Highrise Condos

[Yroc]

Is the price of a highrise condo reasonable? I say no...

I cannot help but cringe everytime I see a price listing for a high rise condo in Ottawa. I personally think I am not alone and am a part of the reason why there is no huge desire for housing in the core (or for highrises in the burbs for that matter). I also think urban sprawl continues, at least in part, because dense housing is terribly expensive when the reverse should be true.

The problem I have is that most condo offerings are "apartment" like instead of "home" like because they are too small. In addition, prices seem unreasonable for what is being offered. For example, 570 square feet at the corner of Bank and Rideau for $200,000?

Personally, I would not consider living in a condo that is under ~ 1,200 square feet and suspect upward of 2,000 square feet would be needed to meet my needs at the higher end (especially in an apartment that offers a locker instead of a full basement). I cannot imagine how someone with 2-3 kids would get by with less.

When I see condos in the 2,000 + square foot range, the price is usually crazy i.e. Riverside Gate (which is georgeous) but offers 1,550 square feet, not facing the river, for a whopping $420,000 (before a single upgrade). I cannot justify these prices given that I can buy a townhome with the same amount of space closer to the city core for $220,000 and spare myself the huge $500.00 / month condo fee and $500.00 / month in property taxes.

It seems to me that the market supports urban sprawl in that reasonable homes for a reasonable prices are not offered in high rise living. Does anyone have a different take on this?

In my opinion, no matter what way I slice it, I find that if I want good prices for housing, I only find that in single or two storey dwellings whereas condos in these categories offer better value than a freehold does.

Another example that comes to mind is 90 George for $432,000 including 2 bedrooms and one bath .... and 921 square feet? Right off the top for me, "a Luxury Condo" could not possibly include only one bath. Is this good value?

There must be a reason ... If we look at the design, it does not make good sense that a building with a foot print that is ~ 1/10th the size as a single home results in such high prices.

If more reasonable prices were available, I think dense housing would be more mainstream than it is now. This would support green visions which seem to becoming more important.

My ramblings...... anyone have any thoughts on this topic?

[the capital urbanite]

What you're asking for is subsidized housing...real estate market principles dictate that the more desirable location (i.e. closer to services) will garner the higher price. You can't change basic economics without implementing price controls.

prices will be what the market can support....right now their are plenty of buyers who want condo living...so prices are reasonable given the market....Ottawa is still pretty damn cheap compared to most major centres in North America.

If you have 3 kids and like to have lots of space then a condo downtown is certainly not for you (unless you are in one of the upper tax brackets).

...people are different...some need 2000 sq. feet and a huge lot to feel comfortable, some people have more than enough space in a 500sq foot condo.

[AuxTown]

Every type of dwelling has its niche. The sub-1000 foot condos in centretown, the market, the glebe, and Westboro are ideal for young singles and couples and empty-nesters. They are very expensive ($200000+) but you can't argue with the local amenities and neighbourhood vibes. More and more we are going to see the suburbs as a place to raise a family, but as comute times and gas prices soar, the central areas are going to look more and more inviting to anyone who can pull it off. I currently live in a 1000 sq. foot apartment on Riverside Dr. that I find to be very spacious and comfortable, but I don't think I need all of this space. My new condo will be just shy of 700 square feet, but when you take into account the 9ft. ceilings and large windows, I imagine it won't feel cramped at all. Don't get me wrong, as soon as kids are in the picture, I imagine I will be scurrying out to the suburbs just like the rest of them.

[adam-machiavelli]

There's also resale condos to consider.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Yroc

...

I agree with your sentiment on condo prices, depending on what inventory you're referring to. The 'new' stuff (i.e., the stuff built within the last 5-7 years) is absurdly over-priced. There are great deals to be had on older units though. For instance, a friend of mine paid ~190k for an older, 1050 square foot 2-bedroom condo (parking included). In terms of the newer stuff, $200k buys you 1-bedroom, 550-600 square feet, and no parking ... if you're lucky.

