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  #14101  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2020, 6:28 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by bradnixon View Post
Exactly, but also, not *all* trains seem to be having this problem. So is it a design issue, or defects with parts/manufacturing on some vehicles, or a maintenance issue?

There's certainly urgency to get this figured out, and I'd like to hear more from Alstom, not just RTG. RTG subcontracts to Alstom, so they are both the maintainer and the manufacturer of the vehicles.
Random chance or an ill fitted seal most likely. Calgary's older trains had problems with drawing in powdery snow into the electronics which were mounted below the floor. Ottawa's having problems with wet snow or water coming into the roof boxes which probably have to be ventilated for heat dissipation. Frustrating for sure.



I'm beginning to see why London insisted on a 9 month trial period for Crossrail! Of course someone has to pay for it if you want it though.
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  #14102  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2020, 7:36 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Ottawa ran trams with overhead wires from 1891 to 1959. Surely, overhead wires is a workable system in this climate. We would have equal problems with ice accumulation with a third rail system, plus an increased safety risk with so much of the rail line at grade. At grade operations mean possible encroachment by trespassers, pets and wildlife.
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  #14103  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 2:39 AM
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Why are staff blowing whistles at every LRT station? A faulty camera system: sources
To signal the all-clear, the platform staff blow a whistle and the train starts rolling. This is supposed to repeat before every train leaves every station whenever the Confederation Line is operating.

Taylor Blewett, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: January 28, 2020


Reliability issues with the Confederation Line’s camera system have necessitated the full-time installation of whistle-blowing platform staff at every one of Ottawa’s LRT stations to ensure trains depart safely, this newspaper has learned.

According to multiple people with knowledge of its operations, the light rail system is equipped with cameras that feed into a display in the operator’s cab, offering a view of the train doors and surrounding platform area while at a station. Sources said that the camera system is unreliable and has failed to operate at times.

As a safety measure, staff have been contracted at every station to ensure no one remains in the yellow hazard area at the edge of the platform once the doors have closed. To signal the all-clear, the platform staff blow a whistle and the train starts rolling. This is supposed to repeat before every train leaves every station whenever the Confederation Line is operating.

According to sources, who were granted anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media, there’s no concrete end date for the use of whistling officials to clear trains for departure.

It’s unclear how often the camera system falters or how long it will take to fix.

This newspaper reached out to LRT-builder Rideau Transit Group and the City of Ottawa early Tuesday morning with questions about the camera system’s reliability problems, and the use of the whistle blowers as a redundancy mechanism.

RTG did not acknowledge an email and voicemail. The City of Ottawa did not provide a response to questions by the end of the day on Tuesday.

It’s been a rough ride for the Confederation Line in recent weeks when it comes to equipment reliability. On Monday, Ottawa’s transportation general manager John Manconi reported that the light rail vehicles appear more prone to power loss during “wet or inclement weather,” and that the root cause of this is under investigation.

Meanwhile, some train wheels have developed flat spots that need to be rounded out. Track switches have also been problem-plagued.

In a transit commission meeting last week, the chief executive of RTG’s maintenance arm said the company has been consumed with reacting to problems rather than studying day-to-day operational issues.

This led to the hiring of JBA Corp., international rail experts brought on to examine a dozen issues flagged by the city about LRT maintenance. The consultants have been helping the City of Ottawa’s transportation department figure out if RTG is off track with the maintenance program, and now RTG, which is a partnership of ACS Infrastructure, EllisDon and SNC-Lavalin, has hired the consultants to fix troubles related to LRT upkeep.

JBA has experience with Alstom trains and infrastructure.

-With files from Jon Willing

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...system-sources
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  #14104  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 2:43 AM
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City holding back monthly maintenance money, but will RTG ever get it?
RTG’s monthly maintenance payments range between $4 million and $5 million.

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Updated: January 28, 2020


The city is holding back millions of dollars in monthly payments to the Rideau Transit Group during the LRT maintenance debacle but it’s not clear if the municipal government will have to eventually pay up.

