CFL in the Maritimes

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by q12

Moncton should be happy with the CFL games they have hosted and not feel cheated if a CFL team does land in Halifax one day. However the reality-distortion field will likely continue to feed the ridiculous idea that Moncton could support a CFL team in the foreseeable future.

That's a bit needlessly confrontational, but I agree with the rest of what you said. Either city should be happy to have a CFL team in the region, regardless of it's location.

[MonctonRad]

Who would've thought that this thread would ever reach 1,000 posts.....

We're catching up to the PEI thread!

[Monctoncore]

Whatever the city is doing, spending money to attract events or not, sometimes you have to spend money to make money...

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Monctoncore

Whatever the city is doing, spending money to attract events or not, sometimes you have to spend money to make money...

And even if this doesn't generate enough revenues to provide a return on this secret spending -- it should at least buy votes.

Yay! Everyone's happy.

[Shinook]

Originally Posted by q12

Moncton should be happy with the CFL games they have hosted and not feel cheated if a CFL team does land in Halifax one day. However the reality-distortion field will likely continue to feed the ridiculous idea that Moncton could support a CFL team in the foreseeable future.

I agree. The successful future of a CFL team in Atlantic Canada lies within it's largest urban centre, Halifax. Not a city with a metro of 140K. To me, that is just rediculous, wishful thinking on the parts of some.

[Monctoncore]

I was not saying I agree with te cities spending, nor are they buying my votes , I was pointing out the obvious... In all honesty, I don't think the cfl decides based on city size, there is a reason why there is a team in Saskatchewan, because it draws from more than just Regina or Saskatoon, it draws from both and all around them... So saying Halifax is a better fit because they have the population is just ludacris.. I'm not arguing, no matter who got the cfl team, I'd still support it and feel Halifax could see the team before Moncton but Moncton is a central location being 2 hours from Saint John, Fredericton, miramichi, Charlottetown and 2.5 fom Halifax .. That's a large population. If they want a quick profit and team support Halifax is a good spot, but if they are willing to wait and let things play out Moncton would work.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Monctoncore

I was not saying I agree with te cities spending, nor are they buying my votes , I was pointing out the obvious... In all honesty, I don't think the cfl decides based on city size, there is a reason why there is a team in Saskatchewan, because it draws from more than just Regina or Saskatoon, it draws from both and all around them... So saying Halifax is a better fit because they have the population is just ludacris.. I'm not arguing, no matter who got the cfl team, I'd still support it and feel Halifax could see the team before Moncton but Moncton is a central location being 2 hours from Saint John, Fredericton, miramichi, Charlottetown and 2.5 fom Halifax .. That's a large population. If they want a quick profit and team support Halifax is a good spot, but if they are willing to wait and let things play out Moncton would work.

This is a bit of a misconception. The Roughriders actually draw almost entirely (>75%) from metro Regina, I think the average attendance from outside of the 2 major urban areas is something like 5-10%.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Monctoncore

Whatever the city is doing, spending money to attract events or not, sometimes you have to spend money to make money...

Yes, but you when asked how much (other people's) money you're spending to make money, sometimes "it's a secret! " isn't an appropriate response.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Yes, but you when asked how much (other people's) money you're spending to make money, sometimes "it's a secret! " isn't an appropriate response.

I don't think the mayor has actually ever said it's a "secret".

The CFL game is anticipated to generate about $6M in economic activity, at least some of which will trickle back to city and provincial coffers in terms of tax revenues. In addition are the intangible benefits of generating more recognition of Moncton on the national stage. This is no different than spending money on tourism advertising.

Lord knows that NB needs a higher national profile. I imagine there are lots of folks in Ontario that would think you are from New Jersey if you said you were from New Brunswick.

Overall, I think it is probably money well spent. I'm sure the economic activity generated will be greater than the cost of hosting the game.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Hali87

This is a bit of a misconception. The Roughriders actually draw almost entirely (>75%) from metro Regina, I think the average attendance from outside of the 2 major urban areas is something like 5-10%.

While that's true, merchandise sales has also been a huge story for the Riders over the last few years, and the Rider store in Saskatoon sells on par with the Regina stores. It's important not only for the bottom line, but also for the visibility of the team.

Also my guess is that this year the expanded capacity of ~45k starting at Labour Day will result in quite a bit more out of town attendance. Out of town attendance went on a bit of a decline when the Riders started regularly selling out in 2007. People could no longer just decide during the week to make a trip and go to a game on the weekend, it had to be something that was planned well ahead of time because it would be iffy if tickets would be available.

