Violent Crime in Winnipeg..

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by Bdog

But isn't it fair to say that for a lot of the people heading to our prisons, survival IS the top priority?

I grew up with these people and know them intimately well . "Survival" in our prisons has nothing to do with any skills useful to our society as a whole. These people may not know any better but that's not because nobody has ever put in any effort . Unfortunately , the "I had a bad childhood so go easy on me" philosophy of dealing with crime has given us a nation of repeat offenders .

Look , for those that think I'm all about locking people up and throwing away the key , that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying . Frankly , for the worst of the worst , those that absolutely refuse to abide by any laws , I don't really care what happens to them .
Those people are NOT the vast majority of criminals though . There is a fair argument to be made that the focus should be on rehabilitation over simple punishment .

Now look at what we have in place today . Even if they're actually given a prison sentence , most of it is shaved off by double-time credit . Why double it ? Because that way it costs us less in the long run . Maybe if we weren't giving people degrees while they were in prison we could save a few bucks ?....you know , just an idea . So first that much time is gone. Then we let the bastards out two-thirds of the way through their sentences . This isn't just a bad idea , it's policy . They don't actually earn this so again , why is this done ? Because it saves money. Of course , the minute they're out they go and do what they've always done but sure , at least we saved a few bucks the first time around . When people can serve a year in prison for cold-blooded , horrible murder , something is seriously wrong with our system.

Repeat offenders need to prove they can function in society . Why is it up to us to act as the canaries in the cave ? This is like testing a bridge's load capacity by opening it to traffic and seeing if it stands up . We KNOW some people are not going to stop being the pieces of crap that they are. We also happen to know WHO they are a lot of the time . Society in general should not have to wait twenty years for criminals to mature and leave their punk attitudes behind .

So no , it's not about punishing everybody as harshly as possible. It's about a system that punishes those that deserve it , rewards those that deserve it , and keeps society safe from the worst of the criminal element . What is so unreasonable about that ?

I can think of a lot of reasons why Arctic prisons are a great idea . They'd be less expensive to run and maintain for one thing . And nobody is suggesting we just toss 'em out onto the tundra and fly away. Well I'm not anyway. All I'm saying is that if anybody here really thinks the average Canadian prison is some sort of third-world hell-hole , then they either have no idea what a third-world hell-hole looks like or they have no idea what life is really like inside a Canadian prison. Given a choice , people wanted in Canada and virtually any other country beg to do their time here . There's no mystery as to why.

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by vid

When you were a grumpy young man, that kind of thing simply wasn't found out about.

Now it is.

Ummmm, Huh?

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Spocket

I grew up with these people and know them intimately well . "Survival" in our prisons has nothing to do with any skills useful to our society as a whole. These people may not know any better but that's not because nobody has ever put in any effort . Unfortunately , the "I had a bad childhood so go easy on me" philosophy of dealing with crime has given us a nation of repeat offenders .

Look , for those that think I'm all about locking people up and throwing away the key , that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying . Frankly , for the worst of the worst , those that absolutely refuse to abide by any laws , I don't really care what happens to them .
Those people are NOT the vast majority of criminals though . There is a fair argument to be made that the focus should be on rehabilitation over simple punishment .

Now look at what we have in place today . Even if they're actually given a prison sentence , most of it is shaved off by double-time credit . Why double it ? Because that way it costs us less in the long run . Maybe if we weren't giving people degrees while they were in prison we could save a few bucks ?....you know , just an idea . So first that much time is gone. Then we let the bastards out two-thirds of the way through their sentences . This isn't just a bad idea , it's policy . They don't actually earn this so again , why is this done ? Because it saves money. Of course , the minute they're out they go and do what they've always done but sure , at least we saved a few bucks the first time around . When people can serve a year in prison for cold-blooded , horrible murder , something is seriously wrong with our system.

Repeat offenders need to prove they can function in society . Why is it up to us to act as the canaries in the cave ? This is like testing a bridge's load capacity by opening it to traffic and seeing if it stands up . We KNOW some people are not going to stop being the pieces of crap that they are. We also happen to know WHO they are a lot of the time . Society in general should not have to wait twenty years for criminals to mature and leave their punk attitudes behind .

So no , it's not about punishing everybody as harshly as possible. It's about a system that punishes those that deserve it , rewards those that deserve it , and keeps society safe from the worst of the criminal element . What is so unreasonable about that ?

