Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

This isn't to do with metric at all, but I feel an instinctive resistance to the use of the 24-hour military clock in Quebec to tell the time, e.g. "seize heures" for 4 pm, etc. I wonder, would people in Quebec really not understand you if you said you wanted to meet at "9 o'clock this evening"? Or would that be so unconventional that your Quebec friend, were he or she on a phone to a third friend in your presence, convert what you said to "vingt et une heures"?

I have to do the math in my head and subtract 12 when I hear the time in Quebec, as "20 hundred hours" doesn't register for me right away. I was never a soldier, I guess.

We actually tend to use the 24 hour clock when writing things down and switch automatically to the 12 hours when speaking. ''9 heures du soir'' is very common in informal speech, though you hear ''21 heures'' as well.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

But "6 foot 3" is analogous here. Brits, Canadians and Americans all understand it perfectly, but are hard pressed to visualize an abstraction like 185 cm, which the rest of the world uses while not getting our "6 foot 3."

Absolutely right... I think Andy's a bit blinded by his own habits here. Base ten works a lot better than anything else for units because our numerical system is already set up that way.

"six foot three" is actually less user-friendly than "1.90 m". You have two units in there, instead of one.

Take people who grew up fully metric, and expose them to British units (for currency, temperature, length, etc.) and their reaction is likely going to be a lot worse than Andy's (but opposed, obviously). In other words, everyone thinks that what they happen to be familiar with is more user-friendly than what they aren't, but from a neutral point of view, metric is better.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Absolutely right... I think Andy's a bit blinded by his own habits here. Base ten works a lot better than anything else for units because our numerical system is already set up that way.

"six foot three" is actually less user-friendly than "1.90 m". You have two units in there, instead of one.

Take people who grew up fully metric, and expose them to British units (for currency, temperature, length, etc.) and their reaction is likely going to be a lot worse than Andy's (but opposed, obviously). In other words, everyone thinks that what they happen to be familiar with is more user-friendly than what they aren't, but from a neutral point of view, metric is better.

90% or more of the world seems to be perfectly fine with metric, and doesn't seem to be pining for a change to imperial.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

90% or more of the world seems to be perfectly fine with metric, and doesn't seem to be pining for a change to imperial.

Right now on the jobsite I'm on I have had to do (extremely basic) construction calculations, and for those, metric is clearly better. (For example, using Pythagore's theorem, or doing x * sin y (with x a length, and y an angle).)

You have to switch the measurements to all inches to do those operations.

If you have for example a 12' sling (one of the possible standard lengths in North America where everything is Imperial) making a given angle with the horizontal plane, and you want to know the distance between the end of the sling and the ground, you'll end up with a fractional number of feet.

It's still extremely easy math, sure, but it's unarguably (slightly) more complicated and the risk of error (on a large number of such operations) is therefore greater.

[MolsonExport]

Imperial is retarded next to metric. That said, I still say weight in pounds (rarely ounces, except for beer), and height in feet/inches (need to look at my DL to find the metric equivalent, but I know that I am 5'10"). I mostly use metric for temperature, except when I talk about the temperature of my pool (got it set at 81F in the summer, sounds a lot better than 27C). Distance, kilometres.

I am a bit of an old fart. That said, I am 100% behind the push for metric, and the USA should just haul its ass into the modern era. American exceptionalism, once again.

[1overcosc]

Metric is objectively more logical than imperial, but people who are used to imperial find it harder to use because they're used to an illogical system, essentially. Like a person who spent their whole life typing on an unergonomic keyboard and when switching to a proper keyboard finds it annoying and difficult.

There's a similar sort of thing with English spelling. English has one of the world's stupidest and most illogical systems of phonetics & spelling. The letter "c" for example has no real reason to exist (the sounds it makes would be much better off being written as either 'k' or 's' which are unambiguous), and words like 'brick' and 'click' really don't need both a c and k at the end. Or look at 'knife' and 'climb' with their silent first letter and last letter respectively. Other languages that use the Latin alphabet make much more sense objectively--for example the Irish language, where:
-'s' is always pronounced like the sh in 'brash'
-'c' is always pronounced like the s in 'sat'
-'k' is always pronounced like the k in 'kitten'
But of course English speakers who are used to the English way will think of Irish as confusing and silly, even though they're objectively wrong when you think about it.

And hey, I just brought the topic back to speech

[kool maudit]

Metric System Thriving In Nation's Inner Cities

http://www.theonion.com/articles/met...er-cities,458/

WASHINGTON, DC–Despite other academic shortcomings, inner-city youths possess a firmer grasp of the metric system than their peers in suburban and rural areas, according to a Department Of Education study released Monday.

