What is it like to come home to Canada?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Glengarry, like most of Eastern Ontario, is very segregated: extremely French Canadian working class towns with many apartment complexes vs Scottish middle class towns with tourists from New York State and New England propping up boutiques etc. I'm assuming this forum member is from a French working class background, which explains his view on foreigners. I certainly found towns in the Eastern Townships as segregated from the new Canada as places like Foam Lake or Watrous SK.

If he's Scottish, well, we have culture we just don't brag about it.

It's not the vehicle you drive nor the cafe you drink your coffee at that defines your culture. Eg: a TH feels very different in Napanee vs the Junction, or Trois-Rivières vs Nanaimo.

Culturally, in Canada I feel most at home on Southern Vancouver Island: WASPY, educated, curious, gardening, neat and tidy yet understated. Culture really is more about what isn't said. In Toronto, Rosedale and the Eastern spine of Yonge to Bayview and Leslieville areas.
In the Eastern USA, I love Vermont, New Hampshire and Connecticut. (I love exploring cemeteries wherever I go, and aside from some old Presbyterian and Anglican cemeteries in Quebec and rural Ontario, I absolutely love the understated tasteful tombstones found in New England vs the blingy crap proliferating across Canada. In fact, if I could describe Canada in one word, I'm going to have to agree with my father: "crummy.")

I'd say "crumby", which changes the meaning a bit.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Unfortunately I think this is where Canada's value proposition is starting to fall apart more recently for younger Canadians and new immigrants: now we get European-level material comforts, without the beautiful European cities, culture, or vacation time.






Well said, and this is also perhaps the thing that I most appreciate about Canada. For as much as we might bemoan our lack of a deep-rooted, shared culture & weighty history, it's really a double-edged sword - and this is the bright side of it.

Canada has been tops or near the top in the OECD for social mobility between classes but as most of us know this is now breaking down.

I'd add though that having a strong interesting national cultural identity doesn't preclude a country from having good social mobility.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I should hope so. It was once the largest city, is the permanent 2nd largest city and Hamilton hasn't officially reached 600k yet

I was being deliberately conservative, and Montreal is assuredly more diverse than Ottawa or Hamilton.

That said, diversity is more of a circumstance, a policy byproduct or a reality as opposed to an objective.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada has been tops or near the top in the OECD for social mobility between classes but as most of us know this is now breaking down.

Still better than most places. And we know where the heart of our problem is. Everything begins and ends with real estate. It's the source of a lot of our wealth disparity.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd add though that having a strong interesting national cultural identity doesn't preclude a country from having good social mobility.

This seems like one of those things that is good in theory. In practice, I find that political parties that are identity based, aren't usually very concerned with social mobility.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada has been tops or near the top in the OECD for social mobility between classes but as most of us know this is now breaking down.

I'd add though that having a strong interesting national cultural identity doesn't preclude a country from having good social mobility.

I'm a testament to Canadian social mobility.

My father worked for CNR, but, didn't keep up with newer pension plans when they were made available. He died when I was 10 years old, and his benefits were paltry. My mother took a job as a seamstress so that we wouldn't end up on the street. We lived in a ramshackle 100 year old duplex in downtown Charlottetown. My origin story is thus quite modest.

I did well at school however, and, picked up a full tuition scholarship at UPEI going into my second year. I saved a lot of money by living at home for undergrad, and picked up an extraordinarily good summer job at the Agricultural Research Station in Charlottetown. By this good fortune, I was able to finance my first 1.5 years at medical school before having to take out a student loan. I finished med school and residency no more than $25,000 in debt. I was very fortunate.

I really don't think I would have had such a positive arc to my life if I was 40 years younger and going through the system now. It seems that the hoops that you have to go through to get a professional education are far more labyrinthine now, and, most graduating medical specialists are starting their career $200-250,000 in debt, even before factoring in all the costs of starting your medical practice.

If I had been born in 1997 rather than 1957, I doubt that I would be where I am right now, and that is a shame. I imagine there are a lot of young Canadians in their 20s now who have been thwarted in their life's ambition.......