I can think of a lot of reasons why Arctic prisons are a great idea . They'd be less expensive to run and maintain for one thing . And nobody is suggesting we just toss 'em out onto the tundra and fly away. Well I'm not anyway. All I'm saying is that if anybody here really thinks the average Canadian prison is some sort of third-world hell-hole , then they either have no idea what a third-world hell-hole looks like or they have no idea what life is really like inside a Canadian prison. Given a choice , people wanted in Canada and virtually any other country beg to do their time here . There's no mystery as to why.

I see your points, but what I was referring too is that many of the younger people today joining gangs are doing it for survival. I worked with youth in the North End for years (in some of the worse areas: Jigtown (Gilbert Park), the D (Lord Selkirk Park). A lot of the young kids are getting involved because they need protection/belonging/etc. It's a lot tougher than most people think living in areas like that without people having your back - ie: you're a lot less likely to be an easy target for a beating/mugging if you're in a gang... I'm clearly not supporting/condoning gangs at all, but what I'm saying is that I've seen a lot of good kids get trapped in this type of lifestyle at a young age (11, 12 even); once you're in, it's obviously pretty tough to get out, no matter how bad they want to. That's what I meant by survival...

I'm all for some type of bootcamp as well (especially for the younger kids), where kids can learn discipline/respect/and other important skills. However, I don't see how having it in the Arctic would be less expensive to maintain and operate, as you assert... Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't it cost more to have to send police/guards/social workers/supplies/etc up north, not too mention how hard it would be for visitors to gain access to family members?

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by Bdog

I see your points, but what I was referring too is that many of the younger people today joining gangs are doing it for survival. I worked with youth in the North End for years (in some of the worse areas: Jigtown (Gilbert Park), the D (Lord Selkirk Park). A lot of the young kids are getting involved because they need protection/belonging/etc. It's a lot tougher than most people think living in areas like that without people having your back - ie: you're a lot less likely to be an easy target for a beating/mugging if you're in a gang... I'm clearly not supporting/condoning gangs at all, but what I'm saying is that I've seen a lot of good kids get trapped in this type of lifestyle at a young age (11, 12 even); once you're in, it's obviously pretty tough to get out, no matter how bad they want to. That's what I meant by survival...

I'm all for some type of bootcamp as well (especially for the younger kids), where kids can learn discipline/respect/and other important skills. However, I don't see how having it in the Arctic would be less expensive to maintain and operate, as you assert... Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't it cost more to have to send police/guards/social workers/supplies/etc up north, not too mention how hard it would be for visitors to gain access to family members?

Well the root causes of gangs aside , let's remember that the word "survival" here is being modified. The way to stay off of a gang's hit list is to simply not interact with them . That , admittedly , is easier said than done for kids who don't know any better . As I said though , survival in this case has little to do with actually staying alive. Bear in mind that the vast majority of kids who get jumped get said beating because of their interactions with gangs .

Now as to the cost ... I guess it depends on what we decide to pay for .
If we take a look at our minimum security "prisons" there's no question that they're cheaper . Look at Milner Ridge . It's not even a prison in the traditional sense (for the most part) My friends who have spent time there have told me exactly what we already know ... it's more like a vacation spot. You get a cabin and spend your days looking for firewood . Why firewood ? Because you need it for the marshmallow roast in the evening . No , I'm not exaggerating . How many of their victims get to spend six months in the country having campfire marshmallow roasts ?
Do we really care if family members and others can actually access the place ? I don't . In fact , it's probably a safe bet that they're part of the problem.

You may be right in that they're actually more expensive . Heck , they may be considerably more expensive to have in the far north . I really don't know. I'm just basing my guess off the fact that you can save a lot of money by not paying for things to actually keep people in the institution . I mean , if you're on Ellesmere Island , the last thing you want to do is run away.
In any case , it's not about the money really. It's the idea that prisons are supposed to be places where people are both punished for their crimes and released as functioning members of society . Certainly Arctic prisons are no cure-all but we could definitely use them to teach some criminals basic social skills necessary for them to become productive members of society .

[chrisallard5454]

Originally Posted by Spocket

Well the root causes of gangs aside , let's remember that the word "survival" here is being modified. The way to stay off of a gang's hit list is to simply not interact with them . That , admittedly , is easier said than done for kids who don't know any better . As I said though , survival in this case has little to do with actually staying alive. Bear in mind that the vast majority of kids who get jumped get said beating because of their interactions with gangs .