"While the typical teen has only a vague notion of what a kilogram is, teens in the Cabrini Green housing projects in Chicago and the Watts neighborhood of Los Angeles were thoroughly familiar with this unit of metric measurement," said Ira Danielson, the researcher who spearheaded the study. "They were able to identify a kilogram of weight by merely tossing it back and forth in their hands."

According to Danielson, young people in America's urban centers are so familiar with the kilogram that they have developed a system of abbreviations for the measurement, such as "kilo" or even "ki" (pronounced key).


A Presidential Award For Metric Achievement hangs in an area of Detroit renowned for its metric use.

"Most of the teens, even those reading at a fourth-grade level, were familiar with the gram as a base unit that can be either compounded or divided," Danielson said. "Finally, here's an area where at-risk urban youths can really shine."

In addition to their expertise with grams, urban youths proved knowledgeable about other metric units, including the millimeter, cubic centimeter, and liter.

"They were surprisingly familiar with metric measurements in the medical field, aware that liters of blood are used in an emergency room and that certain medications are injected in cc's or mls," Danielson said. "They also knew a great deal about ounces, but we preferred to focus on their metric expertise."

Danielson said the discovery of the metric knowledge came as "a wonderful surprise."

"A few months ago, we were conducting a study to ascertain the basic skill level of high-school freshmen with poor attendance records–truant 14- to 15-year-olds who hadn't set foot in a classroom in months," Danielson said. "In the course of this study, an amazing pattern of metric expertise emerged among these kids. Upon discovering this pocket of knowledge, we knew we had to explore it further."

In a follow-up study titled "Metric Skills Among The Economically Disadvantaged," Danielson and his team of researchers discovered that not only did the youths score higher in metric knowledge than any other demographic, but many could also distinguish among the smallest variations in size and amount.

In one test, subjects were asked to follow a recipe for "metric-weight chocolate-chip Cookies." Researchers found that the teens had a natural ability to estimate measurements of sugar, flour, and baking powder without using any measuring tools. When the use of a balance scale was required, the teens knew exactly how to operate it.

"Y'all need 500 grams of flour," said Erick Boykins, a 16-year-old study participant from Newark, NJ, scraping out a small pile of flour with a razor. "That's half a kilo right there. Now the recipe says we gotta cut it with 200 g's of sugar."

After combining all the ingredients, Boykins deftly divided the dough into 50 lumps of cookie dough almost identical in weight.

The cookie test was cut short by the disappearance of 25 scales, but results are still being called "conclusive."

Hoping to use the youths' metric zeal as "a springboard to further learning," the Department Of Education has launched "Da Math Skillz" program.

"As any good teacher knows, it's important to start with a foundation of knowledge and build on that," Danielson said. "Our plan is to begin with grams and millimeters, then move on to other metric units like newtons, amperes, and candelas."

The program, however, has run into some early snags.

"The youths seem to have some large blind spots in their knowledge," Danielson said. "For example, they know millimeters very well and can distinguish between something that's 9mm wide and something 7.62mm wide, but for some reason, not one of the teens had ever heard of a hectare. And though they know how much volume a cc represents, none knew it stood for cubic centimeter."

Nevertheless, metric-use advocates were pleased to hear about the new metric-education initiative.

"For some unfathomable reason, the U.S. is the only major industrialized nation in the world not using the metric system," said Dr. Michael Lenzi of UCLA's Center For Statistical Data. "At long last, it appears that the metric system is being embraced by a progressive segment of the population outside the scientific community."

Such trends, Lenzi noted, often originate in major cities before spreading to the rest of the nation.

"While metric awareness is strongest in the cores of Chicago, Los Angeles, and New York, data indicates that it's spreading into smaller cities like Wichita, Portland, and Columbus, and even into the suburbs," Lenzi added. "That's an educational trend you've got to love."

[Nashe]

I love the metric system. I remember (in the 70's) when I was in elementary school, we were probably the first generation taught metric from grade 1 up. The simple elegance of it is undeniable. BUT... unfortunately vestiges of the imperial still linger. Thankfully MPH is fading... but any work in construction or home improvement will have you working with inches still, unfortunately. I hate that. My tape measure has both, and my dad curses at it. I admit to using imperial just because that's what most construction types "speak" (you still buy 2"x4"x8's for example) but I find it quite annoying, and wish they'd switched that en-masse years ago.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Yes, when we were in school and they were introducing metric, we were made to memorize all of those units, but then they never actually materialized anywhere in real life. Maybe in France?

Europe and Asia for sure. It's common to order a 50 cl drink off a menu in France, or to buy some part that's 2.2 dm long in Japan.

