Tsawwassen First Nation Updates

[TourOdeon]

Originally Posted by Zassk

city-dweller, I think you need to look at the realities of how malls are distributed around the Lower Mainland. This corner of the region probably has sufficient demand for a large mall easily accessed by car. For the large population that is wedded to their car, many of the existing malls are not as accessible or attractive as they used to be.

Richmond has 1 mall basically. Lansdowne is on a death spiral and is sure to be chopped up for a street grid and redeveloped into high density. The asian malls will never have a mainstream attraction. Richmond Centre is successful but is basically maxed out on its possible growth, and will never be able to match the size of larger malls.

Drivers from North and South Delta, South Surrey, Richmond all can get to Tsawwassen Mills much more easily and quickly than to Metrotown. It is basically a direct and comfortable drive on the weekend for those residents. This will be the largest and most convenient mall for them. None of these residents will ever patronize Metrotown or Lougheed etc. with any regularity. Driving south/west is much easier than driving north/east for them.

Even from Vancouver's West Side, for those who wish to drive to a mall, this may be more attractive than Oakridge or Richmond Centre, and certainly more accessible than driving to downtown or Metrotown.

A percentage of people from this side of the region may be habitual cross-border shoppers. This new mall is much less hassle to access than crossing the border, and that alone may siphon off some of those shoppers.

The new mall at YVR will be interesting, but I'm guessing it will not have much overlap with Tsawwassen Mills.

I must LOL'ed at this statement, this is simply untrue... One might drive here for the Walmart if they desperately need to grocery shop at Walmart, but very few people from the Westside would ever feel the need to pinch pennies on grocery. Oakridge and Richmond Centre are where these people would be spending their dollars for branded products.

[memememe76]

Drivers from North and South Delta, South Surrey, Richmond all can get to Tsawwassen Mills much more easily and quickly than to Metrotown. It is basically a direct and comfortable drive on the weekend for those residents. This will be the largest and most convenient mall for them. None of these residents will ever patronize Metrotown or Lougheed etc. with any regularity. Driving south/west is much easier than driving north/east for them.

Zassk is spot on - this isn't about attracting people from the North Shore to head out to a mall in Tsawwassen. This is about attracting people from South of Fraser. Even from Surrey Central it's less than a 30 min drive. Throw in the plan to start tolling bridges and I can see a lot more SoF people heading here rather than to Oakridge, Metrotown or Coquitlam Centre. Anything beyond that would only be if they were already in the area for non-shopping reasons.

Is this mall really going to be all that different than the ones in Queensborough and Morgan Crossing? Why would someone from South Surrey go all the Tsawwassen to do some outlet shopping? Besides Morgan Crossing, it's easier just to go to Seattle Premium Outlets.

If there's one part of the Lower Mainland that I never visit, it's South Delta and Tsawwassen. It is such a difficult place to travel to. 30 minutes from Surrey Central? Certainly not during the week in the morning. Sure, it may be an easy enough drive on the weekend, but so would the drive to Metrotown.

[cornholio]

I can tell you that living in East Vancouver I dont drive downtown for shopping, or to Oakridge etc. I go to Metrotown, Coquitlam, along Marine Drive, to Richmond etc. I go where it is easily accessible by car. I for one think this mall is very welcome and will absolutely thrive. I think the region is actually under served by large car friendly shopping malls (I dont mean one of big box store or a small shopping plaza, I mean huge malls that have everything all in one convenient package). We have not built any new malls like this in a long long time, and those that were built in previous decades have been swallowed up by the urban core and are no longer as easily accessible by car.

Having said that I agree with Glass City. I think this is going to hurt other retail in Tsawwassen and Ladner. The one and only downside. BUT overall this will be positive for the citizens in Tsawwassen and Lander. This is going to be a fantastic amenity for them, within a 10min drive.

[Tetsuo]

Surrey Central to Splashdown Weekday morning at 11 should only take 25-30 mins down the SFR, and that's going at the stupid speed limit on BC17

[SpongeG]

isn't this one also going to have the bass pro or cabelas? that store is a huge draw and being the only one people will venture out for that alone.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by memememe76

If there's one part of the Lower Mainland that I never visit, it's South Delta and Tsawwassen. It is such a difficult place to travel to. 30 minutes from Surrey Central? Certainly not during the week in the morning. Sure, it may be an easy enough drive on the weekend, but so would the drive to Metrotown.

This is where I think your confusion about this mall comes from. The people who will patronize this mall are not at a "difficult" distance from Tsawwassen.

