Confederation Line West LRT Extension (Stage 2) [Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[Buggys]

Thanks roger1818 & PHrenetic.

Dammit, why can't these people just be happy that they're so close to an LRT station as -- something thatany others covet.

Last time I emailed one of the contacts about the length of the station platforms (many months ago now), they they gave me a reasonable explanation, so perhaps they would provide you an answer also. Unfortunately, I can no longer find what the propoaed length was at the time, or that email.

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day...

yep...that was the main driving force - behind the scenes.
Up front, the stated objections are too much non-revenue track (1.2 km) from Baseline/Algonquin to the site (nevermind the future revenue service to Barrhaven (too far in the future?) - the now productive statement for the Moodie station and the LMSF at Moodie west), and the expenses of the maintenance on that rail and the necessary bridges/trenches (Baseline / Algonquin (trench) to Woodroffe / CN (underpass - for the future soutward rail) with Woodroffe overpass beside CN rail to access the LMSF) (which they could not make up their minds on for Tallwood - variously either an elevated station or trenched station) and the high water table in the area of the line from Baseline / Algonquin to the CN / Woodroffe underpass depression leading to higher construction and maintenance costs in the trenched sections.
<snort> IE - massive spin control to back out of what seemed a reasonable site candidate.

On the latest release - only just working my way through it - but I am still massively bothered by the detail of 90 meter platforms (ok), with protection for 100. !! only 100 !! where did protection for 120 vanish to ? The current 90 leaves the 2 train consists (96 meters) hanging their noses out 3 meters either end. OK, we can deal with that - the doors are in from the noses. BUT - add in the 11 meter expansion unit in each train for planned future capacity, and you get 118 meter consists. 100 is TOO SHORT ! WTF ?!
This is WORRYING me. They keep repeating it, now in three iterations of the stage 2 expansion plans.

[Buggys]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

http://www.ottawasun.com/2017/09/01/...theres-no-room

Thanks for sharing kevinbottawa! At an open house a few years ago, I thought the map had a park & ride @ the next station west of Bayshore. This change is disappointing.

[lrt's friend]

Only Ottawa builds LRT well out into the suburbs with zero park n ride lots.

[White Pine]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Only Ottawa builds LRT well out into the suburbs with zero park n ride lots.

And proceeds to move it away from anyone within walking distance.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Only Ottawa builds LRT well out into the suburbs with zero park n ride lots.

Huh? Blair (Telesat), Jeanne d’Arc, Place D'Orleans, Trim, Baseline, Greenboro and Leitrim all have Park and Ride lots. Maybe part of the push to Kanata is to connect to the Eagleson, Terry Fox and CTC Park and Rides.

[Buggys]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Huh? Blair (Telesat), Jeanne d’Arc, Place D'Orleans, Trim, Baseline, Greenboro and Leitrim all have Park and Ride lots. Maybe part of the push to Kanata is to connect to the Eagleson, Terry Fox and CTC Park and Rides.

According to the Transportation Master Plan, the Baseline park & ride is supposed to be removed, probably when stage 2 is built.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Buggys

According to the Transportation Master Plan, the Baseline park & ride is supposed to be removed, probably when stage 2 is built.

What makes you think it would happen after Stage 2? The only thing I can see in the TMP is the 2031 Network Concept and the Ultimate Network maps don't show a Park and Ride at Baseline; however, 2031 Affordable Network map (which is closest to Stage 2) does. The biggest differences (with respect to Baseline) between the affordable and concept maps are grade separation of the remander of the south western Transitway and completion of the Baseline BRT line. I don't think the latter will have any affect on the P&R and I highly doubt if the former will happen (they will likely go directly to exending the LRT instead).
You
When the LRT is extended south to Fallowfield, the demand for a baseline P&R will be reduced but not eliminated, so I think they will keep it regardless of what the TMP says (they are already deviating from it, so it isn't written in stone).