One transit commissioner tried to tease that information out of city management at last week’s transit commission meeting but was denied the information. It wasn’t time or place to discuss such a matter, even after the meeting was over, transportation GM John Manconi said.

The financial impact to the city attributed to the unreliable LRT system is murky during the maintenance period, just like it was during the construction period when the city was billing RTG for extra costs associated with delays. The question of who’s responsible for construction delay costs, which were at least $25 million in the city’s eyes, still isn’t resolved.

The city is keeping money that would otherwise be paid to RTG for maintenance, while also billing the company for extra costs associated with the shaky LRT service, such as supplementary bus service and a three-month fare freeze. Even the costs for outside experts hired by the city to check in on RTG’s maintenance program are expected to be charged to RTG.

RTG’s monthly maintenance payments range between $4 million and $5 million but the consortium hasn’t been receiving the money because the LRT system hasn’t delivered reliable service since last October. The Confederation Line launched on Sept. 14.

LRT service was still far below the city’s expectations Tuesday as RTG, for the second day in a row, made nine trains available for the busiest times of day. Usually 13 trains are required for peak-hour service, but RTG has had a lag in maintenance, this time chalked up to vehicle power problems.

OC Transpo planned to cancel 124 bus route trips across the network Tuesday so buses could be used for overflow customers along the LRT route.

RTG also had problems supplying the necessary number of trains last week.

The city purchased 17 double-vehicle Alstom Citadis Spirit trains for Stage 1 LRT, plus another 38 of the Alstom trains for Stage 2 LRT.

RTG, through its upkeep division Rideau Transit Maintenance, has a 30-year maintenance agreement with the city for the Confederation Line.

The company is missing out on millions in payments from the city, but no one at RTG or the city has shown concern about the financial health of the consortium, which is made up of three large firms: ACS Infrastructure, EllisDon and SNC-Lavalin.

During the transit commission meeting last Thursday, citizen transit commissioner Sarah Wright-Gilbert asked about the city’s intention when it came to the holdback money.

Manconi said the question wasn’t for the transit commission to ask because it was more suited for the finance and economic development committee, which is chaired by Mayor Jim Watson and normally receives information about legal matters. Manconi gave the same rationale to reporters who asked for clarification on the holdback money when the transit meeting was over.

The next finance and economic development committee meeting is scheduled for next week, but LRT wasn’t on the published agenda as of Tuesday.

jwilling@postmedia.com
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...tg-ever-get-it
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  #14105  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 6:30 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I attended an early consultation and light metro-small heavy rail system was exactly what was recommended by Kinki Sharyo. They argued that it was more appropriate than LRT based on projected ridership and climate. And then of course, the city's planners got ridiculously fixated on the idea of running LRT on the street at the end of the line.....
What is a light metro-small heavy rail system? Heavy rail but narrower?
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  #14106  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 2:23 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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I wonder if the issue with the trains in "wet weather" are in any way similar to this issue that the streetcars in Toronto had a couple of years ago with their trolley poles.

https://stevemunro.ca/2018/02/22/pro...-flexity-cars/

Perhaps more lack of appropriate maintenance on the carbon inserts in the pantographs + wet conditions = power surges and breakers popping open.


But this is a pretty uneducated guess.
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  #14107  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 3:01 PM
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Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
I wonder if the issue with the trains in "wet weather" are in any way similar to this issue that the streetcars in Toronto had a couple of years ago with their trolley poles.

https://stevemunro.ca/2018/02/22/pro...-flexity-cars/

Perhaps more lack of appropriate maintenance on the carbon inserts in the pantographs + wet conditions = power surges and breakers popping open.


But this is a pretty uneducated guess.
Interesting idea. If this is indeed the cause, it could also explain the broken catenary wire. If the carbons wear out completely, the wire will drag against the metal, accelerating the wear of the wire.
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  #14108  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 6:53 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCCheetos View Post
I wonder if the issue with the trains in "wet weather" are in any way similar to this issue that the streetcars in Toronto had a couple of years ago with their trolley poles.

https://stevemunro.ca/2018/02/22/pro...-flexity-cars/

Perhaps more lack of appropriate maintenance on the carbon inserts in the pantographs + wet conditions = power surges and breakers popping open.