There is still more social mobility in Canada than in the US, and this is because our society in less class based, but, our mobility has still worsened in the last half century for economic reasons.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Why are you in this country?

Because I was born here and I haven’t (yet) decamped to greener pastures full-time

Truenorth actually chose to be here rather than somewhere else, which is more than most of us can say. He works for DND and contributes more than 95% of Canadians. Not sure why he can’t criticize…?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Still better than most places. And we know where the heart of our problem is. Everything begins and ends with real estate. It's the source of a lot of our wealth disparity.



This seems like one of those things that is good in theory. In practice, I find that political parties that are identity based, aren't usually very concerned with social mobility.

I think my view might be skewed a bit because I live in Quebec where social mobility has long aligned with identity politics.

It's true that hasn't been the case generally in the anglosphere.

Notably, the right-wing Rassemblement National in France has started bringing these two principles together, though only in the past couple of years. They didn't start out that way.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Our small towns have zero identity. They are all full of pickups, people who drive pickups, and people who hang out with people who drive pickups, in the parking lot of the Tim's. And whenever I spend time in a small town in Canada, it makes me sad. So much potential wasted. These places should be filled with our best food and hospitality. Instead, it's Comfort Inn and Boston Pizza if you're lucky.

Alas, you hit the nail right on the head, concerning 95% of the small towns in Canada. Big pickup trucks, big Double Doubles, but mostly small minds, and little else, besides. There are exceptions but they are really quite rare. Outside of a few places (and there are a few, like Montreal, that cast badly needed shade on the boring Canada stereotype), Canada is probably the most mediocre developed country in the world.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I'm a testament to Canadian social mobility.

My father worked for CNR....

Same here. CNR lifer, but got bounced out of a job (as did everyone else with 35+ years of service) in the early 90s. I recall when they basically shut down Moncton (he would travel there frequently for work in the 70s/80s: it is very possible that my father and yours were acquainted on some level).

One of the benefits we had when he was working at CN was free train travel (well, it evaporated, along with all our health/dental benefits, when we turned majority age).

Paid my own way (years as manager at McShitties) through university.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Same here. CNR lifer, but got bounced out of a job (as did everyone else with 35+ years of service) in the early 90s. I recall when they basically shut down Moncton (he would travel there frequently for work in the 70s/80s: it is very possible that my father and yours were acquainted on some level).

Only one of my two parents graduated from high school, and aside from me and my siblings, my parents themselves would also have been a testament to Canadian social mobility.

I am pretty sure none of my four grandparents graduated from high school, and as far as I know even three of them didn't even finish elementary.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Same here. CNR lifer, but got bounced out of a job (as did everyone else with 35+ years of service) in the early 90s. I recall when they basically shut down Moncton (he would travel there frequently for work in the 70s/80s: it is very possible that my father and yours were acquainted on some level).

One of the benefits we had when he was working at CN was free train travel (well, it evaporated, along with all our health/dental benefits, when we turned majority age).

My father died in 1968. He never worked in Moncton. He spent his entire railway career in PEI (back when PEI had a railway).

I well remember the free railway pass. We made liberal use of it to visit relations in NB and Ontario. This is also how we made it to Expo 67 in Montreal.

My mother had a very inquiring mind and loved to travel. There were always books in the house. She herself left school in grade 10 (later getting her equivalency in her late 50s). She was the reason why between my three siblings and myself, we have a total of seven university degrees. Another testament to social mobility. A poor family that valued education.

This is why I feel fundamentally that education should be considered a pillar of Canadian society just as much as health care. I think it would be ideal if we had free tuition for all. This would do more for Canadian society than any number of patchwork social programs covering other "causes."

Keep it simple. Fund education and health care generously, but be parsimonious with our social spending otherwise.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I don't like banning people and really think we, as a forum, should use that tool very, very, sparingly... but...

You just crossed a huge line.

At the very least, you should be suspended.

