Differences between SW Ontario vs Eastern Ontario

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by Docere

The big question of course is whether Ernie Eves and Frank Miller count as Northerners.

Is Muskoka the north? As a southerner, I don't want to assume it is, but I usually think it is (for some purposes, definitely). 1overcosc lists Eves as being from Orangeville, but he only ran in Dufferin because the member there was willing to resign to allow Eves to run when Eves won the leadership.

By the way, thanks for all the great trivia, that's neat about how many premiers hailed from Toronto and otherwise.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

Is Muskoka the north? As a southerner, I don't want to assume it is, but I usually think it is (for some purposes, definitely). 1overcosc lists Eves as being from Orangeville, but he only ran in Dufferin because the member there was willing to resign to allow Eves to run when Eves won the leadership.

By the way, thanks for all the great trivia, that's neat about how many premiers hailed from Toronto and otherwise.

Many Torontonians think that "The North" is anything north of Steeles.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Another fascination: of 25 Premiers, 24 were born in Ontario. Robarts was born in Alberta. None were foreign born.

Interesting large contrast with somewhere like BC (just going off Wikipedia), where non-BC born outnumbered BC-born, especially in the past. Lots of foreign born in BC too.

Birthplaces.

Horgan -- Victoria, BC.
Clark -- Burnaby, BC.
Campbell -- Vancouver, BC.
Dosanjh -- India
Miller -- Port Alice, BC.
Clark -- Nanaimo, BC.
Harcourt -- Edmonton, AB.
Johnston -- Melville, SK.
Zalm -- Netherlands
Bennett -- Kelowna, BC.
Barrett -- Vancouver, BC.
Bennett -- Hastings, NB
Johnson -- Victoria, BC.
Hart -- Ireland
Pattullo -- Woodstock, ON.
Tolmie -- Victoria, BC.
MacLean -- Culloden, PEI.
Oliver -- England
Brewster -- Harvey, NB.
Bowser -- Rexton, NB.
McBride -- New Westminster, BC.
Prior -- England
Dunsmuir -- Fort Vancouver (present day Washington state, USA)
Martin -- Milton, ON.
Semlin -- Barrie, ON.
Turner -- England.
Davie -- England.
Robson -- Perth ON.
Davie -- England.
Smithe -- England.
Beaven -- England.
Walkem -- Ireland.
Elliott - Ireland.
De Cosmos -- Windsor, Nova Scotia.
McCreight -- Ireland.

[Docere]

Most of Manitoba's premiers in the 20th century were born in Ontario.

In the 1980s there were two sitting Premiers with a Brampton connection - Bill Davis and Howard Pawley (who was born in Brampton).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Interesting large contrast with somewhere like BC (just going off Wikipedia), where non-BC born outnumbered BC-born, especially in the past. Lots of foreign born in BC too.

Birthplaces.

Horgan -- Victoria, BC.
Clark -- Burnaby, BC.
Campbell -- Vancouver, BC.
Dosanjh -- India
Miller -- Port Alice, BC.
Clark -- Nanaimo, BC.
Harcourt -- Edmonton, AB.
Johnston -- Melville, SK.
Zalm -- Netherlands
Bennett -- Kelowna, BC.
Barrett -- Vancouver, BC.
Bennett -- Hastings, NB
Johnson -- Victoria, BC.
Hart -- Ireland
Pattullo -- Woodstock, ON.
Tolmie -- Victoria, BC.
MacLean -- Culloden, PEI.
Oliver -- England
Brewster -- Harvey, NB.
Bowser -- Rexton, NB.
McBride -- New Westminster, BC.
Prior -- England
Dunsmuir -- Fort Vancouver (present day Washington state, USA)
Martin -- Milton, ON.
Semlin -- Barrie, ON.
Turner -- England.
Davie -- England.
Robson -- Perth ON.
Davie -- England.
Smithe -- England.
Beaven -- England.
Walkem -- Ireland.
Elliott - Ireland.
De Cosmos -- Windsor, Nova Scotia.
McCreight -- Ireland.

None of Quebec's premiers have been born outside the province.

Four of Canada's prime ministers have been born outside Canada - all of them in the UK.

Three in the very early days and John Turner more recently.

Australia has had seven or eight prime ministers born abroad. There is some debate about one of them - whether he was born in New Zealand or Australia.

New Zealand has actually had more prime ministers born in the UK than in NZ itself.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

None of Quebec's premiers have been born outside the province.

Four of Canada's prime ministers have been born outside Canada - all of them in the UK.

Three in the very early days and John Turner more recently.

Australia has had seven or eight prime ministers born abroad. There is some debate about one of them - whether he was born in New Zealand or Australia.

New Zealand has actually had more prime ministers born in the UK than in NZ itself.

The birthplaces of the leaders of a political jurisdiction seem to reflect its settlement history and how "established" the place is -- newly settled Aus, NZ, British Columbia and western Canada are less local-born and more likely to be domestic migrants or immigrants, vs. more "established" eastern Canada with homegrown politicians.

Until recently, didn't British subjects who were not Canadian citizens have the right to vote at least at the provincial level in some provinces?

I hear NZ is one of the few handful of countries in the world that still lets non-citizens who are permanent residents vote. Apparently, NZ is the most liberal in this regard in the world.

"New Zealand is widely recognised as having the most liberal approach to voting rights for noncitizens in the world. One of only four countries to permit noncitizens to vote in national elections it is by far the most inclusive of those four, extending voting rights to permanent residents after only one year’s residence."


https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=2449068

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Most of Manitoba's premiers in the 20th century were born in Ontario.

