VIA Rail network developments

[Aylmer]

I've actually heard that they're aiming for 120mph/190kph as the max cruising speed, which probably averages out to about 170kph once you factor in stops and approaches. In that case, 2.5h is enough time to cover 425km, which is almost exactly the length of Toronto-Ottawa via Brockville.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There's an interview with the VIA president in the winter issue of Interchange in which he talks about the plan.

Very interesting article. Well worth a read.

Today, 87 per cent of travel between Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal is by car, six per cent is by plane and five per cent is by train. Desjardins-Siciliano thinks a dedicated passenger-rail track between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal is the only way to increase the rail’s share over the car.

It makes much more sense to win over people traveling by car than those traveling by train. Not only is there the obvious larger market to tap into but the airlines have always cried fowl when VIA has tried to lure away their customers with public money. When competing for motorists, there isn't the same direct competition (though the oil companies would see a slight loss in revenue) so there won't be so much political resistance.

The big thing is finding out why people are driving rather than taking the train. Some of the reasons are:

1. The train schedule doesn't meet their needs,
2. The train takes longer than drive (when you take waiting for the train into account),
3. The train doesn't go where they need to go.
4. They need a car at their destination,
5. It costs too much (often true when traveling in a group).

The plans to increase the speed and frequency will resolve issues 1 and 2.

For 3, improved interconnection with the local transit, especially commuter rail. For example Dorval VIA station is adjacent to the AMT station, but it isn't obvious how to walk between the two. Optimally they would share a station, but even improved signage would help. An agreement that allows you to use your ticket to transfer to the local transit would also help.

One solution to issue 4 would be to arrange a deal with local car sharing programmes.

Group or family fares would be a good solution to issue number 5.

Another quote I found interesting was:

VIA Rail trains are capable of running up to 110 m.p.h.
On average, they run at less than 65 m.p.h.
.
.
.
We asked ourselves what we could build with $3 billion and we came to the conclusion that we could run current technology trains – wood ties, diesel engines and current trains – at their full capacity, 100 mph, between Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal. From the current 2 million passengers we would increase to over 7 million passengers and that would create an opportunity to fund the $3 billion.

He didn't go into details about how they would increase their average speed to 100 mph (160 km/h), but he did say that they would be using dedicated track not shared with the freight railways. Presumably other upgrades would be required to improve some of the track. I certainly hope he can do this.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I've actually heard that they're aiming for 120mph/190kph as the max cruising speed, which probably averages out to about 170kph once you factor in stops and approaches. In that case, 2.5h is enough time to cover 425km, which is almost exactly the length of Toronto-Ottawa via Brockville.

Anything over 110 and a whole bunch of new safety regulations kick in
http://www.apta.com/mc/hsr/previous/...ted-States.pdf

There is a need for upgraded track, upgraded or eliminated crossings, etc.

Seems like a lot of expense for an extra 10mph.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The big thing is finding out why people are driving rather than taking the train. Some of the reasons are:

1. The train schedule doesn't meet their needs,
2. The train takes longer than drive (when you take waiting for the train into account),
3. The train doesn't go where they need to go.
4. They need a car at their destination,
5. It costs too much (often true when traveling in a group).

The plans to increase the speed and frequency will resolve issues 1 and 2.

For 3, improved interconnection with the local transit, especially commuter rail. For example Dorval VIA station is adjacent to the AMT station, but it isn't obvious how to walk between the two. Optimally they would share a station, but even improved signage would help. An agreement that allows you to use your ticket to transfer to the local transit would also help.

Plus all the major improvements in the works for the GO Train lines in Toronto will massively increase the ability for people to access Toronto-Union from local destinations in the GTA.

Originally Posted by roger1818

One solution to issue 4 would be to arrange a deal with local car sharing programmes.

VIA is already doing this between Ottawa and Montreal. All they have to do is build on it.

Group or family fares would be a good solution to issue number 5.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

The VIA presidents presentation had Ottawa->Toronto in 2.5 hours with an average speed of about 150 and a max of 177. To hit that time (or something near it) the route is going to need to be pretty much as the crow flies which would point to the CPR route. They might still need Brookville for "local trains" that would also take care of stuff like Kingston->Ottawa

2.5 hours in probably an exaggeration; the real answer is probably around 3.

The current track is 446km from Union to Tremblay. Achieving an average speed of 150km/h for the entire route (possible with dedicated tracks at current track specifications), yields a travel time of 2 hours and 58 minutes for a nonstop express. Semi-express trips adding stops at Oshawa, Kingston, and Fallowfield could do it in about 3 hours 15 minutes.

As for the Peterborough route, it would probably end up being considerably more expensive than just double tracking the lakeshore route. The corridor is full of twists and curves and it only goes as far as Havelock; the section past it would have to be rebuild entirely from scratch at considerable cost.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

2.5 hours in probably an exaggeration; the real answer is probably around 3.