Although I had season tickets when I lived in Stoon, it's hard for most people to give that commitment since it involves a 2 hour drive both ways, plus the game, and then worrying aboutif the games would be scheduled in such a way that you'd have to take off work, etc. I remember leaving school early some Fridays when I was young so that we could make it to the game; not all parents would do that...

----

But on the Moncton front, I'll also add that Moncton's and New Brunswick's visibility has increased here due to the Touchdown Atlantics. We almost never hear about NB (and definitely never Moncton) in the news, and just hosting those games has raised the awareness of the area, and when the rumour of the Riders playing there this year was floating around, I heard quite a few people talking about making a trip out East for a trip including the game. Just some observations/ramblings of an outsider... If part of the goal of hosting was to raise the profile of Moncton, it's worked.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nathan

Although I had season tickets when I lived in Stoon, it's hard for most people to give that commitment since it involves a 2 hour drive both ways, plus the game, and then worrying aboutif the games would be scheduled in such a way that you'd have to take off work, etc. I remember leaving school early some Fridays when I was young so that we could make it to the game; not all parents would do that...

It seems pretty clear that, all else being equal, a person living in the same town as the stadium is going to have a much, much bigger impact on ticket sales than somebody living 2 hours away. The Regina case suggests that the impact is at least one order of magnitude. It's even worse in rural areas or places that are farther away.

If we assume that it's easy to sell merchandise or get viewers in towns 2 or 3 hours away then we can just factor that out of the discussion, because it would have no impact on deciding which town would make the most money for a hypothetical team.

The argument that Moncton is more central and has more of a regional market isn't actually very strong. It's much easier for most people in Nova Scotia to get to Halifax and Nova Scotia has half of the population of the Maritimes. About 1/3 of the population of the whole region lives within an hour or so of Halifax (the central NS counties have 620,000 people).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

It seems pretty clear that, all else being equal, a person living in the same town as the stadium is going to have a much, much bigger impact on ticket sales than somebody living 2 hours away. The Regina case suggests that the impact is at least one order of magnitude.

There is no question that the majority of ticket sales will be generated in the host city. No one will dispute this. Regina however is successful with a metro population of only 210k, which is not "orders of magnitude" different than Moncton (CMA pop 144k and growing).

Originally Posted by someone123

The argument that Moncton is more central and has more of a regional market isn't actually very strong. It's much easier for most people in Nova Scotia to get to Halifax and Nova Scotia has half of the population of the Maritimes. About 1/3 of the population of the whole region lives within an hour or so of Halifax (the central NS counties have 620,000 people).

It is undoubtedly true that NS has half the population of the Maritimes, but it is also very true that the other half does not live in NS, and that about 42% of those people live in NB. The other 8% live in PEI, with almost all of those living within a 90 minute drive of Moncton.

I agree that the majority of Nova Scotian's live in the central part of the province near Halifax. You have no arguement from me there.

I suppose that the comparable area to your "central Nova Scotia counties" would be the three counties in the Moncton area (Westmoreland/Albert/Kent). This is a geographically smaller area than your central NS counties and contains about 205,000 people. I think it would be fair to throw in Cumberland County NS because in many ways, Cumberland falls in the economic sphere of Moncton and the vast majority of the county's population is within an hour of the city. Amherst itself is only 40 minutes from Moncton. This increaes our "central county" population to about 245,000.

Even without going further afield, to Charlottetown, Fredericton, Miramichi etc, our immediate catchment population still compares very favourably to Regina, which is interesting since this is the city and team that the commissioner feels that we should be emulating in terms of an economic model.

Please note that I am not trying to downplay the very significant challenges in obtaining a CFL team for the hub city. Moncton would have to be very smart in marketing the team throughout the region. We have already done this with the Touchdown Atlantic games, with things like team appearances and training camps in places like Charlottetown.

Would Halifax be so aggressive in marketing the team throughout the entire region? My gut feeling is that they wouldn't. Halifax has a very narrow vision of the Maritimes, and tends not to give much consideration to places beyond Kentville, Bridgewater or the Cobequid Pass. A Halifax CFL team would likely only be just that - a CFL team for Halifax. I doubt that you would see the Halifax Schooners make any special appearances in places like Summerside, Saint John or Edmundston.

In any event, this is a project for the long haul. Considering ownership and stadium issues, it will be 10-15 years before any regional team comes to fruition. By the time it happens, I'll likely be too old to go to the games!!