In the 1980s there were two sitting Premiers with a Brampton connection - Bill Davis and Howard Pawley (who was born in Brampton).

The way many of the GTA's cities, like Brampton, had a "small town Ontario" feel with a distinctive local identity back over a couple generations ago, in contrast to being incorporated into the big sprawling suburb of Toronto it is today seems rather stark.

[Docere]

Could the lower population density of rural Eastern Ontario be a factor in the more libertarian landowners culture?

[Capsicum]

Does rural eastern Ontario have more ranching relative to the population than cropland, compared to SW Ontario? Cattle ranching folks with lots of space might have a more "hands off, government", libertarian attitude to land ownership, than the smaller fruit and vegetable farms, of SW Ontario, which are also closer to the cities they supply the food to.

[Docere]

Southern Ontario is part of the "Dairy Belt" which extends from Quebec, Vermont and Upstate NY to Wisconsin. I don't think the "libertarianism" of Eastern Ontario farmers extends to supply management (how did Bernier do in rural Eastern Ontario in the Conservative leadership race?)

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Until recently, didn't British subjects who were not Canadian citizens have the right to vote at least at the provincial level in some provinces?

Yes, we moved here from the UK in the early 70's and my parents could vote in municipal and provincial elections but not federal. Not sure if that is the case now or not (it does seem archaic when you think about it), but we became citizens when I was about 20. Three weeks later I got a notice in the mail that I had been selected for jury duty which I believe is a privilege only bestowed upon those with Canadian citizenship.

You can still be a joint UK/Canadian citizen.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Proof Sheet

Yes, we moved here from the UK in the early 70's and my parents could vote in municipal and provincial elections but not federal. Not sure if that is the case now or not (it does seem archaic when you think about it), but we became citizens when I was about 20. Three weeks later I got a notice in the mail that I had been selected for jury duty which I believe is a privilege only bestowed upon those with Canadian citizenship.

You can still be a joint UK/Canadian citizen.

British subjects could vote in all Canadian elections until the mid-1970s, afaik. My mother (born in Scotland 1923, arrived in Canada 1924) was a British subject who had no trouble voting. She also applied for, and received, a Canadian passport in the early 1970s, no problem, even though neither she or her parents had ever done anything formally to obtain Canadian citizenship. I think that was because, prior to WWII, any British subject resident in Canada was considered a Canadian citizen.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

British subjects could vote in all Canadian elections until the mid-1970s, afaik. My mother (born in Scotland 1923, arrived in Canada 1924) was a British subject who had no trouble voting. She also applied for, and received, a Canadian passport in the early 1970s, no problem, even though neither she or her parents had ever done anything formally to obtain Canadian citizenship. I think that was because, prior to WWII, any British subject resident in Canada was considered a Canadian citizen.

Prior to 1947, Canadian citizenship didn't exist at all; all Canadians were British subjects, and rights to voting were simply given to "British subjects resident in Canada".

[Docere]

In the 1977 election, 19 of 34 Liberal seats were in SW Ontario. And another 5 in adjacent Hamilton-Niagara.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontari...election,_1977

Prior to 1985, the "left-right" difference between the provincial Liberals and PCs was more ambiguous. The Liberals were sort of a regional party.

[Docere]

While Eastern Ontario doesn't seem to have much of a connection to northern New York State, it does share a few commonalities. A significant military presence (Fort Drum), significant French Canadian and Irish ancestry, and some Canadian Shield cutting through it. Eastern Ontario is pretty thinly populated if the Capital Region is excluded, though not to the same degree as directly across the border.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

British subjects could vote in all Canadian elections until the mid-1970s, afaik. My mother (born in Scotland 1923, arrived in Canada 1924) was a British subject who had no trouble voting. She also applied for, and received, a Canadian passport in the early 1970s, no problem, even though neither she or her parents had ever done anything formally to obtain Canadian citizenship. I think that was because, prior to WWII, any British subject resident in Canada was considered a Canadian citizen.

A little known fact is that Canadian citizens who are residents of the UK are eligible to vote in all British elections.

As such, a relative of mine who was living in the UK at the time of the Brexit vote was eligible to vote, whereas his wife who is a citizen of a continental EU country, was not.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

A little known fact is that Canadian citizens who are residents of the UK are eligible to vote in all British elections.

As such, a relative of mine who was living in the UK at the time of the Brexit vote was eligible to vote, whereas his wife who is a citizen of a continental EU country, was not.

His wife would have been eligible to vote in local elections, as the EU rules require every country to grant the right to vote at the municipal level to all EU citizens. Some countries (including Ireland IIRC, as well as Scotland's regional parliament) voluntarily extend the franchise to all EU citizens, too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

His wife would have been eligible to vote in local elections, as the EU rules require every country to grant the right to vote at the municipal level to all EU citizens. Some countries (including Ireland IIRC, as well as Scotland's regional parliament) voluntarily extend the franchise to all EU citizens, too.

That's why she couldn't vote for or against Brexit. It wasn't a local election.

[ssiguy]

Eastern Ontario has no manufacturing base at all unlike SWO which is why the NDP have never gained traction there. Liberal support has basically been an Ottawa-centered affair with the rest of EO being staunchly Conservative both federally and provincially.

Except for Ottawa, SWO seems to be more progressive than EO in most social and economic issues. Outside of Ottawa and Kingston, EO is basically small towns regional centers serving farming communities where as SWO has far more smaller cities that still have a solid manufacturing base and more urban sensibilities.

[Docere]

True, even areas of SW Ontario thought of as "rural" (such as Oxford County or Chatham-Kent) actually have a significant manufacturing base.