The current track is 446km from Union to Tremblay. Achieving an average speed of 150km/h for the entire route (possible with dedicated tracks at current track specifications), yields a travel time of 2 hours and 58 minutes for a nonstop express. Semi-express trips adding stops at Oshawa, Kingston, and Fallowfield could do it in about 3 hours 15 minutes.

As for the Peterborough route, it would probably end up being considerably more expensive than just double tracking the lakeshore route. The corridor is full of twists and curves and it only goes as far as Havelock; the section past it would have to be rebuild entirely from scratch at considerable cost.

Isn't the Lakeshore route already double tracked? If we are talking about hourly service on dedicated track, we are moving to quadruple track. And with this being a busy corridor, how many overpasses will need to be expanded or replaced? This is why I think of the Peterborough route where most level crossings have very little traffic (some may be closed or deemed that upgraded signalling will be sufficient), freight traffic is minimal, and hopefully the bulk of the abandoned right of way between Havelock and near Perth is still intact.

But I leave this to the experts.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Anything over 110 and a whole bunch of new safety regulations kick in
http://www.apta.com/mc/hsr/previous/...ted-States.pdf

There is a need for upgraded track, upgraded or eliminated crossings, etc.

Seems like a lot of expense for an extra 10mph.

First of all, those are US regulations, though Canadian regulation may be similar.

Assuming they are the same, the differences are:

• Class 7 track
• Crossings must be equipped with a properly functioning FRA-approved warning/barrier system,
• Presence detection tied to PTC

I am not sure what the technical requirements are for class 7 track, but the other two requirements don't seem that onerous. It is approval for trains above 125 mph that is tough, as it requires grade separation at all crossings.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Isn't the Lakeshore route already double tracked? If we are talking about hourly service on dedicated track, we are moving to quadruple track. And with this being a busy corridor, how many overpasses will need to be expanded or replaced? This is why I think of the Peterborough route where most level crossings have very little traffic (some may be closed or deemed that upgraded signalling will be sufficient), freight traffic is minimal, and hopefully the bulk of the abandoned right of way between Havelock and near Perth is still intact.

But I leave this to the experts.

Lakeshore route is already 2 tracks. 3 in some spots. It needs 3-4 for this to work--2 tracks for VIA, 1 track + frequent sidings for CN.

There's plenty of room in the corridor for 4 tracks. The Peterborough line is only one track, so with either one, we're talking about replacing bridges.

Adding more tracks to the Lakeshore corridor is going to be a lot cheaper than bringing the decrepit Peterborough line up to scratch.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

First of all, those are US regulations, though Canadian regulation may be similar.

Assuming they are the same, the differences are:

• Class 7 track
• Crossings must be equipped with a properly functioning FRA-approved warning/barrier system,
• Presence detection tied to PTC

I am not sure what the technical requirements are for class 7 track, but the other two requirements don't seem that onerous. It is approval for trains above 125 mph that is tough, as it requires grade separation at all crossings.

I don't know what the current track is, but I assume it is not class 7, so a whole lot of track (and maybe ballast and ties as well) would need to be replaced.

Most minor roads on the current track do not have signalized intersections so they would have to be built. I don't know how many there are, but it could be quite expensive.

I don't know what presence detection tied to PTC costs, but again it would have to be installed on hundreds of intersections.

I continue to think these costs are probably not worth the extra 10mph.

[c_speed3108]

They did certainly say part of the plan involved corridors where the track had been removed and would need to be "rehabilitated"

[Aylmer]

Perhaps they're thinking of building the fabled 'Gananoque Cutoff' between Kingston and Smiths Falls by reusing part of the old Canadian Northern Railway alignment; it's now used as part of the Cataraqui trail, but here's what I'm thinking:

- Reactivate a 30km portion from Smiths Falls to about Elgin, Ontario
- Build 30-35 km of new track from Elgin to Kingston, roughly following highway 15

It'd save about 40km on the Ottawa-Kingston portion compared to the longer route via Brockville. That translates to about 15-20 minutes at 150 km/h, which isn't negligible, but which might not be worth the expense either. But hey, it's a theory.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Perhaps they're thinking of building the fabled 'Gananoque Cutoff' between Kingston and Smiths Falls by reusing part of the old Canadian Northern Railway alignment; it's now used as part of the Cataraqui trail, but here's what I'm thinking:

- Reactivate a 30km portion from Smiths Falls to about Elgin, Ontario
- Build 30-35 km of new track from Elgin to Kingston, roughly following highway 15

It'd save about 40km on the Ottawa-Kingston portion compared to the longer route via Brockville. That translates to about 15-20 minutes at 150 km/h, which isn't negligible, but which might not be worth the expense either. But hey, it's a theory.