Now as to the cost ... I guess it depends on what we decide to pay for .
If we take a look at our minimum security "prisons" there's no question that they're cheaper . Look at Milner Ridge . It's not even a prison in the traditional sense (for the most part) My friends who have spent time there have told me exactly what we already know ... it's more like a vacation spot. You get a cabin and spend your days looking for firewood . Why firewood ? Because you need it for the marshmallow roast in the evening . No , I'm not exaggerating . How many of their victims get to spend six months in the country having campfire marshmallow roasts ?
Do we really care if family members and others can actually access the place ? I don't . In fact , it's probably a safe bet that they're part of the problem.

You may be right in that they're actually more expensive . Heck , they may be considerably more expensive to have in the far north . I really don't know. I'm just basing my guess off the fact that you can save a lot of money by not paying for things to actually keep people in the institution . I mean , if you're on Ellesmere Island , the last thing you want to do is run away.
In any case , it's not about the money really. It's the idea that prisons are supposed to be places where people are both punished for their crimes and released as functioning members of society . Certainly Arctic prisons are no cure-all but we could definitely use them to teach some criminals basic social skills necessary for them to become productive members of society .

That statement is ignorant and completely untrue! Most kids get jumped because they are easy targets, kids get killed when they are involved in gangs... there is a big difference! Please don't assume things when you speak, because every one knows what it means to ass-u-me!

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Spocket

Well the root causes of gangs aside , let's remember that the word "survival" here is being modified. The way to stay off of a gang's hit list is to simply not interact with them . That , admittedly , is easier said than done for kids who don't know any better . As I said though , survival in this case has little to do with actually staying alive. Bear in mind that the vast majority of kids who get jumped get said beating because of their interactions with gangs .

Now as to the cost ... I guess it depends on what we decide to pay for .
If we take a look at our minimum security "prisons" there's no question that they're cheaper . Look at Milner Ridge . It's not even a prison in the traditional sense (for the most part) My friends who have spent time there have told me exactly what we already know ... it's more like a vacation spot. You get a cabin and spend your days looking for firewood . Why firewood ? Because you need it for the marshmallow roast in the evening . No , I'm not exaggerating . How many of their victims get to spend six months in the country having campfire marshmallow roasts ?
Do we really care if family members and others can actually access the place ? I don't . In fact , it's probably a safe bet that they're part of the problem.

You may be right in that they're actually more expensive . Heck , they may be considerably more expensive to have in the far north . I really don't know. I'm just basing my guess off the fact that you can save a lot of money by not paying for things to actually keep people in the institution . I mean , if you're on Ellesmere Island , the last thing you want to do is run away.
In any case , it's not about the money really. It's the idea that prisons are supposed to be places where people are both punished for their crimes and released as functioning members of society . Certainly Arctic prisons are no cure-all but we could definitely use them to teach some criminals basic social skills necessary for them to become productive members of society .

I would argue that it is all about the money... Why don't we lock up violent offenders for longer sentences? Why have 2 for 1 credits? Why the backlog in the courts system? Why do we have overcrowded jails? Why don't the police have the resources they need for more effective crime prevention?

The answer to all these questions (at least in large part) is that there just isn't enough money. The public always complains about the catch and release, people being paroled too early, etc. But, when it comes down to it, do they want to pay more taxes to build new prisons and hire new guards? Do they want to pay higher taxes to pay for more courtrooms, more judges, more lawyers, and do more jury duty? Do they want to pay for more police and more police equipment?

The government has limited resources for police/jails/courts, and so yes, it is about the money. To have the type of system that the public constantly rallies for (more police, longer sentences, more sentences, more cases going to trial), its going to cost a lot more; that money is going to come from the taxpayer. Question is, are they willing to pay?

[vid]

Originally Posted by Bdog

that money is going to come from the taxpayer. Question is, are they willing to pay?

Taxpayers here call firefighters lazy and a waste of money. How about Winnipeg? Real solutions are even more expensive and require an amount of thought to understand. There is no way the voters will go for that. If it takes more than 40 words and 5th grade grammar to explain, Joe Voter doesn't want it. That's the biggest downside of democracy. It isn't very effective when the demos is idiotes.

Originally Posted by Spocket

Certainly Arctic prisons are no cure-all but we could definitely use them to teach some criminals basic social skills necessary for them to become productive members of society .

How exactly are they supposed to achieve that if they are so far removed from the society of which they are supposed to learn to be a part? They do something wrong, and we banish them to the far north to live with a bunch of people who also did somethings wrong in a controlled environment where they basically have no rights and few real responsibilities for anything, and then we expect them to return not like them, but like us? That just doesn't make any sense to me. What am I missing?

