[Saint John] 91 King Street | ?m | ?s | Site Prep

[bridgeoftea]

The interview with the developer doesn't put him in any light.

I literally don't care how much money you've lost or sunk into this. It's laughable that you have taken all this time to still not finalize the plans when for all that's been shared would be great. No office portion, retail at the bottom.

The city also needs to step up and say, it's been two years, you're done. I don't get how the city doesn't have a shovels in the group within 60 days of taking over the property without taking it back or fining the bastards every single day there isn't work done.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

The interview with the developer doesn't put him in any light.

I literally don't care how much money you've lost or sunk into this. It's laughable that you have taken all this time to still not finalize the plans when for all that's been shared would be great. No office portion, retail at the bottom.

The city also needs to step up and say, it's been two years, you're done. I don't get how the city doesn't have a shovels in the group within 60 days of taking over the property without taking it back or fining the bastards every single day there isn't work done.

Does the city have the power to do that? If so, I agree the city needs to start to apply pressure.

[MonctonRad]

It certainly appears the developer didn't know what he was getting into, and does not have the resources to get it done.

Percy seems like the SJ equivalent of "Valmond" in Moncton, who was the original proponent of the "Harper Building", now the Infinity tower. He purchased this block, initially with the idea of building a large office building for government offices (I don't think he had any firm discussions with either the federal or provincial goverments before doing this), and then planned a large hotel there (Doubletree branded), but, again, insufficiently capitalized. The pandemic then hit and he was forced to sell the property. Valmond had a good reputation as a minor developer in the city, but was way in over his head. Thankfully the new developer seems to know what he's doing.

Maybe it's time for Percy to also walk away, and let a more sophisticated, better connected and better capitalized developer take over as well.........

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

The interview with the developer doesn't put him in any light.

I literally don't care how much money you've lost or sunk into this. It's laughable that you have taken all this time to still not finalize the plans when for all that's been shared would be great. No office portion, retail at the bottom.

The city also needs to step up and say, it's been two years, you're done. I don't get how the city doesn't have a shovels in the group within 60 days of taking over the property without taking it back or fining the bastards every single day there isn't work done.

He didn't buy it from the city (unless I'm misremembering), so that would set a chilling precedent and would be completely illegal. They can't take it- nor should they be able to take it. No law provides for fines sadly. They should sue him for the Charlotte St grant amount and the costs of closing a lane, temp sidewalk construction, etc. Or at least talk tough with the guy. Kid gloves are absurd here.

[JakeNB]

Gosh - the City isn’t even doing any of those things at Fundy Quay - which they DO own. Uptown development is totally stagnant right now and the Mayor is celebrating the museum redevelopment on Douglas Ave. Go figure.

[gtsoc]

Remember when the council was posing for pictures during the demolition - don't see them posing for pictures in front of Percy's Hole now.

https://twitter.com/DavidHickeySJ/st...569993222?s=20

[sailor734]

Article in the TJ this morning with Percy Wilbur dumping much of the blame for 99 King being stalled on the city and specifically the various economic development agencies it's had in recent years. Agencies he says "led him down the garden path" with promises of being an anchor tenant for his planned two floors of office space to be used as an Innovation Centre.....and then abandoning the concept and choosing space in the Brunswick Square tower instead.

[sailor734]

So, we are coming to the end of another year of the eyesore at the head of King. I'm curious as to what the general consensus is about this. Do you think the hole will still be there this time next year?


FWIW I'm thinking there is a very good chance it will.

[JakeNB]

Originally Posted by sailor734

So, we are coming to the end of another year of the eyesore at the head of King. I'm curious as to what the general consensus is about this. Do you think the hole will still be there this time next year?


FWIW I'm thinking there is a very good chance it will.

I would be very surprised if anything happens with the hole in the next five years.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

I would be very surprised if anything happens with the hole in the next five years.

I guess the big question is what does the city have the power to do? (if anything)

I know it is privately owned and the city certainly can't force development or a sale but what about the sidewalks? Can they force remediation/repair and reopening of the public sidewalk?....what about proper solid (and not unsightly) fencing around the edge of the pit on the owner's property and not the city's? That would allow the right turn lane onto King to reopen as well and the removal of the jersey barriers.

Could they force force the owner to shore up the pit walls if the current condition prevents or impinges on the proposed work to Charlotte ?

If the owner is unwilling or unable to do the work could the city do it and place a lien on the property for their costs? (like is done with abandoned buildings)

I get the city doesn't want to be seen as anti development or anti developer but after 3 years enough is enough!