[Buggys]

Because at the open house, I was reasoning to keep it, and Vivi Chi or someone else from the City was reasoning to remove it when Baseline Station becomes an LRT station. I said park & rides are just as useful in the West end as the East end. They said park & rides aren't needed within the greenbelt, because (if I recall correctly) people don't need to drive to the station within the greenbelt because the public transit network is so good within the greenbelt, and they don't want people driving from outside the greenbelt through the greenbelt to get to a park & ride. ...I think that's a load of crap, because people within the greenbelt use park & rides for many reasons, and urban park & rides in other cities are well used. ...They reluctantly only planned for 1 park & ride in the West end on the planned LRT portion -- at the stop just West of Bayshore. Now they're trying to scrap that one too :-(.

[Buggys]

I hope you're right that their P&R position is shifting towards having them. In the meantime, my feeling is that we have to fight to have them.

[rakerman]

Moodie LRT Station Connectivity Workshop

"Feedback can be submitted via comment sheet in person or by email to Stage2@ottawa.ca by September 4, 2017"

http://www.stage2lrt.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/S2_Moodie-LRT-Connectivity-Workshop-Presentation_Final_ENG.pdf (PDF)

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Buggys

Because at the open house, I was reasoning to keep it, and Vivi Chi or someone else from the City was reasoning to remove it when Baseline Station becomes an LRT station. I said park & rides are just as useful in the West end as the East end. They said park & rides aren't needed within the greenbelt, because (if I recall correctly) people don't need to drive to the station within the greenbelt because the public transit network is so good within the greenbelt, and they don't want people driving from outside the greenbelt through the greenbelt to get to a park & ride. ...I think that's a load of crap, because people within the greenbelt use park & rides for many reasons, and urban park & rides in other cities are well used. ...They reluctantly only planned for 1 park & ride in the West end on the planned LRT portion -- at the stop just West of Bayshore. Now they're trying to scrap that one too :-(.

Park&Rides in urban areas on prime TOD land? Fine. As long as you are ready to pay to store your car on it. Let's say $3 per hour?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Buggys

Because at the open house, I was reasoning to keep it, and Vivi Chi or someone else from the City was reasoning to remove it when Baseline Station becomes an LRT station. I said park & rides are just as useful in the West end as the East end. They said park & rides aren't needed within the greenbelt, because (if I recall correctly) people don't need to drive to the station within the greenbelt because the public transit network is so good within the greenbelt, and they don't want people driving from outside the greenbelt through the greenbelt to get to a park & ride.

They certainly have a point that they don't want to encourage people to drive across the greenbelt. Having said that, I don't think the Baseline P&R does that for a couple reasons:

1. Woodroffe is quite slow and buses have priority, so it is just as fast if not faster to take the bus from Fallowfield (especially eventually when the LRT is eventually exteded to Barrhaven).
2. The Fallowfield P&R is free, but the Baseline one costs money on weekday mornings.

As for their argument of transit being "so good" inside the Greenbelt, that is certainly debatable, especially in Nepean and outside of peak periods.

people within the greenbelt use park & rides for many reasons,

Agreed. I am curious if they have done a study of where people who use the Baseline P&R are commuting from.

and urban park & rides in other cities are well used

Hard to compare to other cities and most don't have an urban Greenbelt like we do (Toronto's Greenbelt is much further from the core).

They reluctantly only planned for 1 park & ride in the West end on the planned LRT portion -- at the stop just West of Bayshore. Now they're trying to scrap that one too :-(.

Having a P&R at Moodie is a bad idea IMHO for the following reasons:

1. The Queensway is very fast and having a Park & Ride there would encourage people to drive through the Greenbelt.
2. It will become less useful once the LRT is extended to Kanata (though admittedly it would still be useful for those in Bells Corners)

Originally Posted by Buggys

I hope you're right that their P&R position is shifting towards having them. In the meantime, my feeling is that we have to fight to have them.

Planers can plan all they want. It is the politicians who have the final say.

[PHrenetic]

Good Day....

The Baseline/Algonquin/ConstellationDr.(CityOfOttawa) parking lots are (or are to be) designated TOD areas, as per several of the plans of the area, and in the 2031 Concept and Ultimate Plans (a close look and careful read reveal building outlines overlaid on the parking lots), which is both reasonable and proper. I have to think that City is planning on holding onto the parking lots on the west side of the station (100 Constellation et al) just long enough (2023 LRT station) to be able to sell it off to developers for megabucks more than it would have brought before now. Parking will then be a gone-by-the-board minimalist sell-off to claim a green cachet, and collect megafees for what remains. But then I'm paranoid.