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Question is, are they willing to pay?

To put this in perspective, even the simple elimination of two for one that has occurred is now expected to cost $2B over 5 years rather than the $90M originally promised. For that one change alone, that's $12 per Canadian per year.

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

To put this in perspective, even the simple elimination of two for one that has occurred is now expected to cost $2B over 5 years rather than the $90M originally promised. For that one change alone, that's $12 per Canadian per year.

That's a dollar a month. A veritable bargain. I'm willing to pay it. For now. Because...

We'll begin seeing a reduction of bad guys hanging around in remand while their lawyers drag out their court case in anticipation of this wonderful two-for-one sentence discount.

BTW, has anyone ever seen a pervert rape a 6-year-old while in jail?

[grumpy old man]

I've never, ever, heard of a Winnipeg firefighter called lazy. Not once. Not even that Winnipeg firefighter caught boinking someone while on shift. That was mere industrious multi-tasking me thinks.

But this is a Winnipeg forum. I can't believe the fine citizens of Thunder Bay believe that either. I'll just scoot over to the Thunder Bay forum and ask them...

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

That's a dollar a month. A veritable bargain. I'm willing to pay it. For now. Because...

Oh, I also support that change. I'm simply saying that the one simple change costs each of us about $1 a month. Other changes will cost other billions.

[vid]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

BTW, has anyone ever seen a pervert rape a 6-year-old while in jail?

No, but I know of many cases where society lets it happen then deals with it after the fact.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

That's a dollar a month. A veritable bargain. I'm willing to pay it. For now. Because...

I am also willing to pay. However, my point was that many people express frustration and contempt for our justice system, but don't keep in mind the exhorbitant costs associated with implementing some of the most minor reforms (jmt18325 gives an excellent example with the 2 for 1 credits). My question is, when jails are already 30/40% over capacity while being grossly understaffed, where are we going to house all of these criminals? If people want longer sentences, less people out on parole, and the elimination of double-time, they need to be willing to MUCH more in taxes than they are now:

Ironically though, it's often those who want heavy tax cuts that also want a tough on crime approach...

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by vid

No, but I know of many cases where society lets it happen then deals with it after the fact.

I know of none. If where you live allows such heinous crimes to occur, I do not want to live there. Further, if you know of cases where society lets that happen call the fricken police.

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by Bdog

I am also willing to pay. However, my point was that many people express frustration and contempt for our justice system, but don't keep in mind the exhorbitant costs associated with implementing some of the most minor reforms (jmt18325 gives an excellent example with the 2 for 1 credits). My question is, when jails are already 30/40% over capacity while being grossly understaffed, where are we going to house all of these criminals? If people want longer sentences, less people out on parole, and the elimination of double-time, they need to be willing to MUCH more in taxes than they are now:

Ironically though, it's often those who want heavy tax cuts that also want a tough on crime approach...

I express frustration and contempt for our justice system, and for the bleeding hearts that have created our justice system, and I am willing to pay MUCH higher taxes to build more jails so that we can impose longer sentences and eliminate the sentence discounting.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

I know of none. If where you live allows such heinous crimes to occur, I do not want to live there. Further, if you know of cases where society lets that happen call the fricken police.

It's a well known fact that many crimes go unreported. Especially when it's abuse that happens within a family, or with close relatives....

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by grumpy old man

I express frustration and contempt for our justice system, and for the bleeding hearts that have created our justice system, and I am willing to pay MUCH higher taxes to build more jails so that we can impose longer sentences and eliminate the sentence discounting.

Well, you're in the very small minority then. Most people are not willing to pay "MUCH higher taxes"....

[grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Well, you're in the very small minority then. Most people are not willing to pay "MUCH higher taxes"....

Well, I beg to differ then. Most people are willing to pay "MUCH higher taxes"... to keep the scum off our streets.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Bdog

It's a well known fact that many crimes go unreported.

Apparently not too well known, though.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by chrisallard5454

That statement is ignorant and completely untrue! Most kids get jumped because they are easy targets, kids get killed when they are involved in gangs... there is a big difference! Please don't assume things when you speak, because every one knows what it means to ass-u-me!

It's not one bit ignorant . As I said , I grew up with these people in a very hostile environment . I'd wager that I'm infinitely better versed in the thinking of street gangs and the people in them than you are.
Gangs don't target individuals at random . YOU are attributing the actions of the individual to the gang. That's the ignorance you speak of.