But this is a pretty uneducated guess.
I've heard rumor that the "cleaning" and other arcing issues we've had have actually been attributed to the carbon contacts in the pans. They last longer than the streetcar ones due to their size, so checking them often isn't as critical, but now it is catching up with them.
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  #14109  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 8:05 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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I wonder if it is another symptom of a maintenance guide written for streetcar speeds being applied for a tram-train system speeds. The square law and all increasing wear rates not linearly.
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  #14110  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 8:18 PM
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Behind the Scenes : Transit Operations Control Centre (TOCC)

O-Train Fans goes Behind the Scenes at OC Transpo's Transit Operations Control Centre (TOCC). The TOCC is the multi-modal nerve centre of OC Transpo's entire operations, which include rail (O-Train), bus, para and security (Special Constables).

https://www.otrainfans.ca/confederat...ol-centre-tocc
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  #14111  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2020, 11:37 PM
OCCheetos OCCheetos is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Interesting idea. If this is indeed the cause, it could also explain the broken catenary wire. If the carbons wear out completely, the wire will drag against the metal, accelerating the wear of the wire.
I think if the metal ever drags across the wire, that'll immediately cause the kinds of problems that trigger the breakers to open. But I'm not an electrical engineer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catenary View Post
I've heard rumor that the "cleaning" and other arcing issues we've had have actually been attributed to the carbon contacts in the pans. They last longer than the streetcar ones due to their size, so checking them often isn't as critical, but now it is catching up with them.
If it is, then it would be somewhat reassuring to know that our latest round of problems are basically all because of shoddy maintenance, and not because the trains "wErEn'T dEsiGNeD fOr WinTeR". We can fix shoddy maintenance pretty easily.
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  #14112  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 12:04 AM
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What's an 'arcing flash,' and why is it ruining your commute?
No danger when sparks fly on Confederation Line, city assures LRT passengers

Laura Osman · CBC News
Posted: Jan 28, 2020 12:05 PM ET | Last Updated: January 28


Riki Philogene was on his way to work on Ottawa's Confederation Line Saturday afternoon when he was startled by what sounded like a gunshot.

He and his fellow passengers on the westbound train froze, and as they approached Tremblay Station, they heard the sound twice more. Then sparks began showering past one of the windows.

"When we saw the sparks, that's why we were like, OK, lets just leave the train. Because you don't know what's going to happen next," Philogene told CBC.

Meanwhile, nine stops to the west, Melanie Grant stood on the platform at Tunney's Pasture station, waiting for a train. Suddenly, she spotted a flame flickering where the arm atop a stationary train across the tracks met the power cable above. She and the other people on the platforms edged away nervously, unsure what was about to happen next.

"I mean, we were told there would be growing pains and stuff, but I wasn't expecting to stand on the platform and think, oh, what if that explodes?" Grant said.

Since those incidents on Saturday, city officials have said emphatically that the public was never in danger from what they and Rideau Transit Maintenance (RTM) are calling "arcing flashes."

Arcing flashes happen when the arm that extends from the train, called the pantograph, loses contact with the power cable above, or the catenary. That loss of contact is what causes the loud bang and the sparks, and causes the trains to lose power.

The phenomenon is common in train systems with overhead electrical power, according to Troy Charter, the city's director of transit operations. But the issue has only been causing LRT delays since late December, and first came to the public's attention during a particularly long delay on New Year's Eve.

At the time, city and LRT officials blamed a buildup of dirt on the electrical components of the trains.

"This is something that with proper maintenance should not have occurred," Charter told the city's transit commission just last week. In response, RTM assured commissioners it had stepped up efforts to clean and inspect the trains, and the problem seemed to have been resolved.

But two days later, during Saturday's snowstorm, it happened again.

"The vehicles appear to be more prone to these failures during wet or inclement weather," the city's transit manager, John Manconi, wrote in a memo to council Monday. The root cause of the issue is still under investigation by RTM, Manconi wrote.

