HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > General


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2011, 4:38 AM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 1,450
West End Mall discussion

Raise your hands if you remember the thread I managed to derail over a year ago...
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=175019
It was a WWII picture thread, and I took it in the direction of a West End Mall discussion. Well I'm starting another Sears/Simpsons/West End Mall discussion, and if you don't like it then don't read it

With the recent news that HBC is closing The Bay store at WEM, I got back to thinking about all of this again.

Basically the approximate timeline we hashed out in that other thread was that the original Simpsons store opened off of Chebucto Road. Sometime in the 1960s, Halifax Shopping Centre opened up across Mumford Road with Eaton's as its' anchor tenant. Sometime possibly in the 60s a new Sears store opened up behind the Simpsons store, facing Mumford Road. It was believed that around this time the West End Mall was constructed. In the early 1980s (thanks to Keith) Simpsons moved from their now ancient original store to a new building adjacent to Chebucto Road. Shortly after, Hudsons Bay Company bought out Simpsons, and the new store was transoformed into The Bay which we know today. In 1999, Eaton's went bankrupt and their store at HSC closed. Sometime after, Sears moved from their WEM location to the old Eatons location at HSC, Sobeys moved from HSC to their new digs on the former Sears site at WEM, and a Wal-Mart moved in below it.

Cool, right?


Well tonight I was digging through old photos on the NSARM site, and came across this:
http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/n...nguage=english

Yep, it's the old Sears building at WEM (where the Sobeys/Wal-Mart are today), displaying the Simpsons logo. And my mind exploded. Here I thought we had figured this convoluted history all out.
So I did a bit more digging, and got a few actual dates and some much needed clarification on the Simpsons and Sears partnership...so here I go

In 1952, Simpson's partnered with US-based Sears, whose Canadian based operation was known as Simpsons-Sears. Confusing name I know, because Simpsons and Simpsons-Sears were treated as separate companies. In 1978, Simpsons was purchased by the Hudsons Bay Company, and Simpsons-Sears became known as Sears Canada, which we know today. Part of the original 1952 partnership agreement said that no Simpsons-Sears store could be built within 25 miles of an existing Simpsons store. This restriction was ended in 1972.
So there's no way that, prior to 1972, a Sears and Simpsons store could have possibly co-existed at WEM.
Unfortunately there's no date on that NSARM photo, however based on the markings on that bus parked in front of the store, the picture was taken sometime between 1963 (when the Nova Scotia Light and Power Company purchased its' first diesel buses) and 1970, when NSL&P ceased transit operations.

So, obviously this building in the photo, where the Wal-Mart and Sobeys are today, started its' life as an expansion of the older Simpson's building behind it. They probably operated out of both buildings at the same time too, as we know they were linked together with escalators, and the photo title on the website says "New Simpsons Addition, Halifax." Also note in the picture that the WEM itself doesn't exist yet.

In 1978, HBC purchased Simpsons, and a couple of years later built a new Simpsons store adjacent to Chebucto Road with a large parkade under it. In the mid-80s HBC renamed this Simpsons store to The Bay, as it is today. When Simpsons vacated their old buildings (the one where the Sobeys is today as well as the original building behind it) in the early 80s, they would have been taken over by Sears, with Sears using the Mumford-fronting building as the main store, and the old building behind as the clearance centre/bargain basement. I assume around this time the WEM was constructed to link the two department stores together.

Now, since I was not alive in the 60s or 70s, perhaps somebody here has a memory that does go back to those days, and can let me know what they think of this theory...
And yes I realize having an interest like this in department stores is bizarre.