Travel to SD/Tsawwassen has changed with the SFPR. Crossing 1-2 bridges and taking roads like Marine Way or Kingsway to get to Metrotown is definitely more of a chore than taking a simple direct drive along SFPR to Tsawwassen.

Realistically, Surrey Central is at the outer edge of the region that will patronize this mall. Most patrons will be closer than this. But even then, you overestimate the drive. Google Maps measures the drive from Surrey Central at 25 minutes (same as from Morgan Crossing), but at typical driving speeds it should take 20.

[city-dweller]

My comment "dead on arrival" was a bit dramatic. If there are a few "destination stores" the mall in short-term does have a draw.

The long term trend is worth considering:

When Surrey gets Rapid transit and the accompanying development ensues, will this mall still compete?

If the cost of owning a car go up (over the next 10-20yrs or sooner), will some stores consider relocating?

If the province/translink bring mobility pricing to the region/province will it be competitive?

As for the large-format stores with big footprints, I wasn't aware of any of them struggling to find a location closer to their customers. I don't buy the argument that these stores need a large sprawling suburban mall.

Again, with emphasis, I am not hoping the mall fails. I just see it moving against the North American trend.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Zassk

This is where I think your confusion about this mall comes from. The people who will patronize this mall are not at a "difficult" distance from Tsawwassen.

Travel to SD/Tsawwassen has changed with the SFPR. Crossing 1-2 bridges and taking roads like Marine Way or Kingsway to get to Metrotown is definitely more of a chore than taking a simple direct drive along SFPR to Tsawwassen.

Realistically, Surrey Central is at the outer edge of the region that will patronize this mall. Most patrons will be closer than this. But even then, you overestimate the drive. Google Maps measures the drive from Surrey Central at 25 minutes (same as from Morgan Crossing), but at typical driving speeds it should take 20.

What about the outlet stores at Queensborough? They're pretty much the same distance from, say, the Oak Street Bridge as the Tsawwassen ones, and they don't have the tunnel bottleneck (although traffic on 91A could deter people). I don't know if they really have the "premium" outlet stores, but there are stores like The Gap, Guess, Garage, Jones New York...

[idunno]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Vaughan Mills (GTA) and CrossIron Mills (Calgary) are both extremely popular. Unless Metro Vancouver shopping behaviour is drastically different than the rest of the country, Tsawwassen Mills will show the same success.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

What about the outlet stores at Queensborough? They're pretty much the same distance from, say, the Oak Street Bridge as the Tsawwassen ones, and they don't have the tunnel bottleneck (although traffic on 91A could deter people). I don't know if they really have the "premium" outlet stores, but there are stores like The Gap, Guess, Garage, Jones New York...

Have you been there? That's a tiny mall by comparison, totally outdoor and quite hostile to pedestrians, with a fenced railway crossing through the middle and buildings not even facing each other. It lost its anchor Best Buy, the Rona is deserted and hard to access, and the smaller stores have had a lot of turnover. As far as I can tell, only Walmart is doing well there, while the rest of that mall is a dud.

The Queensborough mall is living on borrowed time because currently there is no Walmart in Richmond or south Van/Bby or South Delta. That will change over the next two years when the Richmond Walmart and Tsawwassen Walmart both open. Long term, the Queensborough mall is a non-factor.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by city-dweller

My comment "dead on arrival" was a bit dramatic. If there are a few "destination stores" the mall in short-term does have a draw.

The long term trend is worth considering:

When Surrey gets Rapid transit and the accompanying development ensues, will this mall still compete?

If the cost of owning a car go up (over the next 10-20yrs or sooner), will some stores consider relocating?

If the province/translink bring mobility pricing to the region/province will it be competitive?

As for the large-format stores with big footprints, I wasn't aware of any of them struggling to find a location closer to their customers. I don't buy the argument that these stores need a large sprawling suburban mall.

Again, with emphasis, I am not hoping the mall fails. I just see it moving against the North American trend.

I agree with you. It's also so far out of the way and away from any other attractions or amenities (aside from the BC Ferries terminal). People may talk about drive times here, but the psychology of distance always plays a factor in peoples desire to travel to a certain point.

Hard to say. I would say this new mall would be a draw for most residents of Surrey before the renovation and expansion of Guildford Mall. Now? I could see it luring residents of South Surrey and Delta, but still...it would be a venue you go to solely shop and watch a movie- which is something you could do in 2 other town centers. Most people (especially youth) nowadays have a much shorter attention span and will not spend hours at a mall.

