Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by Spocket

Actually, it was $70 million and it was pretty much the exact same thing as we're getting right now.
You could argue that it would have cost more than $70 million but it still wouldn't have cost as much as it does today. Plus we'd already have it.

As well, please,...just stop with this crap about Katz's $130 million dollars in upgrades. Not only is there no sign of them, there wouldn't be since that figure isn't any great departure from the usual budget. In adjusted dollars it's like a seven percent increase which is being whittled away by rising fuel costs anyway.
Katz might not be making things worse for transit but he's not really making things any better either. We waited how many years for him to give us what we already had coming before he took office ? Gee Katz...thanks. Now it costs that much more.

Nothing was coming before ... it was all talk. Period!! Murray was far from the first mayor to sugest the city build a rapid transit system. It went all the way back to the 60's .. if not earlier. Murray was BS'ing and you ate it up .. yeah yeah that sounds good. Hey if you liked Murray you must of love Bill Norrie... what a visonary.

First of all Murray's phantom plan was to be $50 Million ... and Doer admitted there was very little in the way of a actual capaital spending plan. A classic Murray project. No Plan ... just make blind statements.. no plan... no capital spending forcasts. He was an idiot. His plan was also supposed to include some form of magnet tracking busses. All for a fraction of the cost of reality... yes he was a hell of a dreamer. Hey maybe Murray was a Magic Mayor. Too bad he couldn't convert those dreams into anything tangible.

Second of all .. if you look at the capital spending budgets you will see that transit has recieved 130 million for upgrades ... not including the recent $135M Rapid Transit annoucement. Those include the current purchaes of new busses with air conditioning .. GPS tracking ... upgrades to major stops, including electrical time boards. It all on Winnipeg.ca to see for yourself.


I realize that you can't stand that Katz has done what no other mayor in the city's history had been able to do, but lets give him full credit.

1) Katz has revitalized the city economy ... now among the very top, from a point of weakness when he took over. The city is much more able to afford new capital projects than it was under Murray's mismanagement of the city's finances. Or have you forgotten the 400+ million dollar Norwood bridge that was suppose to cost 130 million. Ahhh how soon the blind socialists forget. He was the kind of waste and bowing down to the big city unions, all socialists love

2) Improved the business enviroment .. business capital spending is at record levels in WInnipeg these days. When Katz took over Winnipeg was seeing a fraction of the current amount.

3) He has brought Rapid Transit to the city. His commitment a real plan with real capital cost layouts. .. he has a real budget for this project.. and has indicated where the line will go, including stations.

All in all I would say he has accomplished alot in his first 4 years. The only thing that could make me happier is if this Transit project is contracted out to private development.

[newflyer]

All the hoopla aside ...

I just rode the Calgary "rapid" transit sytem for over an hour to get home. I think the romanic fantasy of Rapid Transit will end soon after it is up and running.


It not the dream you all think it is... its a hot, conjested mess which breaks down far too often. People here call it the Cattle Car ... or the sardeen can.I think I'd prefer to take an express bus, but can't because the Rapid Transit system allowed the city to re-organize its routes so you pretty well have to take the train to get anywhere. Yippee.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by newflyer

All the hoopla aside ...

I just rode the Calgary "rapid" transit sytem for over an hour to get home. I think the romanic fantasy of Rapid Transit will end soon after it is up and running.


It not the dream you all think it is... its a hot, conjested mess which breaks down far too often. People here call it the Cattle Car ... or the sardeen can.I think I'd prefer to take an express bus, but can't because the Rapid Transit system allowed the city to re-organize its routes so you pretty well have to take the train to get anywhere. Yippee.

I've taken quite a few trips on the C-train in the last couple of years, and quite frankly, I find it very efficient to get around on. The only issue is the need to expand the system, which they are working on aggressively.

Edmonton's LRT system is very small, but they are finally aggressively expanding it from north to south, and also adding additional routes travelling east-west across the city. I find that generally, these systems are efficient in transporting people from point A to B.