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

I love the metric system. I remember (in the 70's) when I was in elementary school, we were probably the first generation taught metric from grade 1 up. The simple elegance of it is undeniable. BUT... unfortunately vestiges of the imperial still linger. Thankfully MPH is fading... but any work in construction or home improvement will have you working with inches still, unfortunately. I hate that. My tape measure has both, and my dad curses at it. I admit to using imperial just because that's what most construction types "speak" (you still buy 2"x4"x8's for example) but I find it quite annoying, and wish they'd switched that en-masse years ago.

I guess for whatever reason the various imperial-sized objects like 2x4s have become an industry standard... they're not going away, and it's easier to just keep calling them by their imperial name rather than their metric equivalent.

I don't get why people are so resistant to using height and weight in metric, at least to describe a person. Whenever I set the bathroom scale to read kgs, my wife switches it back to lbs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I guess for whatever reason the various imperial-sized objects like 2x4s have become an industry standard... they're not going away, and it's easier to just keep calling them by their imperial name rather than their metric equivalent.
.

The reason our construction stuff is all still imperial is because the building materials industry in Canada is paired with the American one. We won't change unless the Americans change.

But in metric countries (ie most of the world) a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood exists just as it does here. It's just called a 1.2 x 2.4...

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The reason our construction stuff is all still imperial is because the building materials industry in Canada is paired with the American one. We won't change unless the Americans change.

The Canadian railway industry continues to use miles instead of kilometers for the same reason.

[Boris2k7]

I think part of the resistance to switching comes from the perception that metric units are somehow more cumbersome to use in speech. For example, a common sideyard measurement is 4' ("four feet") which seems to roll off the tongue easier than 1.22 metres ("one point two two metres"). But we use shortcuts to get around this ("one twenty two" would be pretty standard... another fun way to say this kind of measure is a "a buck twenty two") when you can assume the other party knows what units you are talking about without having to state them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

I think part of the resistance to switching comes from the perception that metric units are somehow more cumbersome to use in speech. For example, a common sideyard measurement is 4' ("four feet") which seems to roll off the tongue easier than 1.22 metres ("one point two two metres"). But we use shortcuts to get around this ("one twenty two" would be pretty standard... another fun way to say this kind of measure is a "a buck twenty two") when you can assume the other party knows what units you are talking about without having to state them.

You're right. But we should recognize that the reason we have to say four feet is because stuff was designed to be four feet long. It could have been a metre long, and then it would be the conversion to imperial that would seem awkward.

It's like a pound of butter that sounds stupid as 455 grams. But had we started out with metric, it would likely be a half-kilo of butter to begin with.

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The reason our construction stuff is all still imperial is because the building materials industry in Canada is paired with the American one. We won't change unless the Americans change.

But in metric countries (ie most of the world) a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood exists just as it does here. It's just called a 1.2 x 2.4...

There are significant portions of construction that are done in metric. Especially wiring.

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You're right. But we should recognize that the reason we have to say four feet is because stuff was designed to be four feet long. It could have been a metre long, and then it would be the conversion to imperial that would seem awkward.

It's like a pound of butter that sounds stupid as 455 grams. But had we started out with metric, it would likely be a half-kilo of butter to begin with.

Absolutely agreed.

[SignalHillHiker]

Kinda cute regarding bilingualism.



Top Reddit comment on it,



She said in one interview her English actually is really bad and her son (raised in U.S.) finds it annoying. "He says to me, Mom, how come after so many years in a country your accent can get worse and worse!"

[kwoldtimer]

Good one on the local news last night about an explosion at a trailer park north of Woodstock. The neighbour they interviewed said the blast "knocked him off the chesterfield". You don't hear that as much as you used to, although growing up, the sofa at home was always referred to as the chesterfield.

[SignalHillHiker]

It's a chesterfield. And davenport if it's at all stylish.

[FrAnKs]

That's the face I had many times in Nova-Scotia & New-Brunswick last summer

How I felt stupid...

[SignalHillHiker]

I talked about this with my friend Glenda on Friday night. I happened to say to her, "You have no accent..."

And she and my friend Joanne almost fell out of their chairs laughing, and she explained, "Ryan, when I come to St. John's, I tone it down. You have no idea what a hick I sound like normally. I'se from de 'ouse on da 'ill. And I'm not even joking. If I'm at my mother's, and I get a call from work, I sometimes keep talking in my natural accent and Steve, my boss, will be like, Glenda, WTF? Where are you?"

When I first moved to the mainland, I got it a lot. But not so much anymore. I've perfected my mainland accent. They can usually guess east coast, but they never grimace or look at me like I'm a performer anymore.