HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1561  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2009, 1:29 PM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
If we are going to spend $5B or $6B, why haven't we more seriously considered a partially tunneled Eglinton-style rapid transit line for Carling and Montreal Road?
I always said that the stations could be dug up under intersections, that way you don't require massive infrastructure costs.

In any case, the planned costs for the Eglington LRT is 300M$ per km, that is even above current subway costs. Many analysts figure that the tunnels and stations will be subway standard for future easy conversion.

It says Eglington RT, not LRT in the plans, so is Scarborough, even if there's a change in technology. There were talks of swicthing that corridor to subway, using the existing ROW.

Not only converting the Transitway is expensive, it also gives an additional transfer. Remember that the consultants for Delcan are ex city of Ottawa employees.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1562  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2009, 1:30 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
Err, what?
We saw that in the strike - since OC Transpo (and STO) cross the Ontario-Quebec border, they fall under federal regulations for operations. This should also be an interprovincial project as well.

Ottawa's fair share equivalent - wherever it came from - would be about $1.3 billion relative to the GTA's $9 billion.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1563  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2009, 4:14 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 1,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
...
STO also partners with various organizations and events so smart card pass holders can get discounts. So for example last weekend I went to the Salon du livre (book fair) and got two-for-one admission.
...
Forgot to mention that OC Transpo also partners to save you money.

Until May 31, with a valid pass or transfer, you can get 2-for-1 admission to museums.
http://www.octranspo.com/mapscheds/u.../Museum_Ad.pdf
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1564  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2009, 8:04 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 1,957
For those interested in the OC Transpo implementation of the Presto Smartcard:

In November 2007, Ottawa City Council approved participation in the Presto smartcard system. A limited Ottawa field test is planned for the fall of 2010 and city-wide implementation is planned for winter of 2011.

Municipalities surrounding Toronto will begin trials in September of 2009.
The TTC has not yet signed on to Presto, but is expected to once all the bugs are worked out of the system.

The current thinking/planning as I understand it:

- It is recommended that the card NOT require an accompanying ID photo. This makes the card transferable, although it might be declared as “NON-Transferable”, similar to paper transfers now. Declaring the pass as non-transferable will likely have little effect since there will be no way to enforce that rule. It is also possible that it will be a transferable or ‘transfer-permitted’ pass. If so, a parent might buy a pass for work, but the children could use it during evenings and week-ends. Also, assuming no U-Pass, the University of Ottawa Student Union could buy 100 passes and divide them between the Main and Lees Campuses, allowing students to use the shared passes to shuttle between classes.

- The Presto card can be concurrently configured as a Pass AND as a Purse. This will allow people to have extra stored money on their pass to pay for Express Top-ups, or to pay for accompanying riders. For example, a parent could have a card which functions as their monthly pass, but also can be used to pay for an extra child’s fare when they go to the museum on the week-end. In this case, the default transaction use of the card is as a Pass with Operator assistance required to have an additional, separate fare deducted from the Purse. There is no requirement to have both functions; the card could simply be a Pass OR a Purse.

- The card’s Purse can, optionally, be configured to have an automatic re-load of value. It is currently thought that a minimum value of $10 can be added to the card. There has not yet been a determined re-load point or minimum stored value on the card, and this might be a user configurable thing. For example, one person might want to re-load whenever the stored value drops below $10, while another person might be happy with $1 left before re-loading their card. If the card is set-up with the optional re-load feature, then the card will be able to go into debt, or hold a negative balance, until it is re-loaded that evening. The re-load requirement will be calculated by the main system after the nightly up-load of bus data. For example, if a person took three rides using a card which only had enough value for two rides, the third ride would cause the card to store a negative value, but would not be barred due to insufficient funds. Once the data from the three buses was up-loaded, the main database would be updated with each ride taken, in chronological order, based on the time-stamps of the rides. At the point that the re-load point is reached, the new funds will be transferred in and the updating continued. This will cause the database to have a different value than that stored on the card, thus the card is added to the ‘Changed’ list.

- The main card database is held off-line, but every night, every bus will be updated with a list of “Black-listed” cards, and a list of Changed cards. Black-listed cards are cards which will not be honoured on the buses; changed cards are those which have had their expiration date or value altered. The first time a card on the Changed list is used, the card will be updated from the bus’s information. For example, if a card’s value was re-loaded over night, the next morning, the card’s negative value will be replaced with the database value before the new transaction is processed. The same happens if the expiry date has changed, or any other information. In fact, the same process could be used for black-listed cards also, by simply changing the expiry date to a past date and zeroing the value.

