HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Texas & Southcentral > Austin


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 4:04 AM
The ATX's Avatar
The ATX The ATX is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the lights are much brighter
Posts: 12,050
Sadly, Austin's local government is embracing a Californian view on affordable housing. Sound bites and headlines have become more important than the logic of supply and demand. Developers are being blamed for creating expensive properties instead of market forces, so stopping development is a good headline. And if we can get a developer to pay a large fee for creating 5 "affordable" units in their project, everybody "wins". Never mind the fact that 5 units is insignificant and is nothing but a headline, and the extra costs added to the construction of a residential building means the remaining units are thus made even more unaffordable.
__________________
Follow The ATX on X:
https://twitter.com/TheATX1

Things will be great when you're downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 7:49 PM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver
Posts: 5,303
We should simply create a city-wide law that deals with the problem:

(insert % here) of units in every (a or b) development be given at (insert x here) share of (c or d) (e or f) (g or h), (insert exemptions here)

where:

a: multi-family rental and multi-family condo
b: multi-family rental only

c: city-wide
d: neighborhood

e: median
f: mean

g: (affordable for) income level
h: market rate rental price

The goal should be to redistribute poverty such that we don't cluster poverty in any one location. That way, all schools are dealt with and funded equally (because property taxes would eventually equalize). And thus, the poorest among us would get good education regardless of location. Of course, this is only a regional solution, not one that can or should be expropriated to the state or federal government.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 10:53 PM
ATXPhil ATXPhil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by The ATX View Post
Sadly, Austin's local government is embracing a Californian view on affordable housing. Sound bites and headlines have become more important than the logic of supply and demand. Developers are being blamed for creating expensive properties instead of market forces, so stopping development is a good headline. And if we can get a developer to pay a large fee for creating 5 "affordable" units in their project, everybody "wins". Never mind the fact that 5 units is insignificant and is nothing but a headline, and the extra costs added to the construction of a residential building means the remaining units are thus made even more unaffordable.
You and I are on the same page, ATX. It is sad, and very counter productive.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 11:28 PM
ATXPhil ATXPhil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
We should simply create a city-wide law that deals with the problem:

(insert % here) of units in every (a or b) development be given at (insert x here) share of (c or d) (e or f) (g or h), (insert exemptions here)...

The goal should be to redistribute poverty such that we don't cluster poverty in any one location. That way, all schools are dealt with and funded equally (because property taxes would eventually equalize). And thus, the poorest among us would get good education regardless of location. Of course, this is only a regional solution, not one that can or should be expropriated to the state or federal government.
Sorry, wwmiv, I could not disagree more. The state's Robin Hood rule already deals with making sure that schools in poverty districts receive additional funding to bridge the gap in property tax values from schools that are well-funded or over-funded. Social engineering on any level should be discouraged. In fact, I would argue that letting the markets operate in unadulterated capitalism would yield better results. Capitalistic markets ALWAYS correct themselves over time. A great example is the micro-unit development underway on the Eastside (I believe it's on East 5th). The developer saw a need for housing that is more affordable than the $1,800+ rents being charged at most new developments in Austin's core so they are building smaller units with rents that will be around $1,000 so people who would not qualify at $1,800 rents can qualify (without city or Federal subsidies) for their product and still enjoy living in a walkable, Central location.

I work for a local real estate investment firm here in town (we do some development too, but no high-rises) and can tell you first hand how difficult the city makes doing business these days. Many firms like mine recognize that there is a high-demand niche in the market for units that are not over-amenitized and not A++ luxury product. The demand is much higher, meaning that lease up is achieved much more quickly than a luxury product which then means we can sell the project when it is stabilized in a shorter amount of time while also delivering at a lower cots because we're not set on putting granite, quartz, marble, travertine tile, etc. in our developments. The combination of lower upfront cost and exiting in a much faster timeframe means that we can achieve returns that are just as good (or better) than some of the luxury developments. Returns to investors are boosted significantly by achieving a capital event (sale or refinance) in a shorter amount of time. So this is REALLY a "win-win" in that provides a quality, lower-tier product at more affordable rents to the market with a lower-risk investment to us and a shorter hold period.

And trust me when I say many developers are wary of Austin's ability to continue absorbing luxury product given the slow down in job growth and the staggering amount of supply of luxury product that has hit the market in the last 5 years. I strongly believe you will see more development geared towards middle class and low-income tenants in the next several years since it is an underserved market in Austin. This will occur without the city having to force the issue because of natural supply & demand economics. Again, the markets will always correct themselves over time...if the city doesn't interfere...I'm sure that the Brackenridge development for instance will deliver medical office space, housing and hotel space that will interact well with the neighborhood and be complimentary to the Medical School Complex without the city dictating what should be built there. That is the highest and best use of the property which developers are very well aware of and what the market will best embrace there.

