Rail-based Transit Discussion

[someone123]

It is good the Quebec City tramway seems to be proceeding. It will be a bit different from, say, Calgary or Edmonton LRT and is similar to something that could be built in Halifax. It will have both underground and above-ground portions.

The planning phases of this project began around 2010-2020 (with flip-flopping to BRT in 2015) and it isn't expected to be completed until 2029. If you think about this in Halifax terms it means 10 years for planning, funding, and construction. At current growth rates, Halifax would have around 800,000 people by then.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is good the Quebec City tramway seems to be proceeding. It will be a bit different from, say, Calgary or Edmonton LRT and is similar to something that could be built in Halifax. It will have both underground and above-ground portions.

The planning phases of this project began around 2010-2020 (with flip-flopping to BRT in 2015) and it isn't expected to be completed until 2029. If you think about this in Halifax terms it means 10 years for planning, funding, and construction. At current growth rates, Halifax would have around 800,000 people by then.

How is it different?
Edmonton's is partially underground too.

[NorthernGreg]

Is Quebec City footing the entire bill for these trams or are the provincial and federal government kicking in money to help pay for them?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by NorthernGreg

Is Quebec City footing the entire bill for these trams or are the provincial and federal government kicking in money to help pay for them?

Heh.

"The province promised $1.8 billion in financing for the tramway, the federal government promised $1.2 billion, and Quebec City would contribute $300 million" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_City_Tramway

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

Heh.

"The province promised $1.8 billion in financing for the tramway, the federal government promised $1.2 billion, and Quebec City would contribute $300 million" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_City_Tramway

Seems normal. The provincial portion is likely largely federal money too, laundered through the Quebec provincial treasury.

[Jstaleness]

I would love to have something like that in Halifax. The idea of a North South and East West line to hop on/hop off would be great all year, but especially in the winter when walking sucks the most.

[q12]

August 24, 2023

VIA RAIL INVESTS MORE THAN $80M IN ITS HERITAGE STATIONS

Winnipeg, August 24, 2023 – Today, President and Chief Executive Officer, Mario Péloquin, and Chairperson of the Board of Directors, Françoise Bertrand, were at Winnipeg Union Station, one of VIA Rail Canada’s (VIA Rail) Heritage Stations, to announce investments designed to protect these buildings and ensure they reflect today’s standards.

VIA Rail is privileged to own Heritage Stations across its network that have played an integral role in Canada’s rail history. Between 2020 and 2025, VIA Rail will have invested over $80M for the renovation of four of its Heritage stations: Winnipeg Union Station, Vancouver Pacific Station, Halifax Station, and Gare du Palais in Québec City.
“These iconic stations embody the history of railroading, and by extension the creation of Canada, which we have a responsibility to protect,” said Mario Péloquin, President and Chief Executive Officer. “With this announcement we are ensuring that VIA can continue to maintain these landmark buildings and that we improve the customer experience by making these stations more accessible and sustainable for future generations to enjoy.”

https://media.viarail.ca/en/press-re...itage-stations

[Keith P.]

Well, in truth, unless they have big new plans they have not released yet, they seem to have done most of what they had planned to do:

https://corpo.viarail.ca/en/news/a-r...alifax-station

The Halifax station was always very underwhelming and low-end, which still holds true today. Those wooden benches do not seem to be the height of comfort.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The Halifax station was always very underwhelming and low-end, which still holds true today. Those wooden benches do not seem to be the height of comfort.

It is nice that they are spending some money on upkeep and in practice it's not a very busy station since it's only for the few VIA trains that come through.

On a more abstract level the federal government often brands Halifax stuff as nationally significant but doesn't invest much into it. Pier 21 had a similar feel. They want the checkbox to say that Atlantic Canada is included but they're not going to spend the same kind of money they'd spend in other regions.

I think they sometimes also count broad spending in the same way they count the "pork" going to other regions, and this view is shared publicly. For example the naval base or Irving ships are often presented as largesse. But the federal government is paying for workers and ships, and Canada probably needs some kind of navy (we're not even meeting our NATO commitment). Meanwhile the EV battery factory spending in Ontario is just a handout. Likewise transfers to individuals disproportionately going to areas like Cape Breton or ACOA funding count as funding for NS. Halifax used to be dead last for federal infrastructure investment per capita in the metro areas while Nova Scotia was near the top for per capita spending (with that implicit accounting that $1 handed out in pork is the same as $1 spent on procurement or wages).

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by someone123

It is nice that they are spending some money on upkeep and in practice it's not a very busy station since it's only for the few VIA trains that come through.

It also serves Maritime Bus and its six daily arrivals and departures.

[Empire]

With the West End Mall development on the horizon, now is the time to kick start a commuter rail pilot project. Initially, two main points would be the focus. Mumford terminal and the Halifax Via Train Station. Reinstate the second track between the two stations and employ 2 -4 double decker cars similar to the Montreal AMT train. Cars could make efficient runs on their own dedicated track. Maybe the container transport could run at night. The Mumford bus terminal would be a feeder line for the downtown leg of the commute. More busses could be added to serve Mumford Terminal but that would be their termination point. A maintenance & storage facility could be situated at Fairview Cove. Small feeder runs downtown would serve the Via Station.