However condo sales are hardly struggling, as is evidenced by this article.

http://www.ottawabusinessjournal.com...1943756991.php

This obviously means either people don't share our opinion, or they do but are buying condos anyway because it's the trendy thing to do right now.

[rodionx]

With the new condos, it seems that a not insignificant part of the price has to do with a perception of status. Look how 90 George has set itself up as a desirable address. How different can a 900 square foot apartment at 90 George really be from a 900 square foot apartment in the Claridge building down the street? It's going to be nicer, sure, but the price difference makes it sound like it should be in a completely different part of town.

As for what constitutes an acceptable amount of living space, that's also a matter of perception, as others have indicated. Me, I'm living with my wife and one crawling baby (and 10 zillion toys) in an 850 square foot house that was build in the twenties. We don't find it cramped at all. When I lived in Russia, this place would have been considered a suitable home for mom, dad, two kids, grandma, and Uncle Pasha when he's in town.

There are probably lots more people in North America who consider 2000 square feet necessary for a family, as compared to those who can do it in under 1000, which is why suburbs aren't going to die out any time soon. Still, it's more about perception than anything.

[cityguy]

Condo living is not a bargain per square foot ,it's a lifestyle your paying for.

[Mille Sabords]

Yroc raises a good point, though. The reason sprawl continues is that North American cities keep subsidising it with infrastructure paid out of everyone's taxes (roads, sewers, water, transit, fire, police, community centres, libraries, and on and on). It's a well known fact that residential development on greenfields doesn't come close to recovering costs for municipalities, the way things are now.

Urban boundaries have the effect of increasing land prices, which the home-building community decries as unfair for affordable housing but which, in the end, should lead to a more efficient use of land if cities stick to their guns.

In many other cities (including Toronto, Vancouver and probably Calgary now too), a single-detached home is out of reach for most first-time buyers. From a municipal standpoint, that's good news. Once people have formed a lifestyle around car travel and long commutes, those habits die hard. Getting a family of 5 to leave the burbs and move to an urban neighbourhood is like getting a lifelong 3-pack-a-day smoker to quit. Gasoline really is the nicotine of cities.

If you get used to living with a back yard and grass all around and jumping in the car for a litre of milk, after a while you don't think about it anymore, it becomes part of your life and you carry on as if you're on auto-pilot. With kids it's even harder to change. If you live in an urban neighbourhood with no back yard but a park (filled with other kids) two blocks away, grocery stores and pharmacies and other stores within 5 blocks, and you can walk to work, then you get used to having all the extra time to spend with your kids instead of in traffic.

Our first baby was born when we lived in a 2-bedroom condo and we weren't the only ones with kids in our building, we knew of 3 other condos that were young couples with a small child too.

So, is the price of a condo too high? Well, if the right stars align and you pay more for your condo but don't need a car, it's a wash financially and you're better off in terms of having more leisure time. It's a choice.

[Kitchissippi]

One of the main reasons for the price difference is the calibre of construction. It is far, far more expensive to build a concrete and steel structure than a wood frame house. Finding undeveloped land to plunk a house with a relatively short lifespan is cheaper than engineering something that's supposed to last over a century.

Even within condo developments, $50 a sqft is easily eaten up by better quality finishes alone like flooring, cabinets and fixtures. that's 50k extra for a 1000 sqft

[azz]

I was trying to have a discusion with a friend the other day about condo builings and their hieghts. We were trying to determine what it would cost, on average, for an additional storey. Land is the fixed costs with the building being variable so I figured it would probably cost the developer (?) to add an extra storey....height restrcitions aside.

Any hints?

[WhipperSnapper]

Land is the fixed costs

Far from... A property approved for 15 storey will cost significantly more to buy than if the same one was approved for 5 storeys. Likewise, the larger the development, the larger the re-zoning/development fees

[azz]

Originally Posted by goodlookin'

Far from... A property approved for 15 storey will cost significantly more to buy than if the same one was approved for 5 storeys. Likewise, the larger the development, the larger the re-zoning/development fees

But what if the developer already owns the land prior to brewing up plans?