STO cards will be included in the database which is down-loaded to the buses so that black-listed and changes STO cards can also be handled.

The same functions will need to be performed by the HCR (Hand-held Card Readers) that the Fare Inspectors use, since any changes to the card’s values must be updated before its validity can be ascertained. The HCR should not, however, need to do any processing itself, so it need not store any transaction records and should not be required to up-load any data to the main database.

- Every transaction is recorded to the bus’s databases and the last five transactions are stored on the card. These records are used to determine if the card has already been updated, if a transfer is within the time limit, etc., and are up-loaded nightly to the main database. Fare Inspectors, with their HCRs, will have access to the history of the last five trips taken with the card; this might be required if when the check is done the transfer time has expired, but the current bus was boarded within the time limit. In this case, the Inspector will need to manually calculate if the last boarding time was within the allotted time. I don’t know if this will cause trouble.

Additionally, there might be privacy issues about the Fare Inspector having access to the last five boarding records. It might be possible for these records to span many hours or days: I suggest that the records displayed be restricted to only those which might be applicable to validating the specific ride.

- The total time of the boarding transaction is to be less than 300 milliseconds. This time will include the card power-up time; hand-shaking and presentation of the card’s number and other data to the bus; the bus validating the card and its data; re-loading the card data if required; passing the card the amount to be deducted; waiting for and getting the card’s acknowledgment; storing the transaction record on the bus and on the card; and lighting the appropriate light and sounding the tone.

A green light and ‘happy’ tone will accompany a successful transaction; a red light and ‘attention-getting’ tone for a refusal; and a yellow light will be presented with the ‘attention-getting’ tone if there is a technical problem with the transaction. I believe the Operator will be able to over-ride the system, thus, if a person is denied boarding onto an Express Bus because they have their Presto card configured as a Regular Pass with no Purse, the Operator can let them on with a cash top-up. I expect that such a transaction is recorded as a fail with Operator intervention. The passenger would require a paper transfer/POP.

- Multiple fares can be removed from the Purse on one boarding, as when one person pays for several friends, only with Operator assistance. Under normal operation, only one fare will be removed for the duration of the transfer time. This will allay the fear that a card’s value might be drained by standing too close to the reader.

However, I am not sure if a transaction record is stored with each of those card-reads. It might be that the same bus will not record a transaction from the same card within the transfer period. This has a potential drawback of not recording some ‘stop-overs’; where a person leaves a bus to do some shopping on the way home, and happens to catch the same physical bus on its next pass, but still within the time limit, to complete the journey home. This might not be a significant problem, though, as it will probably be a rare case and missing those records might be inconsequential.

- Registration of the Presto card might be optional, but registration provides insurance against card loss, since a registered card can be replaced with its database value transferred to the new card. No personal data is stored on the card, and is only in the main database if it is supplied during registration. Any personal data stored is used solely to provide identification for the insurance function.

- Money paid for passes is immediately transferred to OC Transpo by Presto, less a 1% administration fee, while money loaded into Purses is held by Presto and transferred to OC Transpo as it is spent, less 1%. Any interest accrued on the Purse amounts is divvied up and returned to the member transit companies; I don’t know if this too is subject to the 1% fee. A 1% fee is what OC Transpo currently pays to ticket and pass venders. I also don’t know if the network of venders will be abandoned, leaving only OC Transpo outlets as the sole source of the cards. From what I heard, OC Transpo is hoping to save money by not issuing paper passes and tickets, and is expecting to be able to reduce the staffing and real estate requirements at their own outlets due to a smaller month-end demand bulge. If OC Transpo outlets become the only places to get the Presto cards, there might not be a drop in the required customer relations staff. The cost of the physical Presto card will be recaptured by charging $5 for the cards.

- In an effort to maintain the ‘status quo’, the Pass card rules will be as similar as practical to the current pass rules. Thus, the next month’s pass can be purchased after the 20th of the month, and only one extra month can be purchased at a time. Restrictions as to what types of buses can be boarded will also apply, based on what type of Presto Pass was purchased, with cash top-ups required to ride the more expensive routes.