How can this mall thrive? Perhaps provide amenities that would appeal to residents SoF. For example: indoor and outdoor beach volleyball/badminton courts (similar to 6pack beach)

[officedweller]

May 26th video from Bruce Doucette posted at Ivanhoe Cambridge twitter:

• Video Link


Pic of the food court from the Journal of Commerce:


http://journalofcommerce.com/Project...Mall-1008093W/

[Millennium2002]

The video does not come from Ivanhoe Cambridge btw. You may want to correct the source.

Otherwise, I say it's looking promising so far...

[officedweller]

Thanks - it was linked from Ivanhoe Cambridge's twitter - I've added the author

[East Van]

Shopped at both & couldn't agree more. I'd drive 45-1hr just to get to Vaughan Mills occasionally.

Originally Posted by idunno

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Vaughan Mills (GTA) and CrossIron Mills (Calgary) are both extremely popular. Unless Metro Vancouver shopping behaviour is drastically different than the rest of the country, Tsawwassen Mills will show the same success.

[Klazu]

I drove by on Saturday and that place is huge! There is no phasing and they are building everything at once? When is the expected opening date?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I drove by on Saturday and that place is huge! There is no phasing and they are building everything at once? When is the expected opening date?

Spring 2016 for the mall, Fall 2016 for the power centre just north of it

[Large Cat]

Originally Posted by officedweller

May 26th video from Bruce Doucette posted at Ivanhoe Cambridge twitter:

• Video Link


Pic of the food court from the Journal of Commerce:


http://journalofcommerce.com/Project...Mall-1008093W/

A monstrosity. A stupidity beyond belief.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I agree with you. It's also so far out of the way and away from any other attractions or amenities (aside from the BC Ferries terminal). People may talk about drive times here, but the psychology of distance always plays a factor in peoples desire to travel to a certain point.

Hard to say. I would say this new mall would be a draw for most residents of Surrey before the renovation and expansion of Guildford Mall. Now? I could see it luring residents of South Surrey and Delta, but still...it would be a venue you go to solely shop and watch a movie- which is something you could do in 2 other town centers. Most people (especially youth) nowadays have a much shorter attention span and will not spend hours at a mall.

How can this mall thrive? Perhaps provide amenities that would appeal to residents SoF. For example: indoor and outdoor beach volleyball/badminton courts (similar to 6pack beach)

I don't necessarily buy the too far out of the way that many people are claiming.

I live in Surrey Central and if I jump in my car and head out on the SFPR it takes me 35 minutes from my door to this mall by car.

It also takes me 35 minutes to drive from my door to South Surrey / Morgan Crossing.

Takes 35 minutes to drive to Metrotown from my place.

It also takes me 1.5 hours roughly with Nexus to go from my door to the Seattle Premium Outlets and I make that drive sometimes too.

Metrotown has the advantage of rapid transit but rapid transit is not good for shopping at big-box retail stores. You need to have a car of some sort. Anyone who has done a big grocery shopping at a store than tried to get home on SkyTrain/Bus will know how shit it is. By car it is basically the same distance as all the other large regional malls. Now granted on a regular basis I would be shopping at Surrey Central or Guildford, but from time to time I'll likely frequent this mall rather than the others I mentioned just because it is actually a bit easier to get to. Mostly highway driving which is far less frustrating than city driving and getting stuck in traffic/at red lights even if the time is the same.

Transit only works for "shopping" if you stop and buy a few things or you're a single person that just needs a carton of milk and a big of dinner. So ultimately when I look at "malls" to shop at, I look at how long it takes to drive.

So given the above, for me at least in Surrey Central it isn't any further "out of the way" than Metrotown, Morgan Crossing, heck even Langley which has shops my wife or I frequent. Langley center is about 35 minutes away too.

That means then for pretty much everyone else in Surrey, Delta, and Richmond, the mall isn't actually that far. That's a population base of just over 800,000 people to draw from not to mention the traffic to and from the ferries.

I think they will do fine and if they get a few big-box retailers that aren't anywhere else (like the Bass Pro Shop), they will have a draw that other malls won't.

[officedweller]

I also think that the lease rates at this mall would be substantially less than at Metrotown or other suburban "downtown" malls - so the stores probably won't need as much traffic / sales to survive.

It would be a destination shopping trip for most - akin to a trip to IKEA, Wal-Mart or Seattle Premium Outlet mall.

Some people may drive for an hour to hike at The Chief. Others may drive for an hour to go shopping. To each his/her own...