On that note, I just read an ABJ article that quoted one of the Central Health representatives saying they were not made aware that a new CVC was being proposed through the project. Our city does not communicate very well either....
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 1:10 AM
hereinaustin hereinaustin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 249
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATXPhil View Post
Sorry, wwmiv, I could not disagree more. The state's Robin Hood rule already deals with making sure that schools in poverty districts receive additional funding to bridge the gap in property tax values from schools that are well-funded or over-funded. Social engineering on any level should be discouraged. In fact, I would argue that letting the markets operate in unadulterated capitalism would yield better results. Capitalistic markets ALWAYS correct themselves over time. A great example is the micro-unit development underway on the Eastside (I believe it's on East 5th). The developer saw a need for housing that is more affordable than the $1,800+ rents being charged at most new developments in Austin's core so they are building smaller units with rents that will be around $1,000 so people who would not qualify at $1,800 rents can qualify (without city or Federal subsidies) for their product and still enjoy living in a walkable, Central location.

I work for a local real estate investment firm here in town (we do some development too, but no high-rises) and can tell you first hand how difficult the city makes doing business these days. Many firms like mine recognize that there is a high-demand niche in the market for units that are not over-amenitized and not A++ luxury product. The demand is much higher, meaning that lease up is achieved much more quickly than a luxury product which then means we can sell the project when it is stabilized in a shorter amount of time while also delivering at a lower cots because we're not set on putting granite, quartz, marble, travertine tile, etc. in our developments. The combination of lower upfront cost and exiting in a much faster timeframe means that we can achieve returns that are just as good (or better) than some of the luxury developments. Returns to investors are boosted significantly by achieving a capital event (sale or refinance) in a shorter amount of time. So this is REALLY a "win-win" in that provides a quality, lower-tier product at more affordable rents to the market with a lower-risk investment to us and a shorter hold period.

And trust me when I say many developers are wary of Austin's ability to continue absorbing luxury product given the slow down in job growth and the staggering amount of supply of luxury product that has hit the market in the last 5 years. I strongly believe you will see more development geared towards middle class and low-income tenants in the next several years since it is an underserved market in Austin. This will occur without the city having to force the issue because of natural supply & demand economics. Again, the markets will always correct themselves over time...if the city doesn't interfere...I'm sure that the Brackenridge development for instance will deliver medical office space, housing and hotel space that will interact well with the neighborhood and be complimentary to the Medical School Complex without the city dictating what should be built there. That is the highest and best use of the property which developers are very well aware of and what the market will best embrace there.

On that note, I just read an ABJ article that quoted one of the Central Health representatives saying they were not made aware that a new CVC was being proposed through the project. Our city does not communicate very well either....
I agree 100%. It's really the market manipulation that forces developers to do things a certain way. The only reason for all the luxury products in our market today is due to the way the city artificially influences the market with its FAR ratios, height limits, CVCs, parking requirements, affordable housing requirements, etc. These city efforts aren't innocent and ultimately serve to force particular types of developments over others.

Even if we only required certain "common sense" things from our developers, our city would naturally develop into a surprisingly affordable and equitable place. It's in the effort to be in control that our city is screwing itself over, just like many other large cities have done before.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 1:26 AM
The ATX's Avatar
The ATX The ATX is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the lights are much brighter
Posts: 12,050
IIRC One Two East had 297 AFFORDABLE senior housing units when it was first announced - not to mention a grocery store that would have benefited the entire neighborhood. But the NIMBYs and and their favorite city council member ignored that fact because the building was a little bit taller than zoning allowed. This is in itself proof that the city cares more about protecting high real estate prices over affordable housing. But I think the developer should have done a much better job in in promoting that project as an affordable housing project with local media. Before One Two East was killed, I remember seeing a banner that said say no to One Two East on the balcony on the top floor of a neighboring mid-rise apartment building. Talk about hypocrisy.
__________________
Follow The ATX on X:
https://twitter.com/TheATX1

Things will be great when you're downtown.