I find it curious that there will be such restrictions on pre-purchasing passes, or purchasing passes of specific durations. It looks as if the pass expiry date is determined by a stored date in the database and is not linked to a particular month by name. For example, if a month is purchased, the date is set to the last date of the month; for a semester pass, that date is the end of the semester; and annual passes terminate with the year. Since the expiry date can be set to any date, why is there an arbitrary restriction on what can be purchased? A contract worker might want to purchase a pass for a three month contract: A company might want to have a foreign worker live and work in Ottawa for a six month period and would like to supply a Presto card covering that period: A convention or sports group might want to supply passes to their members for the two weeks they are in town: Tourists might want to purchase a 3-day or 5-day pass to tour the city’s sights. All of these options are possible, but are currently rejected because they don’t match what we currently sell as paper passes.

- The current budget of $21M accounts for readers only at the front doors of the buses. It would be possible to add readers at all doors, but that would mean dive per Arctic, since the rear doors are double width. It would get very expensive. Thus, people with Purse passes will be required to board by the front door, even when they are transferring, similar to today with paper transfers.

OC Transpo's unofficial motto "We are all for radical change, as long as the system is the same in the end."

Heck yeah, we want to change to Smartcards - as long as they can emulate our current paper pass, ticket, and transfer system.

Heck yeah, we want to change to LRT - as long as it follows our current routes and we can still use our buses.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1565  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2009, 8:56 PM
waterloowarrior's Avatar
waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 9,244
Thanks for the update Richard. To think I had so much faith in the system just a few pages back.... sounds like it's being botched.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1566  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2009, 9:37 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 1,957
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
Thanks for the update Richard. To think I had so much faith in the system just a few pages back.... sounds like it's being botched.
Well, there are now 715 'requirements' of the Presto card. 285 of those are Ottawa specific - mostly because we are so pass-based and want to keep things that way.

It will be rolled out to certain groups at a time; for example, maybe the Express ECO-PASS guys will get to use it first, with only a sub-set of features specific to them. Ultimately, the system will work fine, but it will cost more and be more complex than first envisioned.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1567  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2009, 10:08 PM
Dado's Avatar
Dado Dado is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky View Post
Sure there are:
"Measured Peak Hour Passenger Flow (Passengers / Hour)
Designated Lane: Ankara, Istanbul, Abidjan 7,300 – 19,500
Designated Lanes with Feeders Curitiba, Brazil 13,900 – 24,100
Designated Lanes with Bus Ordering (Travelling in Clusters) Porto Alegre 17,500 – 18,300
Designated Lanes with Overlapping Routes, Passing at Stations and Express Routes
Belo Horizonte, São Paulo 15,800-20,300
Bogotá 35,000-40,000 [4]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit
Nothing like a little quoting of stats from multilane BRT systems, or systems where there are double-articulated buses (25 m length) packed with 250-270 people (Calgary's 25 m long CTrain cars are considered at crush capacity at 200 and there's more floor space in them than in a bus). At least some of these systems also have level boarding by means of automatic ramps on the buses.

"Flow" is also a term of some dispute. There's some controversy that the measure is not over an entire hour but rather over a short interval (3-6 minutes) and then factored up to an hour. That seems to be the case in Ottawa, where we've apparently had a "flow" of 10,000 pphpd for 15 years.