Thinking even further outside the box, there could be a small ferry terminal at Pier #24. The train could stop at this location for the west track as there is a tunnel under the tracks leading to Pier #24. Commuters at Mumford would know to take Train 'A' for access to the tunnel and ferry to Dartmouth.

Case 23472 - West End Mall Future Growth Node
https://www.shapeyourcityhalifax.ca/west-end-mall

Pier #24 Source Google Maps
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6352...!1e3?entry=ttu

[Keith P.]

Interesting thought, but I see several issues. Aside from the viability of getting CN to cooperate, running the line from Mumford to the existing VIA station only accomplishes a small part of the journey. Getting to Mumford from the sprawly suburbs of Bedford and Tantallon is one part of the problem. The other, bigger part of the problem is that virtually nobody's destination is near the Via station. You are looking at either another bus route of some sort to get to the core of DT, or a potentially longish walk. This needs more thought given to it.

If CN were to cooperate on this, then perhaps they would be willing to cooperate on allowing use of more existing track out towards the Hammonds Plains Rd intersection with the Bedford Hwy near Sobeys. If you could run it to/from that point it would be more viable and also do away with the highly dubious fast ferry project. The fact that this has never occurred means it is probably unlikely but believe it would be a far better choice than a ferry.

As for getting further into DT, that is a bigger problem. I've got nothing.

[MonctonRad]

In Toronto, Go trains deposit their passengers at Union Station, which is not necessarily convenient for all clients in the downtown area. Connections to the TTC subway however are easily accomplished at Union Station.

In Halifax, I would envisage the same could be accomplished with trolley lines heading down Water Street, or up South Street, converging at the VIA station for onward passengers deposited by the commuter rail service.

The future of Halifax transit has to be multimodality, and must include commuter rail, trolleys, BRT and ferries. The key will be interconnectivity and interoperability. I am convinced this can happen.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Interesting thought, but I see several issues. Aside from the viability of getting CN to cooperate, running the line from Mumford to the existing VIA station only accomplishes a small part of the journey. Getting to Mumford from the sprawly suburbs of Bedford and Tantallon is one part of the problem. The other, bigger part of the problem is that virtually nobody's destination is near the Via station. You are looking at either another bus route of some sort to get to the core of DT, or a potentially longish walk. This needs more thought given to it.

If CN were to cooperate on this, then perhaps they would be willing to cooperate on allowing use of more existing track out towards the Hammonds Plains Rd intersection with the Bedford Hwy near Sobeys. If you could run it to/from that point it would be more viable and also do away with the highly dubious fast ferry project. The fact that this has never occurred means it is probably unlikely but believe it would be a far better choice than a ferry.

As for getting further into DT, that is a bigger problem. I've got nothing.

However, the much-maligned fast ferry from Bedford will actually drop off passengers in the middle of downtown. Just like we would want the CN-rail-based system to do. No tracks or additional bus routes necessary.

I still think that the city needs to think larger and develop a proper LRT system (elevated or buried) to bring people in from central and outer parts of the city. Forget about the CN tracks as it's not happening. Just like taking back some of the important 'rails to trails' routes and using them for commuter rail would be great, but also not happening.

But really, the future is now... they have to get moving on this as our population is growing and it's not going to get any easier to build this as time goes by.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Interesting thought, but I see several issues. Aside from the viability of getting CN to cooperate, running the line from Mumford to the existing VIA station only accomplishes a small part of the journey. Getting to Mumford from the sprawly suburbs of Bedford and Tantallon is one part of the problem. The other, bigger part of the problem is that virtually nobody's destination is near the Via station. You are looking at either another bus route of some sort to get to the core of DT, or a potentially longish walk. This needs more thought given to it.

The fix is to extend the rail line into downtown.

One wrinkle with that was (not sure if rules have changed) that Transport Canada required heavy trains if they were running along mixed freight lines, but did not allow these trains to run in a streetcar-like mode along surface streets. Some North American cities do have systems like this (LA had a train like this downtown). In many other parts of the world, mixing lighter trains with freights is allowed as long as the infrastructure is upgraded to improve safety. Likely a better approach anyway than trying to harden trains to minimize damage when they collide. Another possibility is to build some tunnels and extend the line. I'd guess that for this to be cost effective the tunnels would still need to be for lighter, ideally electric, trains.

I think if Halifax ever gets decent transit it'll probably involve an underground portion, similar to the Quebec tramway project. The road network and hills in the older parts of the urban core are not ideal for high capacity transit. The system would not necessarily need to use the CN line.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by someone123

The fix is to extend the rail line into downtown.