Last edited by The ATX; Feb 21, 2017 at 4:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 1:38 AM
drummer drummer is offline
World Traveler
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Austin metro area
Posts: 4,480
That sort of thing makes me sad.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 1:39 AM
ATXPhil ATXPhil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 29
Yep. The council member that proposed the four CVC extensions that may possibly impact the Brackenridge development is Ora Houston (surprise, surprise). She said it is in the interest of "equality" so that East Austin residents can have the same Capitol views as people in other parts of the city. As ATX pointed out, "equality" is one of the nice soundbites our politicians use to justify their bullshit proposals. Read between the lines, this is being done to limit height and density just East of the highway to appease the NIMBYs that killed the One Two East project and other NIMBYs that are keeping the Plaza Saltillo office tower from getting approval up to 125' (which would mean a 10-story tower could be built). I believe the approval for the PS project was capped at 70' (6 stories). All of East Central Austin is going to be a painfully identical 5-6 stories for blocks upon blocks upon blocks, with the current restrictions which isn't protecting anyone's views in the long run...Ora Houston's proposal was heavily backed by Kathie Tovo who is an old-guard Austinite that HATES development and growth, fighting it at every chance she gets at City Hall. So I'm going to say again - WHY DO WE KEEP RE-ELECTING THESE F****** MORONS!?!?!?!?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 4:01 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver
Posts: 5,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATXPhil View Post
Sorry, wwmiv, I could not disagree more. The state's Robin Hood rule already deals with making sure that schools in poverty districts receive additional funding to bridge the gap in property tax values from schools that are well-funded or over-funded. Social engineering on any level should be discouraged. In fact, I would argue that letting the markets operate in unadulterated capitalism would yield better results. Capitalistic markets ALWAYS correct themselves over time. A great example is the micro-unit development underway on the Eastside (I believe it's on East 5th). The developer saw a need for housing that is more affordable than the $1,800+ rents being charged at most new developments in Austin's core so they are building smaller units with rents that will be around $1,000 so people who would not qualify at $1,800 rents can qualify (without city or Federal subsidies) for their product and still enjoy living in a walkable, Central location.

I work for a local real estate investment firm here in town (we do some development too, but no high-rises) and can tell you first hand how difficult the city makes doing business these days. Many firms like mine recognize that there is a high-demand niche in the market for units that are not over-amenitized and not A++ luxury product. The demand is much higher, meaning that lease up is achieved much more quickly than a luxury product which then means we can sell the project when it is stabilized in a shorter amount of time while also delivering at a lower cots because we're not set on putting granite, quartz, marble, travertine tile, etc. in our developments. The combination of lower upfront cost and exiting in a much faster timeframe means that we can achieve returns that are just as good (or better) than some of the luxury developments. Returns to investors are boosted significantly by achieving a capital event (sale or refinance) in a shorter amount of time. So this is REALLY a "win-win" in that provides a quality, lower-tier product at more affordable rents to the market with a lower-risk investment to us and a shorter hold period.

And trust me when I say many developers are wary of Austin's ability to continue absorbing luxury product given the slow down in job growth and the staggering amount of supply of luxury product that has hit the market in the last 5 years. I strongly believe you will see more development geared towards middle class and low-income tenants in the next several years since it is an underserved market in Austin. This will occur without the city having to force the issue because of natural supply & demand economics. Again, the markets will always correct themselves over time...if the city doesn't interfere...I'm sure that the Brackenridge development for instance will deliver medical office space, housing and hotel space that will interact well with the neighborhood and be complimentary to the Medical School Complex without the city dictating what should be built there. That is the highest and best use of the property which developers are very well aware of and what the market will best embrace there.

On that note, I just read an ABJ article that quoted one of the Central Health representatives saying they were not made aware that a new CVC was being proposed through the project. Our city does not communicate very well either....
Your fundamental mistake is to (a) assume that markets correct themselves to remedy any form of segregation, (b) to assume that my primary concern was about education policy, and (c) believing that I am motivated by lack of supply to lower income as a normative concern rather than the normative concern I actually do have: the distribution of where the supply for lower income units is located geographically.

In fact, my primary concern is the geographic concentration of poverty which has significant negative systemic ramifications, only ONE of which is unequal education --- which Robin Hood seeks to remedy. However, the Robin Hood remedy is only a band aid and does not solve the underlying problem: the fact that poor people are geographically isolated from rich people. My aim is squarely at the underlying problem, rather than creating a band aid to cover up the problem: by redistributing where poor people live, so that they are not concentrated in any one particular area. In other words, we get rid of the "ghetto-ization" of systemic poverty.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 2:39 PM
H2O H2O is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,597
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
We should simply create a city-wide law that deals with the problem:

(insert % here) of units in every (a or b) development be given at (insert x here) share of (c or d) (e or f) (g or h), (insert exemptions here)

where:

a: multi-family rental and multi-family condo
b: multi-family rental only

c: city-wide
d: neighborhood

e: median
f: mean

g: (affordable for) income level
h: market rate rental price

The goal should be to redistribute poverty such that we don't cluster poverty in any one location. That way, all schools are dealt with and funded equally (because property taxes would eventually equalize). And thus, the poorest among us would get good education regardless of location. Of course, this is only a regional solution, not one that can or should be expropriated to the state or federal government.
A city-wide law could not be put in place because inclusionary zoning is illegal in the State of Texas. It would require a change of policy (and ruling party) at the state level before that could even be considered.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 11:08 PM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver
Posts: 5,303
Inclusionary zoning is illegal in Texas? Wow. That's sad.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 1:52 AM
ATXPhil ATXPhil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 29
I don't want to get into a long political debate on a thread that is supposed to be about Brackenridge so I'm going to stop on that front...