....either way, my conversation with my friend was stuck on how much an extra storey costs...fixed costs for land or not.

[m0nkyman]

There is no hard and fast rule. There are too many factors, such as parking requirements, structural load bearing requirements, Mechanical systems such as HVAC and elevators, etc.

There are times when the marginal cost of building another floor are minimal, and others when an extra floor up would require excavating another floor down to meet underground parking requirements, an upgrade to the mechanical systems of the building (or an entire second set of mechanicals), or with really tall buildings, the elevators would need to be rearranged for a transfer floor due to pressure differentials.

[Yroc]

Condo living is not a bargain per square foot

This statement is not exactly true. Low rise condos provide all the lifestyle without the high price tag.

Problem is.. from an environmental point of view I would prefer live in more dense housing. I am just not yet willing to pay extra for that (and I doubt I ever will).

The sprawl shall likely continue until the tide turns and dense housing becomes more affordable than non dense housing.

[clynnog]

Originally Posted by goodlookin'

Likewise, the larger the development, the larger the re-zoning/development fees

In the City of Ottawa rezoning fees are not based on the size of the property or the size of the proposed buliding(s)...they have a major and minor application, but most of what we discuss on this forum is a 'major' application and it has 1 fixed fee. On top of that are engineering/infrastructure fees but there are only 3 categories for that.

Development charges are based on a per ft2/m2 basis for commercial,industrial etc. DC's are calculated by the unit for SFR's/TH's/Ap't units.

[c_speed3108]

While I agree that we don't want price controlled units..at least not directly anyway, the trouble that comes particularly for younger buyers is they end up getting driven to the suburbs and in the case of some of my friends even beyond, just because their money goes further out there.

I think I recall Brad Lamb (the guy who sold East Market and the Mondrian) saying one time that high rise condos cost around $150-some per square foot to build...on average. They can sell new for prices in the high 200's to the low 300's

Granted the is not New York City's $1000/sq foot (much more in prime locations) but it is still a lot for many people.

To me it would be really nice to see some developers deliver some more average condos (like the kind built in the 70's) where things are more basic (8 foot ceilings for instance...lose the granite...keep the bathrooms plainer and actually deliver some more square footage. Finishes can always be upgrade latter on in the second life cycle of the building. Everything, even the cheapest finishes looks good new anyway.

The problem is that the average rental is MUCH bigger than those 500 sq.foot pieces of junk called entry level condos.

The trouble when stuff gets too expensive is it leads to bigger and bigger suburbs with bigger and bigger highways connecting them.

As for people with families, I think some of the downtown problems homeless, crack etc.. will have to be dealt with before many (not all, obviously) people care to flock there.

It is not all bad. There are certainly many older used condos (renovated to new condition) in this city with a number of advantages

-price is much lower

-indoor parking without having to pay 20k

-more space (tend to be much larger)

-better building facilities including indoor pools

-new condos are often advertised with condo fees WAY to low to get people to buy (without them getting scared away at the fees). The builder has to cover the difference the first year. After that owners are stuck with typically a 30-40% fee hike in most buildings. This does not generally happen in used once since the budget is stable and predicable.

-you can move in much sooner since the building is already ready.

My 2 cents on the Ottawa condo market.

[Skyway]

Ottawa should order one of these

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/me...wer/index.html

[Aylmer]

Pure skyscraper porn.

[Davis137]

I don't think I would get a Condo unless I were Single, or made a ridiculous amount of money. I also don't think that I'd live in the outskirts of the Burbs, as the gridlocked traffic every single day would drive me insane (and there would also be the need for the misses and I to have our own separate vehicles too).

I'll look for a single detached house in Hintonburg or Westborough if I'm being posted here for longer than a couple of years...