Quote:
Double-deck buses also make the stops more compact improving service.
They also mean more passengers using fewer doors and it may not be appropriate for achieving short dwell times. Using them on trunk routes like the #94 and #96 is probably the wrong way to employ them. They'd be better if they were used from an "offline" type platform arrangement (like what you find at bus terminals and at GO Stations) where their slower boarding won't matter as much. Honestly though, they should go on urban routes like the #1, #2, etc., that have a few people getting on/off at each stop in a corridor with constrained spaces.
__________________
Ottawa's quasi-official motto: "It can't be done"
Ottawa's quasi-official ethos: "We have a process to follow"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1568  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2009, 4:35 PM
Franky's Avatar
Franky Franky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Nothing like a little quoting of stats from multilane BRT systems, or systems where there are double-articulated buses (25 m length) packed with 250-270 people (Calgary's 25 m long CTrain cars are considered at crush capacity at 200 and there's more floor space in them than in a bus). At least some of these systems also have level boarding by means of automatic ramps on the buses.
The Delcan BRT tunnel numbers were for 2 lane tunnels, so what's the problem?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
"Flow" is also a term of some dispute. There's some controversy that the measure is not over an entire hour but rather over a short interval (3-6 minutes) and then factored up to an hour. That seems to be the case in Ottawa, where we've apparently had a "flow" of 10,000 pphpd for 15 years.
The 10,000 pphpd for Ottawa are from sources more credible than your claims of fudging the numbers. Rush "hour" is modelled as 2.7 hours in the Delcan study, so it's more than "3-6 minutes" in duration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
They also mean more passengers using fewer doors and it may not be appropriate for achieving short dwell times. Using them on trunk routes like the #94 and #96 is probably the wrong way to employ them. They'd be better if they were used from an "offline" type platform arrangement (like what you find at bus terminals and at GO Stations) where their slower boarding won't matter as much. Honestly though, they should go on urban routes like the #1, #2, etc., that have a few people getting on/off at each stop in a corridor with constrained spaces.
If you look at that 25 m LRV, That's 2 double-deck buses' worth and so 4 doors for about the same number of passengers - but with more seats.
__________________
Francois
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1569  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2009, 7:09 PM
Dado's Avatar
Dado Dado is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky View Post
The Delcan BRT tunnel numbers were for 2 lane tunnels, so what's the problem?
It's like going around in circles... it really is.

The Delcan LRT tunnel numbers were for single track (lane) tunnels, so, on a per lane/track basis, LRT is still coming out way ahead. Once you add a second lane per direction for BRT, to maintain the comparison you then have to add a second track per direction for LRT. To get your BRT throughput you're having to grade separate in downtown (which isn't required for LRT up to about 15,000 pphpd) and then you're having to build not one but two two-lane tunnels, both of which would be more expensive than the LRT equivalent due to diameter and ventilation.

Quote:
The 10,000 pphpd for Ottawa are from sources more credible than your claims of fudging the numbers. Rush "hour" is modelled as 2.7 hours in the Delcan study, so it's more than "3-6 minutes" in duration.
The number from Ottawa is from, well, Ottawa / the RMOC / OC Transpo, so it's not nearly as credible as you think it is. The 10,000 claim - this was a claim of realized throughput, not theoretical - has existed from a time when ridership levels were much lower than now. So what's going on? Ridership has increased, but not at all during the peak hour in downtown Ottawa? How does that make sense? And on top of that we didn't used to have anything like the number of artics in operation nor the bus jams that we now have at peak periods. Again, something is not adding up.

The reason it's not adding up is likely because we never had 10,000 pphpd in the peak hour in the early 90s - instead we just had a brief pulse of a few minutes' duration, which, if sustained over an entire hour, would give 10,000. We probably do have about 10,000 today, but we didn't 10+ years ago at the time that OC Transpo was claiming that we did.

Oh, and you think my claim of them fudging the numbers isn't credible? Well perhaps you'd like a more credible source? Say, a report prepared for the City by consultants who hadn't done much prior work for the City? Would that convince you? Well such a report exists. It's called the Rapid Transit Expansion Study from 2002/2003 and it's in the Ottawa Room of the main branch of the Public Library. In it on page 4-2 you'll find Exhibit 4.1 which gives then-current (i.e. 2002) peak hour Transitway ridership. Would you care to take a guess at the maximum number on that chart? A hint: it has 4 digits, not 5.

The maximum number on that chart is 7000 and that occurs on the East Transitway around the University of Ottawa campus. That's some 3000 - or 30% - below the number claimed about a decade earlier! This is also about two years before OC Transpo found it necessary to start curtailing downtown routes. So they weren't even up to 10,000 and OC Transpo already had capacity problems. But hey, what does an independent consultant and logic matter? If OC Transpo says it is so, then it must be, right?
__________________
Ottawa's quasi-official motto: "It can't be done"
Ottawa's quasi-official ethos: "We have a process to follow"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1570  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2009, 8:24 PM
Franky's Avatar
Franky Franky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It's like going around in circles... it really is.

The Delcan LRT tunnel numbers were for single track (lane) tunnels, so, on a per lane/track basis, LRT is still coming out way ahead. Once you add a second lane per direction for BRT, to maintain the comparison you then have to add a second track per direction for LRT. To get your BRT throughput you're having to grade separate in downtown (which isn't required for LRT up to about 15,000 pphpd) and then you're having to build not one but two two-lane tunnels, both of which would be more expensive than the LRT equivalent due to diameter and ventilation.
We only need about 16,000 pphpd in the city core (including local buses) by 2031, so either a single lane LRT (per direction) in a tunnel or double lane LRT per direction on the surface.

