Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

FTR, neither did I, in spite of being the person with the first post in it.


You guys are neighbors. Same as Northern New Englanders who are fine people too, and our friends; but that doesn’t mean we want to be annexed by the USA.

As a Quebec political scientist once said (I think it may have been Stéphane Dion's late father): we like you, but we don't want to be you.

And note that we're still here, and voted to stay once in 1980 and (more or less) in 1995.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

It's the whole site these days.

Not really. Look at all the other topics that were posted on yesterday.

You're just touchy because there are certain topics that make you (and others) uncomfortable, and you'd rather not have them discussed at all.

[Jimmy Nimby]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not really. Look at all the other topics that were posted on yesterday.

You're just touchy because there are certain topics that make you (and others) uncomfortable, and you'd rather not have them discussed at all.

Or maybe it’s just weird talking obsessively about topics like Quebec and language on a website called “Skyscrapers.com”?

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Nimby

Or maybe it’s just weird talking obsessively about topics like Quebec and language on a website called “Skyscrapers.com”?

I think this is one of those places on the internet that has lured a unique group of people to discuss the topic of Canada. It is not really its original intent, but allowed to exist. I don't think (to my knowledge, anyway) there's anything else like it on the internet.

Quebec is still in Canada and its unique status lends itself to discussion. I appreciate insights into somewhere that's part of my country but I'm somewhat opaque on.

I suppose one could petition the mods to wipe all non-skyscraper threads. It might be an uphill battle for a poster who has a post count in the single digits. Kind of like whining to revamp the menu to the long-time proprietor of a community restaurant on one's first visit.

[DirectionNorth]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Nimby

Or maybe it’s just weird talking obsessively about topics like Quebec and language on a website called “Skyscrapers.com”?

There are threads about skyscrapers. If you don't like the topic, just shut up, because other people disagree (and really, why do you need an account just to complain about this?)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Nimby

Or maybe it’s just weird talking obsessively about topics like Quebec and language on a website called “Skyscrapers.com”?

Nice try, but this forum has active threads on speech and accents, murders, natural landscapes, CFL, NHL, soccer, basketball, churches, tourism, etc.

[Jimmy Nimby]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Nice try, but this forum has active threads on speech and accents, murders, natural landscapes, CFL, NHL, soccer, basketball, churches, tourism, etc.

And yet the site is still called skyscrapers.com.

Can you explain why the topics and discussions on all the other regional sections generally stick to the topics inferred by the website name?

What’s weirder is the amount banning and post deleting that happens here for being “off topic”

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I suppose.

Maybe not you, but I've never understood why bilingual labelling was viewed by so many ROCers as this huge concession to Quebec and francophones.

I mean, we're here on the land mass and we're a decent-sized market. Even if Quebec had been independent since 1995, 1980 or even before that there'd probably be some type of fairly extensive trade agreement and many, many products sold in Canada would still have English-French bilingual labelling.

We're not part of the same country as Mexico and tons of products already have Spanish on them as well today. (And the US has even more Spanish on labels and such and they're not part of Mexico either and Spanish isn't even an official language.)

When I hear people say this stuff it's as if they've never travelled abroad in their entire lives.

"Let Quebec separate - then we won't have any more of that damned French on our bloody cereal boxes!"

I think not. Not unless you want 25% of the workers at Kellogg's in Toronto to lose their jobs.

Muliti-lingual or bilingual labels don't bother me, never have. You were just talking as if there is no protection of the French language whatsoever and I picked out an easy one that every one of us sees every day.

In browsing a few pages of this thread I'm a little taken aback by the impression that people from Quebec (not all, I'm sure, but a majority? I don't know) seem to think you're still at war with the English, and have to fight vigorously to keep them from taking your language and culture from you. Meanwhile, most people in the rest of Canada (IMHO) think of Quebec as just another province where most people speak French.

I don't know... it just feels a little weird to be continually reading that 'us vs them' attitude that seems to indicate that there is still some kind of debt that has to be paid for something that another country did 200+ years ago during periods of war that resulted in the developing of Canada. Most of the rest of us seem to feel that this is ancient history and it's time to move on - the war is over, we now have a great and strong country that goes further than most in recognizing and being respectful of the various cultures, the two most prominent of which are Indigenous and French (which includes the Quebecois with all the accents). And yet you are still talking about separation as if it's a cycle that should come up every decade or so until the argument is compelling enough to go through with it.