Last edited by hfx_chris; Feb 8, 2011 at 4:43 AM. Reason: s
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2011, 7:18 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 3,883
This was one of my favorite malls when I was a kid - I don't know why, just was. Now, I think it's just time to take the whole thing down and start again.
Honestly, I'd like to see them take it all down. I have no problem with big box retail going back up - but I want to see residential go up above it or offices. It's perfectly located plus I'd like to see them put the parking underground.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 12:33 AM
reddog794's Avatar
reddog794 reddog794 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 198
I stand by the idea of using the area for a stadium. Plenty of parking, and amenities galour, and easier for the bulk of where the population would come from to travel to.
__________________
We may smile at these matters, but they are melancholy illustrations. - Joe Howe

go dogs go!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 12:49 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 3,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog794 View Post
I stand by the idea of using the area for a stadium. Plenty of parking, and amenities galour, and easier for the bulk of where the population would come from to travel to.
Is the site big enough or would it require the strip mall plaza next to it too? Certainly if regional rail were create it would work well for connecting to it. Plus with the growth of Bedford and Clayton Park - coming in through the Bi hi would be workable.

Just wouldn't be terribly good for anyone on the Dartmouth side - since it would be further to travel I would think.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 12:51 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto area (ex-Nova Scotian)
Posts: 5,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog794 View Post
I stand by the idea of using the area for a stadium. Plenty of parking, and amenities galour, and easier for the bulk of where the population would come from to travel to.
I think this would be an excellent location for a stadium. It is also close to 3 universities (SMU, Dalhousie and Mount Saint Vincent). The question is whether there are at least 10 acres available for a stadium itself plus some dedicated parking. It would be great if the dedicated parking could also be used for a Park and Ride site.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 2:28 AM
Keith P.'s Avatar
Keith P. Keith P. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,014
That's a cool picture Chris found. I was born in the mid-50s and vaguely remember some of the details of being brought there as a kid, so let me fill in what I can from memory.

Sears had no standalone retail stores in Halifax-Dartmouth until the early/mid-80s. The Dartmouth Penhorn store opened in '82, and according to the Sears website "The end of the 25-mile agreement some years earlier paved the way for Sears to open a store in Halifax. Ironically, the new Sears store opened in the former Simpsons location." That occurred in '84. Prior to that time, Sears products were available by ordering them from the Sears catalog. I don't think that Sears brands such as Kenmore were available in a normal retail setting in Halifax at Simpsons-Sears, though I stand to be corrected on that. I believe that you could look at floor models in the catalog shopping center and buy returned units in the clearance center (more on that later). My memory is that S-S had their own unique house brand, but I can't remember the name. Later on, after the split in the mid-80s, the Bay developed their own Beaumark house brand of appliances. The history of Simpons, Simpsons-Sears, Sears, and the Bay is very convoluted, as a Wiki search will reveal.

In Halifax, the original Simpsons store opened on Chebucto Lane sometime around 1930. It was in the suburbs at the time, but was serviced by tramcar and later by NSL&P trolleys. There was a circle to allow the trolleys to reverse course in front of the main entrance, which was nicely landscaped and had the feel of a small park/garden. This is roughly where a loading dock now is situated. I recall being in the Simpsons store not long before they relocated to the new structure that currently houses The Bay and the area immediately inside those doors was the mens wear department, with much old wood millwork and polished trim - very old-school in design. Towards the center of that floor was a candy/baked goods dept which I loved as a kid, with bulk candy displayed in glassed-in showcases that a clerk would scoop out and sell by weight in little white paper sacks with blue Simpsons logos on them. I believe ladies wear was at the opposite end of that floor, but I may be wrong on that point. I never paid much attention to that when I was a kid.

In the 1960s the new structure pictured was built behind the old store and attached to it. This was always very confusing to me because there were escalators that took you upstairs from the old store to the new, which was still Simpsons, but there were also elevators - at least 2 different sets - that took you upstairs as well, and depending upon which one you took, you could either go to the new retail sales floors in the new building, or to the clearance center/catalog shopping center, which was Simpsons-Sears, not Simpsons. This remained, as near as I can recall, in the old original building.

(NOTE: I actually have 2 conflicting memories on this point. One is that the elevators took you directly to the catalog sales area. The other is that an elevator took you to a level where you exited into a display area of appliances and home improvement goods, which was adjacent to a restaurant - the Arcadian Room, I believe, a Simpsons name - and you continued past it down a long corridor before arriving at the catalog center. Perhaps this was the result of renovations during that time).