[q12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is no question that the majority of ticket sales will be generated in the host city. No one will dispute this. Regina however is successful with a metro population of only 210k, which is not "orders of magnitude" different than Moncton (CMA pop 144k and growing).

2012 estimates are Regina at 226,312 versus Moncton at 142,966k. The difference of 83k is almost the population of Fredericton. Still significant.

Another thing to consider is what areas of the province are growing. In Nova Scotia that entire 620k+ area around Halifax is a growing area not just HRM. This is going to matter in the long run when trying to operate a franchise.


http://www.cbc.ca/ns/news/interactives/2011census/

The growing green around Halifax is over 200k.

In any event, this is a project for the long haul. Considering ownership and stadium issues, it will be 10-15 years before any regional team comes to fruition. By the time it happens, I'll likely be too old to go to the games!!

You're never too old to watch live sports.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I don't think the mayor has actually ever said it's a "secret".

Of course not. That would be him making an acknowledgement. When politicians keep secrets, they tend not to call them as such. It's much better to wait for the public to stop caring.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Overall, I think it is probably money well spent. I'm sure the economic activity generated will be greater than the cost of hosting the game.

There is absolutely no way to know. This is economic blind faith.

[sjuser23]

IMO all the talk about Halifax vs Moncton vs. Windor or Oromocto or wherever is short sighted. I don't think any of these places will support a team on their own and the best bet for attracting a team to our market is to define the market differently. Make it a Maritime franchise, potential with MARTIME Hosers or whatever but don't name the potential team after any city. You need the market to be from all the maritime provinces so stop focusing on Halifax team vs Moncton team unless you're goal is to not succeed. You need to draw corporate interest from Halifax, Saint John, Moncton and Fredericton to have the backing you need and you're more likely to get support from all 4 major cities if you define your market that way. Sticking to your artificial lines drawn by some boundary dude back before anyone knew better is immature and short sighted if your goal is a CFL franchise.

Start working together, collaborate on names for a MARITIME franchise, talk about how to involve the entire market through pre-season games, traning camps etc...

[Trevor3]

Originally Posted by sjuser23

IMO all the talk about Halifax vs Moncton vs. Windor or Oromocto or wherever is short sighted. I don't think any of these places will support a team on their own and the best bet for attracting a team to our market is to define the market differently. Make it a Maritime franchise, potential with MARTIME Hosers or whatever but don't name the potential team after any city. You need the market to be from all the maritime provinces so stop focusing on Halifax team vs Moncton team unless you're goal is to not succeed. You need to draw corporate interest from Halifax, Saint John, Moncton and Fredericton to have the backing you need and you're more likely to get support from all 4 major cities if you define your market that way. Sticking to your artificial lines drawn by some boundary dude back before anyone knew better is immature and short sighted if your goal is a CFL franchise.

Start working together, collaborate on names for a MARITIME franchise, talk about how to involve the entire market through pre-season games, traning camps etc...

This has generally been the idea from Day 1. Actually, going back to the Atlantic Schooners that never were, way back in the day, a regional team was essentially the plan. However, the team has to play in one city because there is only going to be one CFL calibre stadium built. That is where the conundrum comes in.

You can situate the team in Halifax, the most highly populated city in the Maritimes, or you set up in Moncton which is as centrally located as you can get. After all, its nickname is the "Hub" city. A team in Moncton could pull form all three major New Brunswick cities, PEI and Halifax. A team in Halifax would probably draw more directly just on Halifax, mainland Nova Scotia and Moncton.

Corporate support is a big deal for sure. Personally, I think there is a higher chance of getting that business community support in Moncton than Halifax. The reason is that because Moncton is more centrally located within the maritimes businesses from outside the city would be more inclined to advertise their brand through the team than if it were located in Halifax where there is less of a chance of reaching its home client base. A Saint John company could reach potential customers on the ground in Moncton, but not so much in Halifax.

The only reason Moncton is in this conversation is because we're looking at it (and so is the CFL) as a Maritime regional franchise. If this were one city's team, the conversation would have shifted to whether or not Halifax will build a stadium long ago.

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The Moncton Stadium is a quality facility - if you consider the track and the inner field. The track surface is a top of the line Mondo track, identical to the one in the bird's nest stadium in Beijing. The athletes love it and this is one of the reasons why the facility is booked with events on the regular track circuit, as well as the Canadian Track & Field Championships for the next two years.

The city went overboard on the track, but was rather parsimonious on the stands. In the long run this might have been a mistake. It makes any retrofit to a football stadium more expensive. In the end, as I have said, it might be almost as economical to build fresh in a new location with more flexibility for stadium design and for parking.