The cost of a two lane BRT tunnel isn't that much more money because the station cost are pretty much constant.

Do we agree that BRT and LRT are just about equivalent yet? If so, do we agree that changing one for the other is just a waste of money?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
The number from Ottawa is from, well, Ottawa / the RMOC / OC Transpo, so it's not nearly as credible as you think it is. The 10,000 claim - this was a claim of realized throughput, not theoretical - has existed from a time when ridership levels were much lower than now. So what's going on? Ridership has increased, but not at all during the peak hour in downtown Ottawa? How does that make sense? And on top of that we didn't used to have anything like the number of artics in operation nor the bus jams that we now have at peak periods. Again, something is not adding up.
Simple explanation: Peak hour period is longer now than it was then, reaching 2.7 hours by 2031 according to delcan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post

The reason it's not adding up is likely because we never had 10,000 pphpd in the peak hour in the early 90s - instead we just had a brief pulse of a few minutes' duration, which, if sustained over an entire hour, would give 10,000. We probably do have about 10,000 today, but we didn't 10+ years ago at the time that OC Transpo was claiming that we did.
Speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post

Oh, and you think my claim of them fudging the numbers isn't credible? Well perhaps you'd like a more credible source? Say, a report prepared for the City by consultants who hadn't done much prior work for the City? Would that convince you? Well such a report exists. It's called the Rapid Transit Expansion Study from 2002/2003 and it's in the Ottawa Room of the main branch of the Public Library. In it on page 4-2 you'll find Exhibit 4.1 which gives then-current (i.e. 2002) peak hour Transitway ridership. Would you care to take a guess at the maximum number on that chart? A hint: it has 4 digits, not 5.
This study is not available online so details/circumstances can't be examined.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post

The maximum number on that chart is 7000 and that occurs on the East Transitway around the University of Ottawa campus. That's some 3000 - or 30% - below the number claimed about a decade earlier! This is also about two years before OC Transpo found it necessary to start curtailing downtown routes. So they weren't even up to 10,000 and OC Transpo already had capacity problems. But hey, what does an independent consultant and logic matter? If OC Transpo says it is so, then it must be, right?
So, which one is accurate? I would think OC Transpo would have better access to numbers and I have no idea where your study gets it's numbers. Did they average over a longer period? Did they count on a summer day or winter day or was it a yearly average?
__________________
Francois
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1571  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2009, 9:42 PM
waterloowarrior's Avatar
waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 9,244
off topic

Last edited by waterloowarrior; Apr 5, 2009 at 3:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1572  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2009, 10:07 PM
Franky's Avatar
Franky Franky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
this is from the RTES

This chart says:
BRT 15,000 pphpd (no mention of Double-deck buses)
LRT 18,000 pphpd
Monorail 20,000 pphpd

Edit: also interesting is the O&M numbers in line with the delcan study numbers.
__________________
Francois

Last edited by Franky; Apr 4, 2009 at 10:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1573  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2009, 11:21 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,446
^ Remember, Future of Ottawa Transit is for BRT vs LRT, this one is about options under the existing approved plan.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1574  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2009, 12:04 AM
ikerrin ikerrin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
If we are going to spend $5B or $6B, why haven't we more seriously considered a partially tunneled Eglinton-style rapid transit line for Carling and Montreal Road?
I think that those routes make more sense for above ground LRT for the time being, but I do agree that we should be tunneling more than the current plans call for. Its a complete waste to bring the LRT along the Parkway past Wesboro. I say that you take the subway underground just before the parkway. Set up a Westboro West stop just past Roosevelt where the highrises are and the new constructruction is rising, add another stop at Lincoln Fields, another at the Carling Ave Transit way station. From there you can run a north line to Farhaven along the existing transit way, and the other subway continues West to Bayshore and then finally emerges above ground to use the existing railway tracks out to Kanata.

