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  #1421  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
The subject matter tends to get people a little excited, but I don't see this as being especially controversial. I will add, I don't get why Gendreau wants parents to replace the school-taught curriculum with his material, but I see no reason why parents shouldn't supplement that information with his material if they are so inclined.
I don't necessarily see this as controversial (though the government has more or less told parents who want to take their kids out of sex ed to take a hike) but more interesting as a sign of things to come.
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  #1422  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled (5 - 2) that voting restrictions on expatriate citizens are unconstitutional.

I had forgotten that this matter was still before the courts. The current government reinstated ex-pat voter rights, but the SCC ruling will prevent a rollback by future governments.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...-citizens-are/
Now that sounds like a wildcard.
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  #1423  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 11:14 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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If we’re going to do this we should tax overseas citizens like the US does. Representation without taxation is ridiculous.
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  #1424  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
The Supreme Court of Canada has ruled (5 - 2) that voting restrictions on expatriate citizens are unconstitutional.

I had forgotten that this matter was still before the courts. The current government reinstated ex-pat voter rights, but the SCC ruling will prevent a rollback by future governments.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...-citizens-are/
Ridiculous ruling. Liberal and Conservative governments sold hundreds of thousands of citizenships abroad. What if the @ 300,000 "Canadians" in Hong Kong decided to vote in order to sway an election in China's favour?
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  #1425  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Ridiculous ruling. Liberal and Conservative governments sold hundreds of thousands of citizenships abroad. What if the @ 300,000 "Canadians" in Hong Kong decided to vote in order to sway an election in China's favour?
I've not yet read the ruling, but will be interested to see why five justices thought that it was not reasonable to impose limitations on the constitutional right of expats to vote in Canadian elections and what the two dissenting justices had to say about it (although it's academic since the amended law that recently came into force will allow them to vote anyway).

And yes, if 300,000 Canadians in Hong Kong decided to vote in order to sway an election in China's favour, there is no legal barrier to prevent them from doing so, although that would be the case with or without this SCC decision, given the recent amendment in the law.
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  #1426  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
If we’re going to do this we should tax overseas citizens like the US does. Representation without taxation is ridiculous.
The US is one of only two countries in the world who taxes it's citizens in such a manner. The other 180 (or so) countries all base their tax policies based on where you live, and where you earn your money.

This (US system) creates an onerous burden on ex pats and dual citizens, causing them to have to file tax returns in two separate jurisdictions, with increased legal and accounting costs as the two different returns are reconciled with each other.

I thank God every day that I didn't ultimately pursue dual citizenship (my mother was born in the US). If I had, even though I am a Canadian citizen, live in Canada, and earn all my income in Canada, I still would have had to file a US tax return every year.
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  #1427  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Ridiculous ruling. Liberal and Conservative governments sold hundreds of thousands of citizenships abroad. What if the @ 300,000 "Canadians" in Hong Kong decided to vote in order to sway an election in China's favour?
Why would Hong Kongers vote to sway anything in China's favour? Do you know a single thing about Hong Kong or Canadians residing there? Other than the fact it's a city in China and that many of them are not White and thus do not fit your definition of a Canadian without quotation marks (quite a number of them who reside there are white by the way). Seems like your knowledge of China is limited to Sinophobia and the same repetitive news articles that you post on here ad nauseum with little response.
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  #1428  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 12:53 AM
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acottawa raised an interesting question earlier.

This quote from Road to Wigan Pier (Orwell, 1937, ch 11) sheds some light on the situation, perhaps.

The truth is that, to many people calling themselves Socialists, revolution does not mean a movement of the masses with which they hope to associate themselves; it means a set of reforms which 'we', the clever ones, are going to impose upon 'them', the Lower Orders. On the other hand, it would be a mistake to regard the book-trained Socialist as a bloodless creature entirely incapable of emotion. Though seldom giving much evidence of affection for the exploited, he is perfectly capable of displaying hatred—a sort of queer, theoretical, in vacuo hatred—against the exploiters.

Orwell was a die hard socialist who fought literally (The Spanish Civil War) and figuratively for workers in Britain and all over Europe. He had no ideological ax to grind with his comrades, but to him, the situation was as clear as the nose on his face.

So was it ever really about the poor? Probably to some degree, yes, and those advocates for the working class have accomplished wonderful things in the West. But the more dogma-oriented among them had a completely different agenda: resentment and even hatred of the rich. If you're more successful than me (by whatever measure), you've likely achieved that status by some underhanded means. You didn't work hard and make good decisions, you stole from me.

The proletariate v bourgeoisie dichotomy has largely been replaced by other supposed power relationships ie women v men; gay v straight; coloured v white; minority v majority, etc. It's a repackaged form of Marxism.