Of course, this would put Moncton back at square one just like Halifax. Nobody would suggest building a football specific stadium without a firm commitment for a franchise.....

Does anyone know for sure that the Moncton Stadium is capable of being expanded with upper decks? The proposed 14k stadium in Halifax was not capable of being expanded with upper decks.
If the stadium in Moncton can be expanded, then maybe the track should be removed and re-installed elsewhere. As was stated by another poster, "How many track and field events need a 10k stadium?". This would allow for the playing field to be lowered, allowing space to install premium quality seats at a comparably cheap price. The NFL's Raiders did this back in the '90's with L.A.'s Memorial Coliseum. It should increase capacity by 3000 to 4000 seats. It would also improve sightlines. People don't particularly notice now because the stadium is small, but the track really pushes the seats back. It is something that would become more of an issue should the stadium ever be expanded with upper decks.
If the stadium in Moncton cannot be expanded with upper decks, then a new stadium would obviously have to be built. What about the idea of building a new stadium along the highway in one of the small towns situated between New Brunswick's three main cities? The land would undoubtedly be cheap, and it could set up a situation where there would be 400k+ population within an hours drive. A small town would give the team an underdog appeal, and would dispel any notion that the team belongs to any one city more than another.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

Does anyone know for sure that the Moncton Stadium is capable of being expanded with upper decks? The proposed 14k stadium in Halifax was not capable of being expanded with upper decks.
If the stadium in Moncton can be expanded, then maybe the track should be removed and re-installed elsewhere. As would stated by another poster, "How many track and field events need a 10k stadium?". This would allow for the playing field to be lowered, allowing space to install premium quality seats at a comparably cheap price. The NFL's Raiders did this back in the '90's with L.A.'s Memorial Coliseum. It should increase capacity by 3000 to 4000 seats. It would also improve sightlines.

Good example of thinking outside the box!

The concept of lowering the field and installing new premium seating around the playing surface has been raised before, but I think you are the first one to suggest relocating the Mondo track surface rather than actually just sacrificing it. That would make the whole project a lot more palatable since it would be a shame to just get rid of this valuable resource for the local track & field community.

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

If the stadium in Moncton cannot be expanded with upper decks, then a new stadium would obviously have to be built. What about the idea of building a new stadium along the highway in one of the small towns situated between New Brunswick's three main cities? The land would undoubtedly be cheap, and it could set up a situation where there would be 400k+ population within an hours drive. A small town would give the team an underdog appeal, and would dispel any notion that the team belongs to any one city more than another.

This is a novel thought as well. The concept of building a regional airport in Sussex NB (equidistant between Moncton, Fredericton and Saint John) has been floated on numerous occasions in the Atlantic forums, but this would be inordinately expensive and would entail closing all three existing airports with all the associated economic dislocation that would produce. Building a fresh new regional football stadium in Sussex however has more merit in that it would be new construction and would not really affect any existing facilities in the three cities. It would also equally draw on a regional population of about 400,000 people. The concept would be similar to Gillette Stadium in Foxborough MA, which is pretty equidistant from Boston and Providence. It would make the team "New Brunswick's team", and not just Moncton's team. The team would be given a provincial name, something like the "New Brunswick Lumberjacks". I like the possibility of creating region wide buy-in. Personally, it would only be a 45 minute drive for me to Sussex. That's not a tremendous hardship once every two weeks. I rather like the idea!

[c-way-dude]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It would make the team "New Brunswick's team", and not just Moncton's team. The team would be given a provincial name, something like the "New Brunswick Lumberjacks". I like the possibility of creating region wide buy-in. Personally, it would only be a 45 minute drive for me to Sussex. That's not a tremendous hardship once every two weeks. I rather like the idea!

I think that a Moncton-based team would take the New Brunswick or Atlantic (heaven forbid) name anyway. The basis of Moncton's argument for a franchise has always been that it is the "Hub City", meaning that it would depend on support from other communities. It would only make sense for that to be recognized in the team's name.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by c-way-dude

I think that a Moncton-based team would take the New Brunswick or Atlantic (heaven forbid) name anyway. The basis of Moncton's argument for a franchise has always been that it is the "Hub City", meaning that it would depend on support from other communities. It would only make sense for that to be recognized in the team's name.

Yes, I agree. The only way a Moncton based team would survive is if were branded and marketed as a Maritime team. I think Halifax is somewhat less wedded to the idea of a team being a team for the Maritimes or Atlantic Canada.