The new Simpsons building contained a floor that had a large record, music and TV dept, furniture, appliances, cosmetics, and god-knows what else. I seem to recall one area being designated as "The Room", with upscale women's fashions. But my memory of it is fuzzier than that of the old main floor for some reason. When it first opened it was standalone as the West End Mall had not yet been built. At the far end (towards where Sobeys is now) were administrative offices, which had their own exterior entrance. I recall that the entrance from outside on that level was also rather nice, with a good-sized airlock lobby with expensive-looking double glass doors. This was a popular spot to wait for your bus. The exterior on that level had a neat design that you can see in the picture, with a white quartz pebble-finished precast the entire length of the building. It's a shame that went away - it was cool mid-century architecture.

The catalog and clearance floor in the original building was very different, an industrial sort of setting with few amenities or architectural features. You got off the elevator (or exited the corridor, whatever memory is accurate) and were near a catalog order area, where you would be served at a large counter by clerks who would fill out order forms for items selected from the catalog. These were sent to the order pickers using a pneumatic tube system, whose noise and drama impressed me very much as a kid. In the mid-1960s there was a soda machine there which I always pestered my parents to let me use since it was so cool. It was the type that took your money, dropped a paper cup into a recptacle behind a transparent door, which then filled with the flavor of soda you selected using pushbuttons. I always got an orange soda that was very fizzy and not very good, as I recall. The things you remember...

There was (I think) a 30 or 60-minute order turnaround time where the in-stock items you ordered would be brought down from the warehouse areas and placed in large pigeonholed shelving units behind long counters that ran the length of a large gallery area. Large items too big for shelving had a separate area. These shelves were coded by letter and number which the clerk taking your order would write on your claim check which was given to you when taking your order, along with the time you could pick up the items. I remember these were preprinted with the word "RUSH" in big red letters along with the sentence "Customer waiting in catalog center" or something close to that. At the appointed time you would present yourself at the appropriate spot and give another clerk your claim check, and your merchandise would be taken from the shelves and given to you for inspection and either purchase or rejection. Sometimes the exact item was not in stock and they would substitute something in a different color or style, which always made for a bit of an adventure and sometimes, interesting discussions.

At the end of this gallery area was what my parents called the bargain center. This was a popular destination to visit while waiting for your catalog order to be sent down. This area held items that were returned for credit, were slightly damaged or otherwise imperfect, or (allegedly, according to someone I knew who worked there) were ordered but not purchased. According to this person it was possible to get items at huge discounts if you knew how to work the system of ordering and returns. I do recall that some items seemed very cheap compared to the prices in the catalog. This was not all that different from the current-day clearance center except my memory of it was that it was smaller, darker, and much more confused in how it was merchandised.

Simpsons (as opposed to Simpsons-Sears) was a somewhat upscale, traditional department store in those days. It carried prestige brands and was aimed at a customer slightly more upmarket than what The Bay tries to capture today. Simpsons-Sears was really a separate company that shared facilities here with Simpsons but carried its own line of merchandise that was available here via catalog order (I understand in other markets they had their own retail stores which offered those S-S products in a regular retail setting), and which was more or less similar to what Sears still offers today. It competed back then with the Eatons catalog in that style of retail.

There's my memory dump of that site's history.

Last edited by Keith P.; Feb 9, 2011 at 11:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 3:24 AM
reddog794's Avatar
reddog794 reddog794 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 198
Fenwick, please don take this the wrong way but, no the site is not close enough to the universities to warrant any of their interest.

Both DAL and SMU have their respective sports fields and long term plans for each. MSVU has predominantly arena base teams and soccer but not a big enough endowment to take on a football team of varsity level to warrant investing with the city on a new stadium.

Sizewise, there is enough room, even more so than the prefered young st site.

The journey from Dartmouth would be a bit of a task, but no more so than those traveling from spryfield and timberlea to DC.
__________________
We may smile at these matters, but they are melancholy illustrations. - Joe Howe

go dogs go!