Time for the NDP to make it clear where they stand, or they'll remain a Liberal Party clone but with zero chance of victory or even relevance.
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  #1429  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
Why would Hong Kongers vote to sway anything in China's favour? Do you know a single thing about Hong Kong or Canadians residing there? Other than the fact it's a city in China and that many of them are not White and thus do not fit your definition of a Canadian without quotation marks (quite a number of them who reside there are white by the way). Seems like your knowledge of China is limited to Sinophobia and the same repetitive news articles that you post on here ad nauseum with little response.
On the contrary. While you're right, many former HKers I know here are virulently anti-Mainland Chinese, there are also many returnees who have made peace with the fact they can make big bucks by working with the Communist Party. Only the most naive could believe China won't swallow HK whole, as a soon as practical. When push comes to shove, would they side with those next door who provide their livelihood, or with a country thousands of miles away that they couldn't even be bothered to reside in?
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  #1430  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 1:00 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
If we’re going to do this we should tax overseas citizens like the US does. Representation without taxation is ridiculous.
Exactly. If you don't live here, it's normal that you don't have a say.

For example, I can't vote in Alberta elections. That's normal and reasonable.
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  #1431  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post

Time for the NDP to make it clear where they stand, or they'll remain a Liberal Party clone but with zero chance of victory or even relevance.
I was thinking about what a working class platform would look like, and it would probably be a mashup of Harper 2006 (targeted tax cuts and deductions), Wynne 2018 (new entitlement programs, regulation of working conditions ) and Trump 2016 (tarriffs, environmtal deregulation, pipelines).

I couldn’t see something like that getting through the NDP rank and file.
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  #1432  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 5:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I've not yet read the ruling, but will be interested to see why five justices thought that it was not reasonable to impose limitations on the constitutional right of expats to vote in Canadian elections and what the two dissenting justices had to say about it (although it's academic since the amended law that recently came into force will allow them to vote anyway).

And yes, if 300,000 Canadians in Hong Kong decided to vote in order to sway an election in China's favour, there is no legal barrier to prevent them from doing so, although that would be the case with or without this SCC decision, given the recent amendment in the law.
What do we actually vote for in Canada, our local MP's, MLA's, City council? Federally Expat voters need to register in a riding, one they previously resided in or one they have familiar ties to, you can't just cherry pick a riding. Makes block voting by expats unlikely to have much sway on our elections, they are either spread too thinly over many ridings OR concentrated in too few ridings.

Determine your Canadian address for voting purposes

This address determines the riding in which your vote will count.

Your Canadian address for voting purposes can be:

Your last Canadian address (where you lived before leaving Canada), or
The current home address of:
your spouse or common-law partner
a relative of yourself, of your spouse or of your common-law partner*
a person you are a dependant of
a person you would live with if you were living in Canada
*"Common-law partner" means a person who is living with you in a conjugal relationship and has done so for at least one year.


Keep in mind:

It must be a physical address and not a mailing address. You cannot use a post office box or rural route number, except in areas where no physical address is available.
This address cannot be changed once your name is added to the International Register.
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  #1433  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 10:54 PM
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It's very true that the Chinese from the Mainland have very different values, lifestyles, and culture than HK or Taiwanese for that matter. There is an open hostility in HK between the natives and the Mainlanders and it is very evident in Vancouver.
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  #1434  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by CivicBlues View Post
Why would Hong Kongers vote to sway anything in China's favour? Do you know a single thing about Hong Kong or Canadians residing there? Other than the fact it's a city in China and that many of them are not White and thus do not fit your definition of a Canadian without quotation marks (quite a number of them who reside there are white by the way).
It does seem far-fetched that there would be a large number of people who would go through the steps to get citizenship as an adult, move back to China, and influence elections here in a coordinated, significant, and possibly nefarious way. This scenario assumes large number of people are carrying out a coordinated plot for years.

In the Meng Wanzhou case, she had PR and let it expire. I'd imagine most Chinese who come here for a while then move back don't follow Canadian politics or bother voting.

What is that 300,000 number? Does it include people with PR only? They can't vote in elections.

I do think there are some legitimate concerns about specific aspects of the immigration system in Canada, and I don't think it's true that we have to 100% accept every form of citizenship as equally valid or beyond reproach and that racism is the only possible reason to ever dislike any Canadian immigration policies. To give one specific example, in Richmond Hospital there are around 300-400 births to foreign nationals every year. Mostly these are Chinese women giving birth to babies who automatically get Canadian citizenship. In the case where these babies fly back to China shortly thereafter and don't bother coming back here, perfectly valid to question whether it's fair that they get the same rights as somebody who pays taxes here and has no ties to any other country. You don't need to be racist to have a problem with that.
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  #1435  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 11:54 PM
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I guess I'll be voting again this year.

Unfortunately it'll be a vote in Calgary Southeast where the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
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  #1436  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2019, 1:55 AM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
I was thinking about what a working class platform would look like, and it would probably be a mashup of Harper 2006 (targeted tax cuts and deductions), Wynne 2018 (new entitlement programs, regulation of working conditions ) and Trump 2016 (tarriffs, environmtal deregulation, pipelines).