I apologise, it was rude and insensitive.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

Because I was born here and I haven’t (yet) decamped to greener pastures full-time

Truenorth actually chose to be here rather than somewhere else, which is more than most of us can say.

Honnêtement, c'était le choix de mes parents. Mais j’ai choisi de m’approprier ce pays.

Originally Posted by lio45

He works for DND and contributes more than 95% of Canadians. Not sure why he can’t criticize…?

Parce que je ne fais pas vraiment partie de la monoculture apparement.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Alas, you hit the nail right on the head, concerning 95% of the small towns in Canada. Big pickup trucks, big Double Doubles, but mostly small minds, and little else, besides. There are exceptions but they are really quite rare. Outside of a few places (and there are a few, like Montreal, that cast badly needed shade on the boring Canada stereotype), Canada is probably the most mediocre developed country in the world.

And this is what made me mad yesterday, you need to live it to know what it is. To look at small towners as rednecks with big pickups who drink timmies as culture is highly insulting.

And on the subject of social mobility, I'm probably the last generation that went from owing nothing to have a good salary with degrees. It was important to my parents to work hard and study hard to get out of poverty.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Alas, you hit the nail right on the head, concerning 95% of the small towns in Canada. Big pickup trucks, big Double Doubles, but mostly small minds, and little else, besides. There are exceptions but they are really quite rare. Outside of a few places (and there are a few, like Montreal, that cast badly needed shade on the boring Canada stereotype), Canada is probably the most mediocre developed country in the world.

What strikes me is usually how generic it all is, and lacking in variation from place. I find less of this in say small towns in New England. Most of small town Canada reminds me more of the American midwest than New England.

And I am definitely not the only person who has noticed this.

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[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Only one of my two parents graduated from high school, and aside from me and my siblings, my parents themselves would also have been a testament to Canadian social mobility.

I am pretty sure none of my four grandparents graduated from high school, and as far as I know even three of them didn't even finish elementary.

My uncles’ generation (Baby Boomers who easily got high-paying construction jobs in the booming Quebec of the 1970s and then had union seniority by the time we were into the less booming 1990s) also did quite well for mobility.

Started with nothing, generally retired with all of the following paid off: main house, cottage, timber land/hunting land, toys (pickups/boats/skidoos-etc.)

Young kids can’t emulate that, even if they’d want to. (As a general rule, every era calls for its own path; can’t hope to repeat an old recipe even if it used to work well. I’m not that old and even what I did is now completely impossible to a 10-years-younger me.)

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What strikes me is usually how generic it all is, and lacking in variation from place. I find less of this in say small towns in New England. Most of small town Canada reminds me more of the American midwest than New England.

And I am definitely not the only person who has noticed this.

It depends where in Canada obviously, Acadia is much closer to New England than what would be the ROC or American midwest.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

And this is what made me mad yesterday, you need to live it to know what it is. To look at small towners as rednecks with big pickups who drink timmies as culture is highly insulting.

And on the subject of social mobility, I'm probably the last generation that went from owing nothing to have a good salary with degrees. It was important to my parents to work hard and study hard to get out of poverty.

The Maritimes is rural enough that there isn't the urban/rural disconnect you might have in southern Ontario. Down here, the nature of the small town governs how bumpkin like it is.

If the town has a university (Sackville, Antigonish, Wolfville), or is a tourist town (Saint Andrews, Shediac, Lunenburg, Baddeck), there will be lots of interesting shops and restaurants. If the town is a market town servicing an adjacent farming region, then it will contain many services and will be a regional shopping centre.

It's only remote fishing villages, or forestry/mining towns that will feel rough around the edges.

[MolsonExport]

I see that the xenophobic rants by a certain forumer have been allowed to persist, but my objections to these xenophobic rants were unceremoniously deleted.

something is badly off with the modding in this thread.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I don't like banning people and really think we, as a forum, should use that tool very, very, sparingly... but...

You just crossed a huge line.

At the very least, you should be suspended.

Agreed.