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I guess the big question is what does the city have the power to do? (if anything)

I know it is privately owned and the city certainly can't force development or a sale but what about the sidewalks? Can they force remediation/repair and reopening of the public sidewalk?....what about proper solid (and not unsightly) fencing around the edge of the pit on the owner's property and not the city's? That would allow the right turn lane onto King to reopen as well and the removal of the jersey barriers.

Could they force force the owner to shore up the pit walls if the current condition prevents or impinges on the proposed work to Charlotte ?

If the owner is unwilling or unable to do the work could the city do it and place a lien on the property for their costs? (like is done with abandoned buildings)

I get the city doesn't want to be seen as anti development or anti developer but after 3 years enough is enough!

Leaving the hole as-is is anti-development. It harms the image of the city, which lessens its appeal to developers, and their ability to build. It prevents the reconstruction of Charlotte, sewer separation, and power line burial from King to Princess. It makes driving through the King Square area difficult, which hurts local businesses, annoys residents, and makes public transit operate less efficiently. It would cost like $25,000 max to put a permanent fence around the perimeter. The city should just do it and bill him. I believe that's what they do with boarding up windows and so on at vacant properties.

I'm doing something in January you guys will find funny, regarding the hole. Stay tuned.

[Pugsley]

It would be great if there was a lawyer in town who hated this hole as much as everyone else and was willing to launch a class-action for shits and giggles pro-bono. Bury him in legal paperwork to either get started, sell it, or do something to make it less of an eyesore. Sometimes people need a nudge like that.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

It would be great if there was a lawyer in town who hated this hole as much as everyone else and was willing to launch a class-action for shits and giggles pro-bono. Bury him in legal paperwork to either get started, sell it, or do something to make it less of an eyesore. Sometimes people need a nudge like that.

I'm surprised there wasn't something in the demolition permit that required either construction to start or site remediation. I think a normal demolition permit requires the site to be left filled in and graded (something like the former Baxter's Dairy on Millidge Ave). If the city waived site remediation you would think it would have been contingent on construction.

[JakeNB]

The problem is that Percy paid too much for the property. With demolition costs, he has almost $2million sunk into the project. This makes it uneconomical for him to go forward and also makes it impossible to sell, as no one else would pay that kind of money for the hole. The City should buy him out, then make the property available for. $1 on condition that it be developed within two years.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

The problem is that Percy paid too much for the property. With demolition costs, he has almost $2million sunk into the project. This makes it uneconomical for him to go forward and also makes it impossible to sell, as no one else would pay that kind of money for the hole. The City should buy him out, then make the property available for. $1 on condition that it be developed within two years.

Not that bad of an idea if whatever was built would be of sufficient value to recover the 2M quite quickly in terms of property tax to the city......otherwise it might well set a bad precedent. If one developer gets land bought for him why not others?

OTOH why should Wilber get more for the property than fair market value? I see 81 King assessed at only something like 105K and 91 at 203K. What's the actual market value liable to be? 500K? 1M? That raises another question. Why isn't vacant land assessed at market value? I see vacant land and lots around town that often sell for multiples of assessed value. If vacant land cost more to own more of it might get sold for development.

Speaking of Percy Wilber, it sounds like he still has teething problems with The Wentworth. I was talking with someone over the holidays who lives there. They've had ongoing issues with plumbing leaks in the building (they woke up one night to the sound of running water and every ceiling light fixture had water pouring out of it) and she told me that lately some of the windows are leaking.

[sailor734]

Interesting article on CBC about how Saint John made CNN's "24 places to visit in 2024"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...2024-1.7072987

Unfortunately the photo they chose to use of the mayor had her standing beside Percy's Pit.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

So why can the provincial government force people to sell their houses on Douglas Ave to expand the parking lot for the museum, but the city can’t force Wilbur to sell the pit?

The province could force a sale, but the city can’t? Or can the city if they get a project lined up?

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

So why can the provincial government force people to sell their houses on Douglas Ave to expand the parking lot for the museum, but the city can’t force Wilbur to sell the pit?

The province could force a sale, but the city can’t? Or can the city if they get a project lined up?

They are different levels of government with different legislative powers at their disposal.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

So why can the provincial government force people to sell their houses on Douglas Ave to expand the parking lot for the museum, but the city can’t force Wilbur to sell the pit?

The province could force a sale, but the city can’t? Or can the city if they get a project lined up?

The province has expropriation powers but I believe the city does not. Also, province normally would only expropriate land if it was required for a public project (new school, courthouse, hospital, highway interchange etc etc)

[DyAm00394]

So Councilor Barry Ogden has responded to a comment today on Facebook mentioning the hole at the top of King Street. He said that the project will happen, progress is being made. Source: https://www.facebook.com/barry.ogden...43472918676198