Sure its expensive - but we are only talking 6 km to get the job done, and think of all the money you can make allowing highrises to grow around each station. There is tonnes of land that could be permanently redesignated high-density around each underground shop and you get transit that actually serves existing neighbourhoods.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1575  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2009, 12:21 AM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikerrin View Post
I think that those routes make more sense for above ground LRT for the time being, but I do agree that we should be tunneling more than the current plans call for. Its a complete waste to bring the LRT along the Parkway past Wesboro. I say that you take the subway underground just before the parkway. Set up a Westboro West stop just past Roosevelt where the highrises are and the new constructruction is rising, add another stop at Lincoln Fields, another at the Carling Ave Transit way station. From there you can run a north line to Farhaven along the existing transit way, and the other subway continues West to Bayshore and then finally emerges above ground to use the existing railway tracks out to Kanata.

Sure its expensive - but we are only talking 6 km to get the job done, and think of all the money you can make allowing highrises to grow around each station. There is tonnes of land that could be permanently redesignated high-density around each underground shop and you get transit that actually serves existing neighbourhoods.
What's wrong with the Richmond/Byron alignment? The only issues I can think of are:

*It would require a short tunnel between Lincoln Fields and Richardson Avenue before returning to an at-grade alignment
*It would have to be trenched or elevated at Woodroffe Avenue (since that cannot be closed)
*It would have to be trenched to get back under Richmond Road and return to the current Transitway
*At least 1 or 2 pedestrian crossings should be considered, plus at all the stations

I'd relocate Dominion Station into the field between Richmond Road and the Transitway as it curves on the diagonal alignment (basically, west about 300m), and add Woodroffe Station about 350m east of Woodroffe roughly where Lockhart Avenue is now (at-grade, before dropping/elevating). Both would be side-loading local stations with transfers at the streets.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1576  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2009, 12:49 AM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by ikerrin View Post
Sure its expensive - but we are only talking 6 km to get the job done, and think of all the money you can make allowing highrises to grow around each station. There is tonnes of land that could be permanently redesignated high-density around each underground shop and you get transit that actually serves existing neighbourhoods.
This would work in another city but not in Ottawa. High rises? Work of the devil I say! Burn them down!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1577  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2009, 3:01 AM
Franky's Avatar
Franky Franky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,551
.
__________________
Francois

Last edited by Franky; Apr 5, 2009 at 3:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1578  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2009, 3:46 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,916
Quote:
Transitway – buses operating on exclusive two-lane busways. Capacity of 10,000 passengers per hour per direction. Average speed: 40-80 km/h depending on stop spacing. Example: Ottawa Transitway system, average speed of 40 to 60 km/h.
Light Rail Transit (LRT) – streetcar trains (up to three or four cars per train) operating on protected rights-of-way adjacent to or in the medians of roadways or rail rights-of-way with at-grade intersections, possibly with some sections operating in mixed-traffic and/or in tunnels. Electric power is normally via an overhead trolley or pantograph. Capacity of up to 15,000 passengers per hour per direction, with even higher capacities on completely segregated rights-of-way. Average speed: 15 to 30 km/h in mixed traffic; 30 to 40 km/h on separate right-of-way depending on station spacing. Example: Calgary LRT system.
Notice the speed difference. I hope this is not accurate.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1579  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2009, 3:58 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 1,957
I see Haydon is getting some press again in the Sun.
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Column...07586-sun.html

I wonder if there is a need to "Hit the reset button" yet again? Are Haydon's claims founded? Are things getting out of hand with the 'planned' LRT system? What will the final cost really be given the current cost escalations (Baseline Station, et al), and lack of project definition? Will the performance of the proposed LRT system be acceptable - cost-wise and speed-wise?

What preferred system would be presented if the Council simply hired a NEW and DIFFERENT consultant to design a new transit system and gave it a mandate to explore ALL reasonable possibilities? (I say new and different consultant because we can not trust the City's Staff or the usual consultants to ignore their past pet projects.)

Yes, I'm just stirring the pot.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1580  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2009, 4:27 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
The best way to do it is to do it slowly over, say, 15 years, while remaining committed to it. Double-tracking the existing O-Train line (with an extension only as far as the Airport) would be a good start, then piece by piece work on the east-west line. An interim BRT in the tunnel might work, as long as all the stations and trackage are fully capable of an easy transition to LRT.

As for those monetary variations, it has to do with ridership more than anything. If all the Transitway ridership (and nothing else) converted to LRT ridership, there would be over 160,000 passengers riding on a typical weekday. That would rank it 3rd among systems in North America.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:12 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.