One wrinkle with that was (not sure if rules have changed) that Transport Canada required heavy trains if they were running along mixed freight lines, but did not allow these trains to run in a streetcar-like mode along surface streets. Some North American cities do have systems like this (LA had a train like this downtown). In many other parts of the world, mixing lighter trains with freights is allowed as long as the infrastructure is upgraded to improve safety. Likely a better approach anyway than trying to harden trains to minimize damage when they collide. Another possibility is to build some tunnels and extend the line. I'd guess that for this to be cost effective the tunnels would still need to be for lighter, ideally electric, trains.

I think if Halifax ever gets decent transit it'll probably involve an underground portion, similar to the Quebec tramway project. The road network and hills in the older parts of the urban core are not ideal for high capacity transit. The system would not necessarily need to use the CN line.

Heavier rail is likely cheaper than light rail with it's own new right of way. Routing most of the busses west of the peninsula onto rail say at Bayers and Mumford stops would mean large capacity would be needed anyway. This would save a ton of money operating busses those last 3 miles to downtown. This is what Ottawa has done but with Light Rail (disastrously) A short tunnel or a separate streetcar could make the way all the way to Purdy's Wharf. It would eat a decade of capital expenditures though and totally skipping Dartmouth and East might make it politically DOA.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Interesting thought, but I see several issues. Aside from the viability of getting CN to cooperate, running the line from Mumford to the existing VIA station only accomplishes a small part of the journey. Getting to Mumford from the sprawly suburbs of Bedford and Tantallon is one part of the problem. The other, bigger part of the problem is that virtually nobody's destination is near the Via station. You are looking at either another bus route of some sort to get to the core of DT, or a potentially longish walk. This needs more thought given to it.

If CN were to cooperate on this, then perhaps they would be willing to cooperate on allowing use of more existing track out towards the Hammonds Plains Rd intersection with the Bedford Hwy near Sobeys. If you could run it to/from that point it would be more viable and also do away with the highly dubious fast ferry project. The fact that this has never occurred means it is probably unlikely but believe it would be a far better choice than a ferry.

As for getting further into DT, that is a bigger problem. I've got nothing.

The VIA station would be the terminus unti a proper undergroung section can be constructed 50 years from now. Multiple busses, cabs, rickshaws etc, would be available at the station to transport to the center of downtown. The busses would be half size and make continuous loops so that wait times would be no longer than 5 min. It would be Grand Central and a transit hub. The New Yok Port Authority Bus Station is a hub for busses, trains, subway etc., once there, there are instant transportation options to midtown. More busses would serve Mumford Terminal from Hammonds Plains, Bedford, Spryfield area etc . Most of these busses would not go downtown clogging up the narrow streets made narrower with needed bike lanes. Once the system has proven itself, the line could expand to the airport.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by Empire

The VIA station would be the terminus unti a proper undergroung section can be constructed 50 years from now. Multiple busses, cabs, rickshaws etc, would be available at the station to transport to the center of downtown. The busses would be half size and make continuous loops so that wait times would be no longer than 5 min. It would be Grand Central and a transit hub. The New Yok Port Authority Bus Station is a hub for busses, trains, subway etc., once there, there are instant transportation options to midtown. More busses would serve Mumford Terminal from Hammonds Plains, Bedford, Spryfield area etc . Most of these busses would not go downtown clogging up the narrow streets made narrower with needed bike lanes. Once the system has proven itself, the line could expand to the airport.

Its too bad that that couldn't do a loop around the peninsula with BRT or other trains bringing passengers in from Bedford, tantallon, etc. You wouldn't have many hills to deal with as it would pretty much run along the base of the hill that is the peninsula

[someone123]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Heavier rail is likely cheaper than light rail with it's own new right of way. Routing most of the busses west of the peninsula onto rail say at Bayers and Mumford stops would mean large capacity would be needed anyway. This would save a ton of money operating busses those last 3 miles to downtown. This is what Ottawa has done but with Light Rail (disastrously) A short tunnel or a separate streetcar could make the way all the way to Purdy's Wharf. It would eat a decade of capital expenditures though and totally skipping Dartmouth and East might make it politically DOA.

I don't think it would be politically DOA if it were only planned for part of the city (the most developed, transit-friendly part). Dartmouth has 2 ferries and Bedford might be getting one. In a metro area like Halifax with complex geography, there will have to be different transportation solutions for different parts of the region. It's not a matter of just building a couple lines along some arterials that cut across the metro.

Halifax will probably also transition to a more transfer-based system along the lines of what is proposed by the transport plan. This implies that different modes can and probably should be considered for different areas. One solution would be trams and buses in the urban core and a mix of buses, commuter rail, and ferries for the suburbs. The trams could connect up to the commuter rail at Mumford and that would solve the south end issue. Another factor in the future is that congestion will likely worsen a lot and there will be a lot of infill and added population in areas 1-5 km or so from downtown.

[josh_cat_eyes]

If a LRT/Commuter line was ever implemented along the CNR line that goes to the VIA station downtown, would if ever be feasible to create a branch of that line that went to the airport? I feel like this would even help with limiting traffic downtown from commuters in the suburbs.