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  #1  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 2:46 PM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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Mobility Pricing

“Mobility pricing is a key pillar of the Mayors’ Council’s 10-Year Vision that could fix Metro Vancouver’s unfair user pricing regime, significantly reduce congestion, and deliver fair and stable funding for our transit and transportation network,” said Gregor Robertson, Mayor of Vancouver and chair, Mayors’ Council on Regional Transportation, in a release.

"During the election campaign, the Green Party came out in favour of the model to help cut traffic congestion and the NDP stated it would work with mayors to build a framework for a transportation plan, including mobility pricing."

Hold it a sec.... didn't the NDP campaign on No More Tolls? Maybe they are going to go with a vehicle levy instead. Any referendum on this would fail miserably like before. Stay tuned.....
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  #2  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 5:32 PM
Aroundtheworld Aroundtheworld is offline
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I did my thesis on what a fair and efficient mobility pricing system would look like. It has the following basic tenets:
  1. Existing tolls and taxes that pay for roads are eliminated. Property taxes that pay for roads would be eliminated.
  2. A Mobility Pricing charges vary by vehicle class, time, day and location of travel. This is done to eliminate recurrent congestion.
  3. Mobility Pricing Charges accurately reflect the cost vehicles impose on road infrastructure, health and the environment.

You can check out the presentation here

The big conclusions I found were:
  • Mobility Pricing would benefit all users (drivers, transit users, pedestrians, cyclists), but only if it is designed to reduce congestion.
  • Both urban and suburban areas benefit.
  • When congestion benefits are factored in, business and industry benefit as well.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 6:40 PM
Pinion Pinion is offline
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Originally Posted by Trainguy View Post
Any referendum on this would fail miserably like before. Stay tuned.....
The BC Liberals only did referendums when they wanted things to fail and didn't want to be blamed for it. It's not necessary.

Road pricing is definitely more fair than bridge tolls, but income should come from other means.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 7:21 PM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
Road pricing is definitely more fair than bridge tolls, but income should come from other means.
The carbon tax is proof that a government can successfully impose new fees with little controversy - by ensuring that the effort is revenue neutral. Now there's some discussion about just how revenue neutral the carbon tax really is, but its implementation shows that the public is willing to accept a different way of taxation as long as they believe that it isn't just a big cash grab by the government.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Trainguy View Post
“Mobility pricing is a key pillar of the Mayors’ Council’s 10-Year Vision that could fix Metro Vancouver’s unfair user pricing regime, significantly reduce congestion, and deliver fair and stable funding for our transit and transportation network,” said Gregor Robertson, Mayor of Vancouver and chair, Mayors’ Council on Regional Transportation, in a release.

"During the election campaign, the Green Party came out in favour of the model to help cut traffic congestion and the NDP stated it would work with mayors to build a framework for a transportation plan, including mobility pricing."

Hold it a sec.... didn't the NDP campaign on No More Tolls? Maybe they are going to go with a vehicle levy instead. Any referendum on this would fail miserably like before. Stay tuned.....
Mobility pricing is to tolls like a scalpel is to a chainsaw. Mobility pricing, as Aroundtheworld said, is more fine-tuned to directly address congestion in different areas instead of just a blanket toll at certain locations.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 9:21 PM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Originally Posted by CanSpice View Post
Mobility pricing is to tolls like a scalpel is to a chainsaw. Mobility pricing, as Aroundtheworld said, is more fine-tuned to directly address congestion in different areas instead of just a blanket toll at certain locations.
Naming is everything in a political battle, and "Mobility pricing" really doesn't cut it, IMHO. If the politicians were smart, they'd emphasize the benefits, low cost and sensible nature of a congestion pricing scheme by calling it something like "SpeedCents".

You heard it here first, folks!
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  #7  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 10:36 PM
WBC WBC is offline
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Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld View Post
I did my thesis on what a fair and efficient mobility pricing system would look like. It has the following basic tenets:
  1. Existing tolls and taxes that pay for roads are eliminated. Property taxes that pay for roads would be eliminated.
I would be very, very surprised if that happens. In all likelihood all this is going to amount to is some sort of additional charge or levy on existing infrastructure. Then come next provincial election the opposition (whoever that is) will promise to free us from evil road pricing charges and out of control mayors - see photo radar...see tolling on Port Man...Then they will win the said election...rinse and repeat...
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  #8  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2017, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
Naming is everything in a political battle, and "Mobility pricing" really doesn't cut it, IMHO. If the politicians were smart, they'd emphasize the benefits, low cost and sensible nature of a congestion pricing scheme by calling it something like "SpeedCents".