I'm sorry, but I've ridden Calgary's BRT, and it is absolutely shit. All of it's system is in the streets with regular commuter cars, and it is hardly rapid. Only portions of Winnipeg's BRT will be on dedicated roadways, but a huge chunk of it will also be on the streets with regular commuter cars, sitting in traffic. Yeah, that's real "rapid"

BRT should only be a temporary solution until some form of rail-based system can be implemented. Otherwise, it really is a waste of money.

[flatlander]

Originally Posted by newflyer

All the hoopla aside ...

I just rode the Calgary "rapid" transit sytem for over an hour to get home. I think the romanic fantasy of Rapid Transit will end soon after it is up and running.


It not the dream you all think it is... its a hot, conjested mess which breaks down far too often. People here call it the Cattle Car ... or the sardeen can.I think I'd prefer to take an express bus, but can't because the Rapid Transit system allowed the city to re-organize its routes so you pretty well have to take the train to get anywhere. Yippee.

Do you work in communications for New Flyer? Because i've never heard that buses are more comfortable than rail except from a bus company.

I too was in Calgary last weekend and rode the C train extensively. It is extremely comfortable compared to buses. They didn't appear to be air conditioned and it was a warm day but I'm sure it was no worse than the bus.

Ask anybody who actually worked on the BRT project - its almost identical to the Murray proposal. The only thing different is the cost.

[thegreattait]

Ohh yes the "Cattle Car" I've ridden on the C-Train a number of times some at rush hour some not. All I have to say is that Calgary would come to a stop as we know it, if they didn't have LRT. Calgary is faced with a good problem, too many people use their public transportation systerm. I believe Calgary's LRT has the highest per capita ridership for any LRT system in the world.

Calgary should be using that oil money to build a subway and Winnipeg should have an LRT. I'm in Novosibirsk Russia right now a city of 1.5 million similar in size to calgary and their Subway is amazing, safe efficient and fast. As someone who is living here without a car I can honestly say who needs one when you have rapid transit like this. Heated stations and underground walkways,with retail inside the tunnel system that leads to the stations. Tons of TOD surrounding the sites with more construction going up all the time (centered around the metro stations of coarse). This in a city which I believes has as much a car culture as North America. Gas here is cheap at around $1 a liter.

I guess the point of all this is to say that large investments in rapid transit have long term benefits. Yes there are huge costs associated with them, but in order to realize significant growth and to make a city livable as it expands, it is absolutely necessary. This city is what Winnipeg would be like if not for the Panama Canal. It was founded 20 years after ours in 1893 and was the youngest city in the world to reach a million people. They've had set backs along the way similar to Winnipeg but it seems like they kept planning for bigger and better things. Something Winnipeg needs to start doing more of and continuing that bit that we seem to be building right now.

This is not a time to think small, if we build for mediocrity we can only ever achieve mediocrity. We should be building LRT as an investment in our city. Not BRT as some stop gap measure that will do nothing to spur development and won't allow our city to grow they way it wants and needs to. With our diversified economy, culturally diverse population, excellent immigration programs, new business investments and an energized and creative business professionals, Winnipeg has all that we need to become a truly great city, now we just need the leaders to set that in motion and not stiffle our growth with short sighted narrow minded thinking.

[1ajs]

the ctrain has a magic feel to it its an extreamly handy part of the cagary system... i have used it 100's of times not joking... as a kid when i would go vist my grandma out in cal we would go to foot hills everyday and feed him

catch the 3 at 4th and 25th get off at eatons walk over to the ctrain get off a lions gate ketch the 101? can't remeber the name of the bus that goes to foothills from lions gate they changed them a bit since i was last there.... but the one thing i have always found to be a pain in calgary is the lack of a conection to the airport but we have had this discusion befor...

[Reed Solomon]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

the ctrain has a magic feel to it its an extreamly handy part of the cagary system... i have used it 100's of times not joking... as a kid when i would go vist my grandma out in cal we would go to foot hills everyday and feed him

my what big ears you have.