Last edited by reddog794; Feb 9, 2011 at 3:34 AM. Reason: Damn auto-type
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 4:07 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 3,883
SDM - I recall the elevators you are talking about to the bargin centre. They were the old style that had the brass buttons and the numbers with roman numerals and the old style wooden panels inside the car. I loved those elevators because they were old and would clang. My mom hated them.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 7:18 AM
Grav's Avatar
Grav Grav is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 52
Some very interesting trips down memory lane! I love reading and hearing surreal child hood memories of retail in the 60's and 70's. Malls and department stores were so much classier and interesting back then. What buildings are newer and what ones were added on? I always thought the Super store and Walmart buildings were built onto the complex in the late 90's while winners which was formally sears was already there. Where was the building in that old picture located?

Ive always been interested in the West End Malls history. I was only there once prior to the 90's renovations, when sears was still where winners is now, and there were all sorts of nooks and crannies and escalators that dont exist anymore leading to the lower levels of the sears bargain basement. I have asked around about it alot and ive only gotten vague memories of what it once was. I've heard stories of dinosaur displays and other attractions in its earlier days.

What was the mall decor like? where their planters with trees? artwork or a fountain? terrazzo floors and wood paneling? The mall is pretty bland now. And the recent modern renovations are no doubt inferior to whatever it once was. The Bay has fared much better retaining alot of its retro charm and class. I will sometimes walk through there just to get a feeling of nostalgia having spent my early child hood in a city full of circa 60's, 70's Malls and department stores.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 10:29 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto area (ex-Nova Scotian)
Posts: 5,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddog794 View Post
Fenwick, please don take this the wrong way but, no the site is not close enough to the universities to warrant any of their interest.

Both DAL and SMU have their respective sports fields and long term plans for each. MSVU has predominantly arena base teams and soccer but not a big enough endowment to take on a football team of varsity level to warrant investing with the city on a new stadium.
I am not saying that SMU will switch all their games to a stadium at The West Mall. But for such events as the Vanier Cup it seems like a good location which is relatively close to SMU (which would be the host university whether they are in the game or not). They tried for the 2009, 2010 and 2011 Vanier Cups but didn't manage to get even one (http://www.smu.ca/newsreleases/2008/12-02-2008.html). It should be noted that Halifax has never hosted the Vanier Cup - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanier_Cup .

What are the long term plans for the Wickwire Field at Dalhousie Field? There is hardly room for a regulation football field so will they add stands to an already cramped field? Here is the Google link - http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=h...04128&t=h&z=19 . In this case, I can't agree with your comment that The West Mall is not close enough to be of interest. When I look at the map, The West Mall is only 2 km from Dalhousie University (about a 20 minute walk).

In any case, The West Mall might not actually have sufficient space without tearing down some buildings. But in my opinion, it is a good central location for a stadium. However, this is likely just a hypothetical discussion regarding a stadium at the West Mall since I don't think it could be done in a short time period.

Is this off the topic of this thread? It is regarding the West Mall.

Last edited by fenwick16; Feb 9, 2011 at 10:51 AM. Reason: shortened my post.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 8:55 PM
reddog794's Avatar
reddog794 reddog794 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 198
I think we are walking the line.

After having a more concentrated look there would need to be some incorporation of the mall into the stadium design to shoe-horn it in.

If not a stadium, then it could make a strong nuculus of an Uptown going all the way to quinpool, if some med-high density residential is developed there.

It is well positioned to be a transit hub for west HRM.
__________________
We may smile at these matters, but they are melancholy illustrations. - Joe Howe

go dogs go!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 9:10 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
we built this city
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,801
Is there still all of that underground parking underneath the Bay? If so, couldn't it be used for park and ride or some other system?