You heard it here first, folks!
Cents are not going to do it...Are you really going to be bothered by 50c charge for driving downtown? $5 maybe...$10 for sure...
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  #9  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 1:21 AM
dharper dharper is offline
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They say mobility pricing is to be more 'fair'. In theory it can be, if it is implemented properly. But why do I have the feeling that it will be applied in a lazy, unfair way. I live in Surrey and drive 15000km a year, with the vast majority of them East, outside of the Metro area. If they get lazy and use an odometer reading, and assume that I live in Surrey and drive to Downtown Vancouver everyday, then it will most certainly be unfair. But if they have someway of recording where I drive (in the Metro area), then it would be fair.
But like I said, they will probably get lazy, or should I say cheap, and assume that the majority of my driving is in the Metro area, instead of having some way to record it.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 1:57 AM
cornholio cornholio is offline
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This infringes on privacy rights on so many levels. I don't know why it is even being discussed. Do people really think this is viable or even smart? Lets not ignore the fact that just running this system would cost hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

Ridiculous idea and shows a great deal of incompetence to even put this up for debate imo.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 3:14 AM
Pinion Pinion is offline
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Originally Posted by dharper View Post
They say mobility pricing is to be more 'fair'. In theory it can be, if it is implemented properly. But why do I have the feeling that it will be applied in a lazy, unfair way. I live in Surrey and drive 15000km a year, with the vast majority of them East, outside of the Metro area. If they get lazy and use an odometer reading, and assume that I live in Surrey and drive to Downtown Vancouver everyday, then it will most certainly be unfair. But if they have someway of recording where I drive (in the Metro area), then it would be fair.
But like I said, they will probably get lazy, or should I say cheap, and assume that the majority of my driving is in the Metro area, instead of having some way to record it.
How is it unfair that people drive more pay more? That's the definition of fair.

I paid a premium to do the right thing and live geographically close to downtown/work and the BC liberals fucked me over by focusing only on infrastructure in the eastern valley. Now my commute is as long as someone who lives in Surrey despite being 10 times closer.
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  #12  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 3:14 AM
Aroundtheworld Aroundtheworld is offline
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
This infringes on privacy rights on so many levels. I don't know why it is even being discussed. Do people really think this is viable or even smart? Lets not ignore the fact that just running this system would cost hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

Ridiculous idea and shows a great deal of incompetence to even put this up for debate imo.
I agree that privacy is very important, but I think it would be foolish to outright reject the idea because there are some concerns. I worked for a startup years ago that developed the technology for this and I can tell you there are many, many ways to protect privacy. You can anonymize the data, you can process location data at source so nothing is transmitted. These are just a few examples of what can be done.

In terms of cost, the data transmission costs would be minuscule compared to what most phones do. There would be costs for the units and for enforcement, but if you add all these costs together they are far less than the cost of other tolling technologies. When you compare the cost with the benefits of such a system, the return becomes much clearer. Recurrent congestion costs the region about $1.6 B per year and you could effectively eliminate that with such a system. You could also use the same technology for automated parking where you don't have to fill a meter, dial a phone number and can by the minute.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 3:16 AM
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aberdeen5698 aberdeen5698 is offline
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Originally Posted by WBC View Post
Cents are not going to do it...Are you really going to be bothered by 50c charge for driving downtown? $5 maybe...$10 for sure...
That's the whole point. Introduce the pricing as some small number of cents per km. Keeping the total cost below the radar it makes it easier to sell, and lets you promote the plan with a catchy, positive phrase like "SpeedCents".
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  #14  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 3:19 AM
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Ridiculous fantasy thread should be locked
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  #15  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 3:23 AM
Trainguy Trainguy is offline
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
This infringes on privacy rights on so many levels. I don't know why it is even being discussed. Do people really think this is viable or even smart? Lets not ignore the fact that just running this system would cost hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

Ridiculous idea and shows a great deal of incompetence to even put this up for debate imo.
I have to agree. How do you keep track of everyone's kms? Do we have to check in like Aircare just to have our millage recorded? What if someone changes vehicles? Sounds like an administrative nightmare.

The committee is going to study mobility pricing around the world so it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

Last edited by Trainguy; Jun 8, 2017 at 2:49 PM.
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  #16  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 3:44 AM
dharper dharper is offline
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Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
How is it unfair that people drive more pay more? That's the definition of fair.

I paid a premium to do the right thing and live geographically close to downtown/work and the BC liberals fucked me over by focusing only on infrastructure in the eastern valley. Now my commute is as long as someone who lives in Surrey despite being 10 times closer.
The part I am saying is unfair is, why should the Metro tax me when I drive OUTSIDE the Metro.

If it is Province wide, that's a different story.
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  #17  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 3:59 AM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Alternatively, they could implement open road tolls on roads leading downtown and on all freeways in BC - like a Compass Card for drivers. The same tech can also be utilized for parking.
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  #18  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 4:28 AM
s211 s211 is offline
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
This infringes on privacy rights on so many levels. I don't know why it is even being discussed. Do people really think this is viable or even smart? Lets not ignore the fact that just running this system would cost hundreds of millions of dollars per year.

Ridiculous idea and shows a great deal of incompetence to even put this up for debate imo.
No kidding. Didn't stop poor Gregor being a camera hog at the media event for this announcement, though. Fiddle away, Gregor, you sad little Nero.
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  #19  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 5:19 AM
logicbomb logicbomb is offline
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Something needs to be done to deal with the congestion. It took a few years but Highway #1 is a total parking lot during rushhour- and this will probably worsen with a growing population.

It's not fair that someone from Maple Ridge can take a new bridge and an upgraded road for free while someone coming in from Fraser Heights has to spend near $6.50 a day just to deal with congestion from Cape Horne to Vancouver via the always clogged Burnaby Lake stretch.

I like the idea of general road tolling for the busy highways and crossings. Highway #91, Highway #99, Highway #1, Lougheed etc.
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  #20  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2017, 5:47 AM
retro_orange retro_orange is offline
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Ridiculous fantasy thread should be locked
Aw snowflake, need a hug? move along.
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