[1ajs]

went to go feed my grandpa he had parkinsons...

[Reed Solomon]

Originally Posted by newflyer

Nothing was coming before ... it was all talk. Period!! Murray was far from the first mayor to sugest the city

So Glen Murray and Sam Katz are both on the same page at the moment, though even if you say Murray's plan was all talk, Theres not much difference between it and Katz's transit in concept.

capital spending budgets you will see that transit has recieved 130 million for upgrades ... not including the recent $135M Rapid Transit annoucement. Those include the current purchaes of new busses with air conditioning .. GPS tracking ... upgrades to major stops, including electrical time boards. It all on Winnipeg.ca to see for yourself.

Well its taken quite a while since he got into power for the Transit upgrades to work their way through. The air conditioned buses are nice if you can get em. Aside from having that STUPID YELLOW TAPE that doesnt work. Can't we buy buses from a company that isn't newflyer?

I realize that you can't stand that Katz has done what no other mayor in the city's history had been able to do, but lets give him full credit.

Hasn't done it just yet there. We'll have to wait til 2013 to find out.

1) Katz has revitalized the city economy ... now among the very top, from a point of weakness when he took over. The city is much more able to afford new capital projects than it was under Murray's mismanagement of the city's finances. Or have you forgotten the 400+ million dollar Norwood bridge that was suppose to cost 130 million. Ahhh how soon the blind socialists forget. He was the kind of waste and bowing down to the big city unions.

I don't buy it. I don't see businesses begging to come to Winnipeg. Until I do, it amounts to nothing. I suppose you can and should blame the NDP, but all the same, I'm living here and I don't see much of what you're seing.

3) He has brought Rapid Transit to the city. Has commited has a real plan with real capital cost layouts. .. he has a real budget for this project.. and has indicated where the line will go, including stations.

People were saying the same thing with Glen Murray.

All in all I would say he has accomplished alot in his first 4 years. The only thing that could make me happier is if this Transit project is contracted out to private development.

Well, I don't hate Katz and worship at the altar of Murray, neither am I the opposite. I hope you're right and something substantial comes of this, hopefully even rail. It probably will happen if the Stadium gets built out by the U of M though.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by Reed Solomon

So Glen Murray and Sam Katz are both on the same page at the moment, though even if you say Murray's plan was all talk, Theres not much difference between it and Katz's transit in concept.

Well its taken quite a while since he got into power for the Transit upgrades to work their way through. The air conditioned buses are nice if you can get em. Aside from having that STUPID YELLOW TAPE that doesnt work. Can't we buy buses from a company that isn't newflyer?

Hasn't done it just yet there. We'll have to wait til 2013 to find out.


I don't buy it. I don't see businesses begging to come to Winnipeg. Until I do, it amounts to nothing. I suppose you can and should blame the NDP, but all the same, I'm living here and I don't see much of what you're seing.

People were saying the same thing with Glen Murray.


Well, I don't hate Katz and worship at the altar of Murray, neither am I the opposite. I hope you're right and something substantial comes of this, hopefully even rail. It probably will happen if the Stadium gets built out by the U of M though.

... I think we have not heard the end of the rapid transit announcements .. there may be more to come... but than again I could be wrong.

[ILYR]

Large urban transit (From Stats Canada)

July 2008 (preliminary)Previous release
Combined ridership on 10 large urban transit systems in Canada was 4.9% higher in July than it was for the same month in 2007.

Approximately 108.5 million passenger trips were taken on these transit systems in July. These systems account for about 80% of total urban transit in Canada.

The trips generated $195.0 million in revenue in July (excluding subsidies), up 9.4% over July 2007.

I am curious to see how well Winnipeg Transit did, e.g. above or below the national average.