EnJoy!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Park&Rides in urban areas on prime TOD land? Fine. As long as you are ready to pay to store your car on it. Let's say $3 per hour?

I agree that they should charge for using the Park and Ride lots inside the Greenbelt, but that rate is a bit excessive (it is more expensive than some of the City's downtown lots). Currently the Baseline P&R charges $25 a month to park before 11 am weekdays and a Gold Permit costs $57 a month (neither includes the bus pass, which is required). Maybe they could have a Presto machine at the entrance which requires you to either have a pass or buy a ticket after 11 am and on weekends and holidays. The permit could also be included on your Presto card.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

On the latest release - only just working my way through it - but I am still massively bothered by the detail of 90 meter platforms (ok), with protection for 100. !! only 100 !! where did protection for 120 vanish to ? The current 90 leaves the 2 train consists (96 meters) hanging their noses out 3 meters either end. OK, we can deal with that - the doors are in from the noses. BUT - add in the 11 meter expansion unit in each train for planned future capacity, and you get 118 meter consists. 100 is TOO SHORT ! WTF ?!
This is WORRYING me. They keep repeating it, now in three iterations of the stage 2 expansion plans.

That is certainly a puzzle. According to the video from Alstom for Ottawa below, the initial trains will each be 48m long (the 0:29 mark), so when doubled, they will be 96m long. That is 6m longer than the platforms, but I am guesstimating that they have about 6m to spare at each end, so it won't be a problem.

When expanded, the trains will each be 59m long (the 0:32 mark), so when doubled, they will be 118m long. Since the 90 m platforms are too short, I would guess 120m platforms are likely longer than necessary, but 100m platforms are definitely too short (110m would probably be good enough).

I don't really get this change as it isn't as if they are planning on building the platforms to this length now, so protecting them to a shorter length won't save much if anything.

• Video Link

Interesting tidbits:

• Middle section length: 11m
• Cab section length: 13m
• Initial capacity of a single trainset: 300 people
• Extended capacity of a single trainset: 370 people
• Middle section capacity: 70 people
• Cab section capacity: 80 people

[PHrenetic]

Good Day...

yeah, I always had a bit of a problem with their passenger numbers....
The lengths I had developed were:
Nose - 2 meters, hard attached to
Passenger unit - 11 meters (two door pairs) (70 pax)
Power unit short - 4 meters (no doors) (we did not get this unit)
Power unit long - 11 meters (one door pair) (90 pax (?!? that much diff for pax in the space recovered from the no-door?))
IE - pax accommodation are always overstated, but that's my opinion.
and yep, the first door pair looks to be about 6 meters in from the tip of the nose.
Which gives a calc of 118 -6 -6 = 106 meter platforms minimum, which 110 could accommodate, but 100 cannot !!
Hence why I first joined this forum - to point this out about the Cleary and Orchard design - which at best in the first iteration reserved variously 100 or 110.
So, as I wondered - WTF ? <sigh>

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Only Ottawa builds LRT well out into the suburbs with zero park n ride lots.

Subsidized with the taxes of urbanites who will have to make do with bus non-rapid transit, mixed with ever-increasing non-transit traffic, on surface streets, for a century to come.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Buggys

According to the Transportation Master Plan, the Baseline park & ride is supposed to be removed, probably when stage 2 is built.

Good. That land is much more useful as almost anything else short of growing corn.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

IE - pax accommodation are always overstated, but that's my opinion.

I suspect the PAX is crush load capacity (like what you see on Canada Day). On a typical day it wouldn't get that full as most people would just wait for the next train.

The capacity is also determined by the size of the average person. On a somewhat related note, I read somewhere that there is talk of decreasing the capacity of lifeboats on cruise ships as the size of the average person today is larger than it was when the standard was created.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Good. That land is much more useful as almost anything else short of growing corn.

Why not grow corn there? Suburbanites could then buy freshly picked corn at the LRT station on their way home from work.

Reminds me of the IGA in Montreal that was told to have a green roof, so they planted vegetables and sell the produce in-store. They even have beehives and sell the honey. Can't get any fresher and transportation costs are nil.


Montreal IGA Says It's 1st Supermarket In Canada To Sell Produce Grown On Roof