost.

Maybe. Like I've said previously, Metrotown's got competition now... and they might even be better. Burnaby will likely need to step their game up.



Meaning that downtown Surrey can draw a large variety of foot traffic whether or not the malls do well. With Metrotown, it's just mall, library, end of story; if the mall falls behind, they're in trouble.

That's a big "if".

Not saying that it can never happen, but people (particularly on these forums) having been rooting for its failure or downfall or break up for as long as I can remember and it still remains one of the most foot-trafficked malls not just in the province but in all of Canada, with a smaller per sq.ft. annual gross sales revenue generated figure than Pacific Center only because of its comparatively vastly larger size in area.

[Migrant_Coconut]

That's fair. What I'm trying to get at though is how you need more than one mall, no matter how successful, to generate a downtown. Where's the offices? Where's the stadium or convention centres (or other cultural/events spaces)? Universities and hospitals are definitely off the table.

Surrey's got big plans, so if they manage one or more of the above and Metrotown's still a bedroom community based around a single mall, I don't see them keeping their #2.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's fair. What I'm trying to get at though is how you need more than one mall, no matter how successful, to generate a downtown. Where's the offices? Where's the stadium or convention centres (or other cultural/events spaces)? Universities and hospitals are definitely off the table.

Metrotown has Crystal Mall and Station Square as well, and there are three office towers at Metrotown (Metrotower I, II, and III).

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Um, No.

If you live in the River District perhaps it is thought of as a downtown but I can assure you nobody from Vancouver or Richmond is thinking of New West as a "second downtown". The comment I get when I go there with friends is "why are there so many bridal dress places here?"

New West is the only other truly urban core in metro vancouver.

Towers =/= urban. You need walkable streets, less car traffic, large wide sidewalks, and density to be urban.
Whalley is a bunch of condo buildings next to a train station, it's not urban, it's a nightmare experience for pedestrians.
Metrotown is just a giant mall, no one goes there for anything else BUT the mall, it's also not a downtown.

Other contender for an urban downtown would be the part of richmond covered by the canada line. Lower lonsdale, stuff like that.
Surrey is still DECADES from being the regions second downtown and it will likely never happen in our life times as Metrotown will become that far before whalley does.

[Migrant_Coconut]

If walkability, reduced traffic and dense streetscape are qualifiers (and they should be), No. 3 Road ain't it - the whole place is still just as much carmageddon as Kingsway, if not more.

Columbia Street and 6th-8th are better, but not by much; any suburb which pushes for TOD fast and hard will easily surpass it.