Just like when Albertans were talking about separation over oil revenues, this pisses me off. I'm a Canadian, always have been, and I love Canada. I love the diverse cultures and geographical features that each part of the country offers. I love the country as a whole and enjoy meeting people from each part of it and learning about how they live their lives. And yet, one of the provinces doesn't really think of itself as a province and would be more than happy to break up the country if it were feasible to do so.

It's a good discussion and I'm learning quite a bit, but I have to say that I'm losing some of the positive feelings I had for the people of Quebec. Anytime I've visited the province I really enjoyed the place and the people, but now am coming to realize that as soon as English comes out of my mouth I'm probably secretly being despised, but they need my tourist money so they'll pretend to be friendly.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I think this is one of those places on the internet that has lured a unique group of people to discuss the topic of Canada. It is not really its original intent, but allowed to exist. I don't think (to my knowledge, anyway) there's anything else like it on the internet.

Quebec is still in Canada and its unique status lends itself to discussion. I appreciate insights into somewhere that's part of my country but I'm somewhat opaque on.

The main reason I'm on this forum is to sharpen my talking points around cultural and current affairs issues which I then use in real conversations with my actual friends. For every post I've made, I've quietly taken 2 or 3 profound arguments from thoughtful posters, not commented on it, but then used them in conversations over drinks. The other lure is urban development which is one of my interests, but not one I can engage with with too many other people, nor one that demands a full time forum for me to post on. Basically, come for the trains and buildings, but stay for the political and cultural commentary.

If we focused exclusively on skyscrapers, I wouldn't be here.

For example, I lurk on urbantoronto, because I'm personally and financially invested in the Toronto area's urban developments, and want to see what's happening, but I don't really feel the need to talk about specific projects. I have nothing to contribute. I don't have insider knowledge about developments, nor are my comments on architecture or the urban realm going to amount to much in the real world.

Even though I think we talk an awful lot about Quebec and its position in Confederation on here, I have learned a great deal about this topic on this forum.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Even though I think we talk an awful lot about Quebec and its position in Confederation on here, I have learned a great deal about this topic on this forum.

This thread exists because every other thread on the Canada subforum eventually ends up becoming about Quebec through one way or another. It had to be created to cobble together every other thread that's driven off-topic.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It's a good discussion and I'm learning quite a bit, but I have to say that I'm losing some of the positive feelings I had for the people of Quebec. Anytime I've visited the province I really enjoyed the place and the people, but now am coming to realize that as soon as English comes out of my mouth I'm probably secretly being despised, but they need my tourist money so they'll pretend to be friendly.

It's the internet, so YMMV.

Also, the discussion is dominated by a handful of people. How reflective they are of a society of millions of people? Again, YMMV.

I largely get the impression the Quebec does not particularly care about the rest of Canada. They might be somewhat annoyed if you're particularly rude about demanding to be served in English, but are generally reasonably tolerant if you make some attempt to try to work on their terms. It also depends on the place. Montreal versus Saguenay? Different places, different takes.

People crow here about how diverse their city/province is. Well this literally is diversity, for better or worse. I do suspect some just want 'diversity' in the superficial sense and not the deeper (and probably more conflicted) one.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This thread exists because every other thread on the Canada subforum eventually ends up becoming about Quebec through one way or another. It had to be created to cobble together every other thread that's driven off-topic.

Ignoring a thread on here is the easiest thing in the world to do. There are several threads on here that I've never posted in, let alone even read.

And of course I don't parachute into them to complain that other people are discussing a topic that I have no interest in.

So obviously the issue isn't that this topic hijacks the forum, but rather that some would rather it not be discussed at all.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So obviously the issue isn't that this topic hijacks the forum, but rather that some would rather it not be discussed at all.

Mm, not really. I don't really see a need for the Federal Politics thread to be overtaken with three pages on what Quebec was doing in 1750, and I don't see a need for something like the Statistics Canada thread to divert to whether or not a Minister of Finance in Saskatchewan thinks in both official languages every day. All of that can be thrown in this thread and if people care to enter then that's up to them. Not everything has to be about Quebec, or Francophones, or the French language at. all. times.

If someone had a hidden agenda to have this topic scrubbed from the forum then this thread probably wouldn't exist, no?

I only bring this up because you're overwhelmingly the most active user in threads that verge off-topic and you've recently said that you don't care that threads are driven off-topic, which is pretty much discussion forum 101 for people who actually want to use this forum for its intended purpose, especially on a platform like this that hasn't physically been updated since like 2003.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I think this is one of those places on the internet that has lured a unique group of people to discuss the topic of Canada. It is not really its original intent, but allowed to exist. I don't think (to my knowledge, anyway) there's anything else like it on the internet.
.