I would love to see 15/16 floors above the exisiting buildings as residential.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 10:57 PM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 1,450
Keith, you're awesome. Thanks for that information! It reminded me of one thing I read in the Sears Canada Wikipedia article, that one reason Simpsons wanted to partner with Sears (US) in Canada was for their catalogue order system to compete with Eatons catalogues. So basically it seems to me that Simpsons-Sears got around that 25-mile restriction, because their operations in the old Simpsons building was that of a catalogue centre and warehouse, and not so much a department store.
Do you by any chance remember approximately when the mall itself was constructed? Maybe around the time that the current Bay store was constructed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grav View Post
Where was the building in that old picture located?
...
The Bay has fared much better retaining alot of its retro charm and class. I will sometimes walk through there just to get a feeling of nostalgia having spent my early child hood in a city full of circa 60's, 70's Malls and department stores.
The newer Simpsons building in the picture (later the Sears store) was right on the spot where Winners and Sobeys/Wal-Mart are today. As far as I can recall it was pretty much completely torn down, or at least down to the frame.
Speaking of The Bay, I need to pay that store a few more visits before it's closed. I never buy anything there, but I do like to wander around in there becase as you say it has a lot of character and charm. I've also spent a bit of time exploring their parking garages too...because I also have a thing for parking garages...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2011, 12:50 AM
Keith P.'s Avatar
Keith P. Keith P. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grav View Post
Ive always been interested in the West End Malls history. I was only there once prior to the 90's renovations, when sears was still where winners is now, and there were all sorts of nooks and crannies and escalators that dont exist anymore leading to the lower levels of the sears bargain basement. I have asked around about it alot and ive only gotten vague memories of what it once was. I've heard stories of dinosaur displays and other attractions in its earlier days.

What was the mall decor like? where their planters with trees? artwork or a fountain? terrazzo floors and wood paneling? The mall is pretty bland now. And the recent modern renovations are no doubt inferior to whatever it once was. The Bay has fared much better retaining alot of its retro charm and class. I will sometimes walk through there just to get a feeling of nostalgia having spent my early child hood in a city full of circa 60's, 70's Malls and department stores.
I don't exactly recall when West End Mall was built, but I believe it was mid-70s. The mall was never particularly great - it had a lot of the same chain stores the other malls had, i.e. Tip Top Tailors, Fairweather, etc; nothing all that unique. The area that was until recently Access Nova Scotia was originally a Sobeys store, but it was small even for the time.

The decor wasn't anything special as I recall. No fountains or anything like that. I remember a couple of planters and brass trim, typical 70s.

One thing that I just remembered was that there was an upstairs level that had a couple of hairstyling shops that you could access either by stairs or an elevator.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2011, 12:58 AM
cormiermax's Avatar
cormiermax cormiermax is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Beijing
Posts: 884
Here's a shot of the mall pre-renovations.


(http://www.bridgestudio.org/Static/W...t_End_Mall.JPG)

I'v also got a few memory's of the mall from the mid-late 90's. I remember there being an A&W in the food court, as well as some sort of Asian restaurant, but even back then with a decent food court it was pretty dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2011, 1:56 AM
DigitalNinja DigitalNinja is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 964
Well the rest of the mall ain't going anywhere, there are a lot of professional places moving in and there are renovations being done to the exterior.

There is a lot of parking there though, since the Halifax shopping center owns that mall and land as well I think we may see more strip type malls like the Halifax Shopping Center Annex.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2011, 2:58 AM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Dartmouth, NS
Posts: 1,450
Quote:
Originally Posted by cormiermax View Post
I'v also got a few memory's of the mall from the mid-late 90's. I remember there being an A&W in the food court, as well as some sort of Asian restaurant, but even back then with a decent food court it was pretty dead.
Probably a Manchu Wok. It seems every food court seems to have both an A&W and a Manchu Wok.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2011, 3:56 AM
cormiermax's Avatar
cormiermax cormiermax is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Beijing
Posts: 884
Is the food court still there? Last I saw there was only one restaurant left.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2011, 12:48 PM
Keith P.'s Avatar
Keith P. Keith P. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,014
I'm not sure there is a mall there at all any more. I drove by last night and saw that the entrance that used to be down by the Sears/Winners store now appears to be a private space, while the other end down by the former Access NS is under construction but bears a big Capital Health sign. There were no signs at all on the exterior for any commercial operations, it was all professional centers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2011, 1:18 PM
kph06's Avatar
kph06 kph06 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by cormiermax View Post
Is the food court still there? Last I saw there was only one restaurant left.
Last time I was there I think there was just a Tim Horton's but I suspect thats closed now. I forget what malls had them, but I loved MMMMuffins as a kid. I forget what one it was, but there was one muffin I use to always get that was so good. I thought there was one in West End Mall?
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > General
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:51 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.