While Manconi said he recognizes the incidents cause inconvenient delays for passengers, arcing flashes are actually a sign the system is working properly. Like a circuit breaker in your home, the trains are shutting down as a defence mechanism against damage from irregular voltage.

The trains often do sustain damage and require repairs after arcing flashes. Such was the case on New Year's Eve, when officials described what looked like a burn mark on the train's roof. They also replaced some of the electrical components out of an "abundance of caution," Rideau Transit Group CEO Peter Lauch told the transit commission last week.

In other cases, the required repairs are more substantial, which contributed to this week's ongoing train shortage.

The city has promised to release more information about any further measures needed to fix and prevent arcing flashes once they're confirmed by RTM.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...-lrt-1.5442342

Last edited by rocketphish; Jan 30, 2020 at 12:26 AM.
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  #14113  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 6:01 AM
TheMatth69 TheMatth69 is offline
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Train broke down tonight at 12am just before the Tunney's Pasture switch. Had to wait 20min for another train to come and the line was single tracked between Tunney's and Parliament.
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  #14114  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:01 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Is everyone happy that the city rushed to get the line open as soon as possible?

Part of me feels that had they not had the delays, and they had done full testing for longer they might have caught some of these things.
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  #14115  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:07 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Is everyone happy that the city rushed to get the line open as soon as possible?

Part of me feels that had they not had the delays, and they had done full testing for longer they might have caught some of these things.
Or, we could have waited months more for the trains to start running and faced all of the same problems anyway ....
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  #14116  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:33 PM
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Not sure I would call this a "rush" opening.

When the Confederation Line finally opened it was around a year and a half behind schedule based on the opening date that was announced at the start of the project.

I admittedly have no idea how long these things should typically take, but the project received final approval in late 2012, the contract was awarded in early 2013, and construction started in the spring of 2013.

The above-ground sections required no right-of-way clearing work and grade separations were already there, and they were testing rolling stock on portions of the line as early as the end of 2016 I am pretty sure.

And we are now at the end of January 2020.
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  #14117  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not sure I would call this a "rush" opening.

When the Confederation Line finally opened it was around a year and a half behind schedule based on the opening date that was announced at the start of the project.

I admittedly have no idea how long these things should typically take, but the project received final approval in late 2012, the contract was awarded in early 2013, and construction started in the spring of 2013.

The above-ground sections required no right-of-way clearing work and grade separations were already there, and they were testing rolling stock on portions of the line as early as the end of 2016 I am pretty sure.

And we are now at the end of January 2020.
But many experts were saying that the 'due date' was too early by at least a year.
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  #14118  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 4:00 PM
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daud daud is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not sure I would call this a "rush" opening.

When the Confederation Line finally opened it was around a year and a half behind schedule based on the opening date that was announced at the start of the project.

I admittedly have no idea how long these things should typically take, but the project received final approval in late 2012, the contract was awarded in early 2013, and construction started in the spring of 2013.

The above-ground sections required no right-of-way clearing work and grade separations were already there, and they were testing rolling stock on portions of the line as early as the end of 2016 I am pretty sure.

And we are now at the end of January 2020.
Canadian Pacific Railway was 1600 KM and built in 4 years but admittedly used some pretty abhorrent labour practices.

Still, I think its a big disappointment to see where we are at after so much time. Maybe when stage 2 starts running, we'll be in a better spot.
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  #14119  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 4:26 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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Canadian Pacific Railway was 1600 KM and built in 4 years but admittedly used some pretty abhorrent labour practices.
But they didn't have the giant earth moving/blasting machine we have today, imagine if they had those back then?
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  #14120  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2020, 4:27 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Is everyone happy that the city rushed to get the line open as soon as possible?

Part of me feels that had they not had the delays, and they had done full testing for longer they might have caught some of these things.
Keep in mind that the bus system was stressed beyond its limit back in early September. The busiest weeks of the year are always the first 2 weeks of September, and the buses were already struggling with the reduced summer demand. The train, even if imperfect, seemed like a savior at the time.
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