Correct. During election periods in particular, this place may have the best discussions anywhere.

And I know Lio45 once said the same thing.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by thewave46

People crow here about how diverse their city/province is. Well this literally is diversity, for better or worse. I do suspect some just want 'diversity' in the superficial sense and not the deeper (and probably more conflicted) one.

In my experience, many of the people who post on forums like this treat diversity (specifically ethnic diversity) as an amenity rather than a lived experience. For some, the fact that their city is 10% Chinese, for example, is only significant in that it allows them access to more/better/more "authentic" Chinese food than a city that's only 2% Chinese. That a community in a diverse place and the individuals within it have practices, beliefs, values, experiences, challenges and needs separate from (and occasionally clashing with) those of others is ignored, and voices from those communities rarely heard.

Within the context of this thread, I wouldn't find it at all surprising that the same person who complains about the attention Francophone/Quebec issues get here elsewhere brags that their city is x% Francophone and therefore better/more diverse/more interesting (or, God forbid, more "European") than a city with a smaller Francophone population.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Mm, not really. I don't really see a need for the Federal Politics thread to be overtaken with three pages on what Quebec was doing in 1750, and I don't see a need for something like the Statistics Canada thread to divert to whether or not a Minister of Finance in Saskatchewan thinks in both official languages every day. All of that can be thrown in this thread and if people care to enter then that's up to them. Not everything has to be about Quebec, or Francophones, or the French language at. all. times.

If someone had a hidden agenda to have this topic scrubbed from the forum then this thread probably wouldn't exist, no?

I only bring this up because you're overwhelmingly the most active user in threads that verge off-topic and you've recently said that you don't care that threads are driven off-topic, which is pretty much discussion forum 101 for people who actually want to use this forum for its intended purpose, especially on a platform like this that hasn't physically been updated since like 2003.

Oh I am not complaining about the fact that these OT drifts lead to certain discussions being moved by mods.

I can definitely understand that, in spite of my comments about not really caring if it's done or not.

What I am talking about is people complaining that threads like this one actually exist at all.

And that their only participation in the forum virtually amounts to coming in here and bitching about what others want to talk about.

So... mm... yes really.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What I am talking about is people complaining that threads like this one actually exist at all.

And that their only participation in the forum virtually amounts to coming in here and bitching about what others want to talk about.

Like you, perhaps they can't just sit around and watch BS slide.

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Within the context of this thread, I wouldn't find it at all surprising that the same person who complains about the attention Francophone/Quebec issues get here elsewhere brags that their city is x% Francophone and therefore better/more diverse/more interesting (or, God forbid, more "European")

On this note, has anyone else seen Montreal's latest tourism marketing?


https://strategyonline.ca/2021/10/07...uropean-roots/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

People crow here about how diverse their city/province is. Well this literally is diversity, for better or worse. I do suspect some just want 'diversity' in the superficial sense and not the deeper (and probably more conflicted) one.

This is a very good point.

Even if its population is largely European-descended and western in culture, Quebec is still our best example of in-your-face deep diversity that's like a foreign object smack dab more or less in the middle of Canada, covering a huge territory, with obviously a different language but also to some degree different laws, cultural cues, a different balance between collective vs. individual rights, a different historical narrative and outlook, etc.

It's the ultimate test for a country that always likes to claim that "diversity is our strength" but so far I'd say it's only getting a middling grade on this one.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Muliti-lingual or bilingual labels don't bother me, never have. You were just talking as if there is no protection of the French language whatsoever and I picked out an easy one that every one of us sees every day.
.

Many (but not all) national consumer products had bilingual labelling long before federal regulations required it in the late 1960s.

Kellogg's had bilingual cereal boxes in the early 1900s.

I just don't see how what were logical business decisions based on demographic and financial considerations, later enshrined by laws, are somehow a shining example of magnanimity or generosity. (And yes I wouldn't expect someone fair-minded like you to be bothered by them.)

What exactly does it cost or take away from Anglo-Canadians that labels are bilingual?

If I were going to point to something that actually is more generous and comes at some cost, it would be bilingualism in the federal public service.

Again, I don't think think that this is an advantage that status quo Canada has over a hypothetical independent Quebec (where 100% of services would be available in French and public servants would work in French all day) so maybe not a "buffer" per se, but it's a better example than bilingual labels of Canada making a sincere effort.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Like you, perhaps they can't just sit around and watch BS slide.

]

They're free to do as they please. I don't put people on ignore and certainly don't write to mods asking for someone to be banned.

But one can definitely wonder what tangible contribution certain posters actually bring to the forum...