This means that most of the route will still follow the Lakeshore corridor, which I think will be difficult and expensive to add a dedicated track the entire distance between Kingston and Toronto. It will also leave Brockville and Cornwall orphaned and the track between Smiths Falls and Brockville of almost no value.

To me, you either add dedicated track on the entire existing route between Smiths Falls and Toronto, or you build a new one. With either of those approaches, it is still practical to provide service to all communities on existing VIA routes on the MOT corridor.

[Aylmer]

Though I think that a lot of people expect VIA to maintain a local lakeshore line from Toronto to Montreal via Cornwall no matter the alignment for the HFR line.

Your other comments are quite valid. It'll be interesting to see what VIA comes up with.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

They did certainly say part of the plan involved corridors where the track had been removed and would need to be "rehabilitated"

I don't remember reading that (though I might have missed it). I am curious where was that said.

On pg 13 of the winter issue of Interchange (in the interview with VIA Rail President Yves Desjardins-Siciliano) it says:

Some people think high-speed trains – which move passengers from point A to point B as quickly as possible with no stops in between – are the answer, Desjardins-Siciliano says. But he argues that most of the travellers VIA Rail aims to attract live between the metropolitan areas of Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal, in places like Brockville and Kingston, for example. If VIA Rail can provide better service to these communities, it will also improve service into and out of those major cities.

Since both Brockville and Kingston are specifically mentioned, I suspect that the Brockville subdivision will be used. My guess is 2 1/2 hours was an optimistic estimate and in reality it will be closer to 2 3/4 or even 3 hours.

[acottawa]

There seems to be a lot of contradictory information being put out. On one hand they are predicting dramatic improvements on Toronto-Ottawa times and less dramatic improvements in Toronto-Montreal and Ottawa-Montreal times, which would seem to imply at least some of the decrease in travel time would come from a more direct routing (either the CP line between Smiths Falls and Belleville or a greenfield line between Kingston and Smiths Falls or a routing through Peterborough). On the other hand they're talking about serving the in-between destinations such as Kingston and Brockville, which would limit or preclude a more direct routing and lessen the effect of the investment (each stop causes average speeds to drop).

It is interesting that the via rail website has only links to media articles and videos of speeches, there are no actual documents providing information on the plans.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There seems to be a lot of contradictory information being put out. On one hand they are predicting dramatic improvements on Toronto-Ottawa times and less dramatic improvements in Toronto-Montreal and Ottawa-Montreal times,

Using times quoted in post #3 plus current schedule (using approximate times)

Ottawa-Montreal improves from 1:50 to 1:20 (a 30 min or 27% improvement)
Ottawa-Toronto improves from 3:50 to 2:30 (a 1:20 or 35% improvement)

assuming a 10 min wait in Ottawa, that means Montreal-Toronto remains at 4 hours.

I suspect that since the current fastest trips are express trains, the new estimates are also for express trains to compare apples to apples. Trips that stop along the way will obviously take longer.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Using times quoted in post #3 plus current schedule (using approximate times)

Ottawa-Montreal improves from 1:50 to 1:20 (a 30 min or 27% improvement)
Ottawa-Toronto improves from 3:50 to 2:30 (a 1:20 or 35% improvement)

assuming a 10 min wait in Ottawa, that means Montreal-Toronto remains at 4 hours.

I suspect that since the current fastest trips are express trains, the new estimates are also for express trains to compare apples to apples. Trips that stop along the way will obviously take longer.

The fastest trip time between Toronto and Montreal is 4 hrs 42 minutes 5pm departure. Some are over 5 hours. Trips via Ottawa are at least 1 1/2 hours longer. This makes sense since it is over a one hour drive between Brockville and Ottawa, which is almost due north. A streamlined route via Ottawa is essential to make this work.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The fastest trip time between Toronto and Montreal is 4 hrs 42 minutes 5pm departure. Some are over 5 hours. Trips via Ottawa are at least 1 1/2 hours longer. This makes sense since it is over a one hour drive between Brockville and Ottawa, which is almost due north. A streamlined route via Ottawa is essential to make this work.

Wow! You are right! I was going by memory as VIA always advertised their fastest trip was 3:59 minutes, but that was an express train, and they don't seem to have those anymore.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Wow! You are right! I was going by memory as VIA always advertised their fastest trip was 3:59 minutes, but that was an express train, and they don't seem to have those anymore.

Are you sure that wasn't Ottawa to Toronto? It usually takes an hour longer for trips to Montreal because of the greater distance.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Are you sure that wasn't Ottawa to Toronto? It usually takes an hour longer for trips to Montreal because of the greater distance.

No, it was definitely Toronto-Montreal. It was advertised as Canada's fastest train. Originally it used the Turbo train-set. Later, after VIA retired Turbo, they were able to continue the service using LRCs by not stopping in Guildwood or Kingston. Some googling showed that they stopped it in 2012.