[madsad]

-Calgary's C-Train light rail system is currently operating far beyond capacity. It was designed for a city with a smaller population and its "sardine can" conditions are not a function of being a rapid transit service. It is a result of poor foresight in anticipating current ridership trends. The system is built at grade through the downtown with stations that only support 3-car trains. Two lines also converge on the downtown tracks, meaning frequencies cannot be increased beyond every 3-4 minutes. If anything, the overcrowded trains are an indication of success of rapid transit and progressive parking policies in luring people out of their cars and on to trains.

-A P3 solution is definitely worth considering. Having a private company take over the cost-overruns and risks of building a rapid transit system, in exchange for the government agency paying a little extra in payment interest may be worth it. Private enterprise, however, would struggle to operate a transit service. Transit agencies in North America are subsidized by government anywhere from 40 to 80 percent of operating costs. There is no profits to be had. A private company, such as Veolia, or First Bus, could operate the BRT buses and provide the drivers on contract to Winnipeg Transit. This may cause some grief with the current, unionized employees, and private service providers often have poor employee relations, which results in frequent job action and service disruption. One doesn't have to stay in London too long before one experiences job action by the private bus employees there...

[drew]

Originally Posted by Reed Solomon

Can't we buy buses from a company that isn't newflyer?

Buying buses from New Flyer, regardless of their minor design faults keeps all the money within the Winnipeg region (salaries, taxes, spin-offs, etc.)

It would absolutely retarded for the city to buy buses from another manufacturer based somewhere else, when an existing industry already exists here...

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by drew

Buying buses from New Flyer, regardless of their minor design faults keeps all the money within the Winnipeg region (salaries, taxes, spin-offs, etc.)

It would absolutely retarded for the city to buy buses from another manufacturer based somewhere else, when an existing industry already exists here...

Exactly.

Winnipeg Transit could buy from Novabus if they would, but they can't, so they won't.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by drew

Buying buses from New Flyer, regardless of their minor design faults keeps all the money within the Winnipeg region (salaries, taxes, spin-offs, etc.)

It would absolutely retarded for the city to buy buses from another manufacturer based somewhere else, when an existing industry already exists here...

Why should Winnipeg taxpayers subsidize New Flyer, which is a private company? We subsidized them more than long enough when they were owned by the Province. If you tell New Flyer in advance that they've got the Winnipeg market locked up, what incentive do they have to provide Winnipeg with high-quality, innovative products? The purpose of Winnipeg Transit is to provide the best possible transit for Winnipeg at the lowest price, not to provide corporate welfare to New Flyer.

[/lecture]

[1ajs]

winnipeg saves money buying localy

[Kinguni]

Winnipeg saves money buying the buses as basic as they come too.

[JayM]

Originally Posted by The Jabroni

Exactly.

Winnipeg Transit could buy from Novabus if they would, but they can't, so they won't.

Well what i think is kinda stupid why buses from eastern Canada. I have noticed some western cities have done so, wouldn't it be cheaper to get more locally and less distant. Regina has a few NovaBuses trying something different i guess other then New Flyer.

[wpgcityone]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Why should Winnipeg taxpayers subsidize New Flyer, which is a private company? We subsidized them more than long enough when they were owned by the Province. If you tell New Flyer in advance that they've got the Winnipeg market locked up, what incentive do they have to provide Winnipeg with high-quality, innovative products? The purpose of Winnipeg Transit is to provide the best possible transit for Winnipeg at the lowest price, not to provide corporate welfare to New Flyer.

[/lecture]

33 buses a year out of a total of over 2500 isn't exactly subsidizing the whole company, and Winnipeg Transit also buys some of the most basic buses that we (New Flyer) make.

[DAVEinEDMONTON]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

winnipeg saves money buying localy

If you can believe Wikipedia, Winnipeg Transit purchased a number of busses from Edmonotn or Calgary on three seperate occassions as those cities opened or expanded their LRT systems and therefore required a smaller bus fleet.

Maybe Winnipeg has a plan to do the same thing once the LRT systems expand again in Edmonton and Calgary.