On the note of Brackenridge, if there is ONE project that I think council would allow for higher FARs (especially if they wipe out half the density potential with a CVC extension) our of any proposed project right now it is probably this one. There is a stigma attached to the Medical School Complex in town. If the group selected puts a proposal together that brings street level interaction with the neighborhood like the farmer's market in the renderings, coupled with rental housing units, medical-oriented office space to compliment the Medical Complex and possibly a world-class hotel operation (like a Ritz-Carlton) I could actually see the city approving increased FARs without as many strings attached. Hopefully we'll get at least one building even taller than "up to 40 stories" in the end.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 3:45 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver
Posts: 5,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATXPhil View Post
There is a stigma attached to the Medical School Complex in town.
And what data do you have to support this assertion?

None, because that data doesn't exist.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 4:00 AM
The ATX's Avatar
The ATX The ATX is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the lights are much brighter
Posts: 12,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
And what data do you have to support this assertion?

None, because that data doesn't exist.
In certain circles there is some resentment that local taxes were used to pay for something that U.T. should have done on their own dime.
__________________
Follow The ATX on X:
https://twitter.com/TheATX1

Things will be great when you're downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 5:02 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver
Posts: 5,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by The ATX View Post
In certain circles there is some resentment that local taxes were used to pay for something that U.T. should have done on their own dime.
What circles? Who? Where?

Can we stop speaking in innuendo and actually provide the info?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 5:11 AM
The ATX's Avatar
The ATX The ATX is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the lights are much brighter
Posts: 12,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
What circles? Who? Where?

Can we stop speaking in innuendo and actually provide the info?
I had a boss once that demanded that everything had to be immediately available in a spreadsheet or a Power Point presentation before he could make a decision. He sucked, and lost his job because he lacked the common sense and intuition needed to make quick business decisions. Whether or not that's applicable to this discussion is debatable. But you are obviously an academic who relies on such things and I'm guessing ATXPhil not so much. In either case I'm not taking sides, just making an observation based on my personal experience.
__________________
Follow The ATX on X:
https://twitter.com/TheATX1

Things will be great when you're downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 5:23 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago -> Austin -> Denver
Posts: 5,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by The ATX View Post
I had a boss once that demanded that everything had to be immediately available in a spreadsheet or a Power Point presentation before he could make a decision. He sucked, and lost his job because he lacked the common sense needed to make quick business decisions. Whether or not that's applicable to this discussion is debatable. But you are obviously an academic who relies on such things and I'm guessing ATXPhil not so much. In either case I'm not taking sides, just making an observation based on my personal experience.
It's not, and although I am an academic (who has plenty of private sector employment experience, thank you very much -- nor have I ever been fired from a position. In fact, the opposite: I've been promoted at every place I've ever worked) I don't need data available in a spreadsheet or powerpoint presentation to come to a decision or viewpoint.

Rather, I was simply pointing out (perhaps inartfully) that there really hasn't been any vocal opposition anywhere to the new medical school. There's pretty much NO evidence that anyone can point to in support of the idea of some mythical opposition, because that evidence doesn't exist.

Don't come at me bruh.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 5:33 AM
The ATX's Avatar
The ATX The ATX is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Where the lights are much brighter
Posts: 12,050
I'm not coming at you bruh. I think we both we agree that public money for this project was not a bad thing, even though U.T. could have done this on their own. Apple could have built their North Austin campus without help from the tax payers as well. But incentives is how the game is played.
__________________
Follow The ATX on X:
https://twitter.com/TheATX1

Things will be great when you're downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 6:31 AM
lzppjb's Avatar
lzppjb lzppjb is offline
7th Gen Central Texan
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 3,144
It's entirely possible that both Phil and ATX, who live in/around Austin, have come into contact with people that have these feelings re: Brackenridge. There wouldn't be any data to provide like a link to an article.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 5:58 PM
Novacek Novacek is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by lzppjb View Post
It's entirely possible that both Phil and ATX, who live in/around Austin, have come into contact with people that have these feelings re: Brackenridge. There wouldn't be any data to provide like a link to an article.
There have been a few articles around at least one opposed group (probably a small minority)

http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/...-transparency/
http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/...entral-health/
http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/...nds-continues/

https://communityimpact.com/austin/e...edical-school/
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Texas & Southcentral > Austin
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:38 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.