I couldn’t see something like that getting through the NDP rank and file.
Yeah, what a mess.

Re US Tax policy for overseas Americans.

Americans living abroad file taxes every year, but I believe the threshold for actually paying income tax is somewhere around $100,000. So it's a bit irritating, but the vast majority of Americans are not double-taxed. And the US government does sniff around foreign banks quite a bit which makes life harder for the banks and for Americans trying open accounts abroad.

This link lays out the tax situation quite simply.

But, yes, whether or not overseas nationals should get the vote is a good question. A lot people go abroad for a year or two - not sure why they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Non-residents, on the other hand, should not have that privilege, perhaps. But then is that constitutional?
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  #1437  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2019, 3:38 AM
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It does seem far-fetched that there would be a large number of people who would go through the steps to get citizenship as an adult, move back to China, and influence elections here in a coordinated, significant, and possibly nefarious way. This scenario assumes large number of people are carrying out a coordinated plot for years.
That's not what will happen. What will happen is that Canadian political operators will be going to these people and trying to sign them up to vote, particularly (given what seem to be vague requirements for choosing a riding) where they can be packed into highly competitive ridings in Canada.

How much will the government be required to do to allow these voters to vote? Will polling stations be set up all over the world? Or, as seems more likely, will these votes be mailed in -- and if so, how will their authenticity be policed?

How will all these voters affect redistributions and the allocation of ridings among the provinces? Do they count for that or not? This may raise some thorny constitutional issues.

I would probably prefer to limit voting to people who are physically present in Canada. If an expat wants to vote, he or she can come home to do so.
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  #1438  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2019, 6:09 AM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
It does seem far-fetched that there would be a large number of people who would go through the steps to get citizenship as an adult, move back to China, and influence elections here in a coordinated, significant, and possibly nefarious way. This scenario assumes large number of people are carrying out a coordinated plot for years.

In the Meng Wanzhou case, she had PR and let it expire. I'd imagine most Chinese who come here for a while then move back don't follow Canadian politics or bother voting.

What is that 300,000 number? Does it include people with PR only? They can't vote in elections.

I do think there are some legitimate concerns about specific aspects of the immigration system in Canada, and I don't think it's true that we have to 100% accept every form of citizenship as equally valid or beyond reproach and that racism is the only possible reason to ever dislike any Canadian immigration policies. To give one specific example, in Richmond Hospital there are around 300-400 births to foreign nationals every year. Mostly these are Chinese women giving birth to babies who automatically get Canadian citizenship. In the case where these babies fly back to China shortly thereafter and don't bother coming back here, perfectly valid to question whether it's fair that they get the same rights as somebody who pays taxes here and has no ties to any other country. You don't need to be racist to have a problem with that.
The statistic is roughly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadians_in_China300,000 people in Hong Kong with Canadian citizenship. I agree it is ludicrous to think anyone would move back to China/HK with the intent of later influencing Canadian election. However we know the PRC is becoming increasingly an authoritarian nanny state with its "social credit score" and has no qualms about applying pressure to it's citizens.

Of course all 300k would not be susceptible, but look at these election stats on the top 2 for a few key ridings where you could reasonably expect these "canadians" abroad to register:


Richmond Centre
Alice Wong (Con) 17,693
Lawrence Woo (Lib)17,230

Steveston-Richmond East
Joe Peschisolido (Lib) 19,486
Kenny Chiu (Con) 16,630

Burnaby South (where Jagmeet Singh is running)
Kennedy Stewart (NDP): 16,094
Adam Pankratz (Lib): 15,547

Burnaby North-Seymour
Terry Beech (Lib) 18,742
Carol Baird Elan (NDP) 15,225

It would take just 7,367 votes to have flipped those four ridings in BC to a different result. Granted not to one party in every case, but it does show how a relatively small number of "canadians" abroad could flip ridings if organized.
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  #1439  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2019, 7:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
The Working Class is dying a slow, painful death and who speaks for them? Look South - Trump? Really? A (sort of) Republican? This is a massive failure for the Left.

It's the NDP's only hope of ever being relevant again. Not easy but it's worth a shot IMO.
The NDP has been pronounced dead many times but the party both federally and in a number of provinces has comebacks.

Although the federal party is definitely on the decline, it may not be that way in a few years. Provincially the NDP currently is the governing party for BC and Alberta. And the NDP is the official opposition party in Ontario. Also the official opposition in Manitoba and Saskatchewan. So definitely far from dead.
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  #1440  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2019, 7:41 AM
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The people that say that the NDP are dead always have some other hidden agenda, ie. Lieberal Party hack or neo-con dog-whistle trash... The party will always exist to push the centre to the left even if the only times that this actually happens is during minority parliaments. I suspect we're gonna see that scenario play out this fall... I don't see any party grabbing a majority so I have a feeling no matter how few NDP seats are reclaimed they'll be playing kingmaker soon enough.
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